The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles Chapuis in 30-30 Winchester coming this fallGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I was visiting with JJ yesterday about my new Chapuis shotgun. If anybody likes a light carry all day bird gun look at one. Back to the post title, Chapuis has just finished their 28ga shotgun, it's on a 28ga frame. He told me they will start making a double rifle on this frame in 22 Hornet and 30-30 Win. they be be ava. starting this fall. JJ thought the barrel length will be 24", just like the 9.3's. Weight will be less, he told me the approx. weight. But I was dreaming about the 30-30 for deer and the rest of the conversation went in one ear and out the other. Thought you guys might like to know. Terry | ||
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It's about time, IMO!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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How about a .303 British on a 28 or 20 ga. frame. | |||
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FABULOUS! You know, I was just thinking yesterday that what the world needs more than anything right now is a really nice $5000 dollar whitetail rifle that will, by its very design, be less accurate than a Model 94.  I can see a .303 regulated for heavy solids if a guy wanted to live out colonial fantasies but a 30-30? Why? I imagine some people in France will buy them due to the mil calibre prohibition but I see them selling about 5 here in the US...all to guys ultimately posting on this thread. | |||
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Perhaps it needs a 30mm euoropean scope in claw mounts to add another $1000. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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...and a really top shelf leather ammo wallet...and a nice leg-o-mutton case....and, and, and.... Damn it, we're gonna kill those whitetails deader than our forefathers ever dreamed!   | |||
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Not sure how to take your first comment about a double being less accurate than a Winchester 94…..so I will leave that part alone. As for the question about the Need of a double in 30-30 or even 303, what makes you think there must be a “need” before producing any rifle or caliber. Why did we need the WSM, WSSM, SAUM, UM or any of the new Ruger and Hornady cartridges….or the rifles built to shoot them? Think of what the world of weaponry would look like if companies only built what was “needed” versus producing something that folks might “Want”? I for one think a 22 Hornet double would be a peach! The 30-30 would no doubt be a lot of fun too. Can I say I “need” them…probably not. However every time I see people asking questions like this I immediately begin to wonder if my wife has opened up an account on AR in attempt to find out where all my money disappears to! ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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In our current Obaminated state of affairs we too may end up with just such a calibre prohibition! ( BTW, I too would prefer a .303 or a 30/40 AI or a 30R Blaser or-----) DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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I am half pulling everyone's collective leg with my reply. I own things I don't need too and, of course, respect the right of others to be equally ridiculous. From a business perspective though, I am not sure it will be worth Chapuis' time to make these. How common is 30-30 ammo in France? My guess is that most there will simply buy a 9,3x74 for everything due to its versatility. Of course, 30-30 ammo is readily available here in the US, but Chapuis currently offers their double in 30-06 and I imagine this is where Americans will turn if they want a double rifle for smaller game. This, in spite of the rimmed/rimless argument that seems eternal. Frankly, buying a stock of 5000 rounds of CMP '06 and having a Chapuis regulated for that would be just the ticket I think. Shit...I've sold myself on the $5000 deer gun.....who do I call to order?!?!?!  | |||
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The 30-30 is a very practical match for an iron-sighted medium-game rifle, no matter how many barrels. And with the new "Leverlution" type ammunition the practical range for a scoped 30-30 is now over 200 yds. A lot of doubles shoot more than well enough to plunk a round in the kill-zone of a deer or hog at 200 yds., so it makes sense on paper. I hope they do well with them, even if I'd personally rather have a 7MM or 6.5MMx57 rimmed. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Hmmm, less accurate than a Winchester 94??? I have a Chapouis 9.3 that just shot two consecutive 100-yard 4-shot groups (2R, 2L) that were each under 1.25-inches. I'd like to see the Winchester 94 that can do that. A 30-30 double would be absolutely outstanding as a Eastern woods deer rifle, but ultimately the $5000 price tag will severly limit the number sold. I'd pick the .30-06 (or 7x65R) for versatility over the .30-30. Now, if they could do this for $1500 they might be onto something, but Remington tried that route in their Russian venture with limited success. Roscoe is right, it's not about need, it's about a passion for doubles, large and small. | |||
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The fact is gentlemen, the only buyer that will even consider buying a S/S 30-30 double rifle is a person who also buy other double rifles! With that said, I think you will not see the Chapuis selling for $5K, but higher! Need has absolutely nothing to do with any firearm unless someone is trying to kill you. A $5K double rifle is not out of line for anyone who likes double rifles, that is in fact cheