quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qUXoNUzAyvk

I believe this video has been posted before. This sums up for me the difference between mechanical perfection and low end doubles that are "good enough". This is why it "functions" better to me. You may not be able to tell the difference in group size or various other criteria but it exists none the less.

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qUXoNUzAyvk

I believe this video has been posted before. This sums up for me the difference between mechanical perfection and low end doubles that are "good enough". This is why it "functions" better to me. You may not be able to tell the difference in group size or various other criteria but it exists none the less.

I guess this is just something many of us will never agree on. To me, the words "mechanical" and "perfection" do not ever belong together. Nothing mechanical is ever perfect. It's all a matter of tolerances , strength, function, etc. Secondly, if there is no difference in reliability , group size, shooter fitment , strength, etc., then I do not consider one better than the other--just more expensive. Unless perhaps it elevates one's spirit, and if that is the case, no price tag can be put on it.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qUXoNUzAyvk

I believe this video has been posted before. This sums up for me the difference between mechanical perfection and low end doubles that are "good enough". This is why it "functions" better to me. You may not be able to tell the difference in group size or various other criteria but it exists none the less.

I guess this is just something many of us will never agree on. To me, the words "mechanical" and "perfection" do not ever belong together. Nothing mechanical is ever perfect. It's all a matter of tolerances , strength, function, etc. Secondly, if there is no difference in reliability , group size, shooter fitment , strength, etc., then I do not consider one better than the other--just more expensive. Unless perhaps it elevates one's spirit, and if that is the case, no price tag can be put on it.

I think there ARE differences. I believe the detail shown in the H&H video of extensive hand filing, sanding, testing with blackened parts, etc. demonstrates an extreme attention to detail that very definitely does lead to closer tolerances and longer lasting quality under heavy use. On the issue of reliability, I think one must view that issue over a period of time and degree of use. If you do a search here on AR, Sam Rose, who is one of the more informed Double Rifles guys that once graced this forum, has and does own a wide variety of double rifles, including a Sabatti. For quite some time, Sam raved about how his Sabatti shot lights out and was a quality weapon, etc, etc. Sam, is a shooter and as such, put a lot more bullets down those barrels in test and field conditions than the vast majority of DR owners. At some point, his Sabatti basically disintegrated with solder coming apart and other issues. I don't remember them all but you could search for the thread and find it pretty easily I suppose. Anyway, he's had a hell of a time getting Sabatti to address his issues. At the time of his last post on the subject, he had no idea when or if he would get the rifle back and if so, if it would be in functional condition. And looking at that H&H video where they are working with the fitment gun, turning a bolt here, there, etc. to get the gun to exactly match the shooter's body and therefore throw the shot on target as a function of how the gun comes to the shoulder vice how the shooter just aligns the sights to compensate, is the very essence of using a double in the first place. No "off the shelf" stock compromised to fit most people "pretty well" can match that. I'd be a Kreighoff guy for sure if I could find one that the stock fit me. So far, I haven't. In fact, the Chapuis doesn't fit me very well either. Both of those guns have a too high comb for my physical dimensions. For the some reason, the Merkel, with it's greater drop at heel and lower comb, fits me almost perfectly. My VC was custom measured and fits better still. I had a previous VC that was "off the shelf" in 577NE. It had a too short LOP and too high comb as well and didn't fit. Some will find the Sabatti dimensions fit them better than the Merkel. Regardless, a custom build stock WILL fit better.

So yeah, I think there are some very real differences to be noted between the quality of these guns, other than simply how pretty one is vs the other. And I say that, despite some labeling me as an elitist, as a guy who doesn't own any of the upper end rifles. I'm a Merkel, Chapuis, VC kind of guy. Not even Hyem! For me, I see value in a rifle that's "good enough". It works for me. There is a point of diminishing returns in going up the ladder of quality. Not uncommon in other products as well. Take Guitars for example. Gibson is one of premier, top of the line guitar makers (think WR or H&H). They typically start at around $5,000 and go up. Epiphone (think of Chapuis, VC, Searcy), which is now owned by Gibson, will provide you with a guitar that looks identical to the Gibson. You can opt for the same pickups and other hardware that's on the similar Gibson model with the only difference in the end being possibly the tonal quality of the wood the instrument is built with and maybe the feel in the fretting hand of the neck shape/size and fretboard itself. All this for around $700. Play the two guitars and you'll see there IS a difference, although slight enough that only a true professional could really benefit from the performance difference. So you get 90% of the guitar for about 1/8th of the price. Diminishing returns as you go up! You can also buy a "Chibson" made in China, that looks exactly like the Gibson, but starts experiencing "issues" after a couple of years of hard use, all for $150 or so. That law of diminishing returns goes both ways when taken to the extreme!

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Todd:
Great minds think alike. I'm currently shopping for a hollow body electric and the Gibson 335 series is my absolute favorite. However, I've looked at Epiphone for the reasons you mentioned.

Shootaway:
You're an absolute Richard Cranium. With posts such as above, it is no wonder why you are the most despised poster here on AR.

Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

Shootaway:
You're an absolute Richard Cranium. With posts such as above, it is no wonder why you are the most despised poster here on AR.

Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
I don't think it comes down to just "basics vs frills"...if you removed all the frills from a H&H Royal, such as engraving, case color hardening, exhibition grade wood, etc...you would still be left with a mechanically flawless rifle. A low end double, including my Heym simply does not function like a best quality British double. You pay a lot for the name and quite a bit for the frills, but you still have a whole lot more function that the low end guns have or ever will.

quote:

Originally posted by Clan_Colla:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
I don't think it comes down to just "basics vs frills"...if you removed all the frills from a H&H Royal, such as engraving, case color hardening, exhibition grade wood, etc...you would still be left with a mechanically flawless rifle. A low end double, including my Heym simply does not function like a best quality British double. You pay a lot for the name and quite a bit for the frills, but you still have a whole lot more function that the low end guns have or ever will.

Having owned several British doubles (and more than a few- Austrian,Belgian,French and even a couple of Italian and Russian Doubles and other German DR's) and now 2 Heym DRs -- I do not equate in anyway-the term "low end" with my Heym DRs nor do I see mechanical superiority in my other often much more expensive DRs.

In my opinion as many of you have heard me say-"you may spend more money, but for each dollar spent you cannot buy a better DR than a Heym-".
That is not a jab at the others- just my personal experience.

I would consider none of my British guns- -"mechanically flawless"- in point of fact- one failed miserable at an extremely inopportune time-

As to the Sabbatti- my experience (two-- a 500 and a 450-450) -- neither would hold any better than 6 to 8" at 50yds.
As always-Your milage may vary-

quote:

Originally posted by Vol717:
In order to never have any association with you, I think I'll change my name to Todd Williams.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I was just wondering why did you buy another SabbatTi if the one you already had would not shoot better than that at 50yds-if that is the case?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

I think there ARE differences. I believe the detail shown in the H&H video of extensive hand filing, sanding, testing with blackened parts, etc. demonstrates an extreme attention to detail that very definitely does lead to closer tolerances and longer lasting quality under heavy use.

On the issue of reliability, I think one must view that issue over a period of time and degree of use. If you do a search here on AR, Sam Rose, who is one of the more informed Double Rifles guys that once graced this forum, has and does own a wide variety of double rifles, including a Sabatti.

For quite some time, Sam raved about how his Sabatti shot lights out and was a quality weapon, etc, etc. Sam, is a shooter and as such, put a lot more bullets down those barrels in test and field conditions than the vast majority of DR owners. At some point, his Sabatti basically disintegrated with solder coming apart and other issues. I don't remember them all but you could search for the thread and find it pretty easily I suppose.

Anyway, he's had a hell of a time getting Sabatti to address his issues. At the time of his last post on the subject, he had no idea when or if he would get the rifle back and if so, if it would be in functional condition.

And looking at that H&H video where they are working with the fitment gun, turning a bolt here, there, etc. to get the gun to exactly match the shooter's body and therefore throw the shot on target as a function of how the gun comes to the shoulder vice how the shooter just aligns the sights to compensate, is the very essence of using a double in the first place. No "off the shelf" stock compromised to fit most people "pretty well" can match that.

I'd be a Kreighoff guy for sure if I could find one that the stock fit me. So far, I haven't. In fact, the Chapuis doesn't fit me very well either. Both of those guns have a too high comb for my physical dimensions. For the some reason, the Merkel, with it's greater drop at heel and lower comb, fits me almost perfectly.

My VC was custom measured and fits better still. I had a previous VC that was "off the shelf" in 577NE. It had a too short LOP and too high comb as well and didn't fit. Some will find the Sabatti dimensions fit them better than the Merkel. Regardless, a custom build stock WILL fit better.

So yeah, I think there are some very real differences to be noted between the quality of these guns, other than simply how pretty one is vs the other. And I say that, despite some labeling me as an elitist, as a guy who doesn't own any of the upper end rifles. I'm a Merkel, Chapuis, VC kind of guy. Not even Hyem! For me, I see value in a rifle that's "good enough". It works for me. There is a point of diminishing returns in going up the ladder of quality. Not uncommon in other products as well. Take Guitars for example. Gibson is one of premier, top of the line guitar makers (think WR or H&H). They typically start at around $5,000 and go up. Epiphone (think of Chapuis, VC, Searcy), which is now owned by Gibson, will provide you with a guitar that looks identical to the Gibson. You can opt for the same pickups and other hardware that's on the similar Gibson model with the only difference in the end being possibly the tonal quality of the wood the instrument is built with and maybe the feel in the fretting hand of the neck shape/size and fretboard itself. All this for around $700.

Play the two guitars and you'll see there IS a difference, although slight enough that only a true professional could really benefit from the performance difference. So you get 90% of the guitar for about 1/8th of the price. Diminishing returns as you go up! You can also buy a "Chibson" made in China, that looks exactly like the Gibson, but starts experiencing "issues" after a couple of years of hard use, all for $150 or so. That law of diminishing returns goes both ways when taken to the extreme!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Todd,you dont know anything about rifles.

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:


Todd I don’t think Shit away agrees with you!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:


Todd I don’t think Shit away agrees with you!

That's a good thing ... right?

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

Also, I don't get where Todd thinks anyone has accused him of being elitist on this thread. He has just been accused of being Todd Williams......

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
I just want to be clear.. I never meant to imply that one should not buy whatever rifle they want. If a sabatti is what you have dreamed of or you found a keeper, then by all means be happy with your purchase and carry it proudly. I was simply pointing out that there is a difference between the lower end guns and bespoke English doubles. They are better in ever way but price. they can have issues just like anything that man builds.... But they are simply the highest end of craftsmanship money can buy. There was a time not long ago that anything more expensive than a Winchester M70 was outta my price range. But that doesn't mean I thought my off the self guns were as good as the best bolt guns money could buy.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I will start of by saying something very politically incorrect. Double rifles are a joke and frivolous. The best can barely shoot with the accuracy of a $300 rifle at walmart and i know people buying $35k plus new guns sending then to a gunsmith to get checked out to make sure they shoot okay. Like Biebs once told me - if they can hit a oil drum at 50 yards its an accurate double. It has very limited uses for ph backing up and in all reality an blaser straight pull 458 lott would be just a good for a ph.


Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I will start of by saying something very politically incorrect. Double rifles are a joke and frivolous. The best can barely shoot with the accuracy of a $300 rifle at walmart and i know people buying $35k plus new guns sending then to a gunsmith to get checked out to make sure they shoot okay. Like Biebs once told me - if they can hit a oil drum at 50 yards its an accurate double. It has very limited uses for ph backing up and in all reality an blaser straight pull 458 lott would be just a good for a ph.


Mike

What was that said about there being no humor in this thread. I find this hilarious!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

Also, I don't get where Todd thinks anyone has accused him of being elitist on this thread. He has just been accused of being Todd Williams......

Not sure THAT's a good thing!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Mike, no worries. With your optional 30 round magazine, you're bound to hit something!!!

quote:

You just jealous of my marksmanship and offhand shooting skills Biebs.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

Don't worry about the card count this year Todd. I will send you one, but it might come postage due...

It's good to have friends!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

You just jealous of my marksmanship and offhand shooting skills Biebs.

Yes, those Black Spruce trees were dropping like flies on our Alaska hunt!!! :-)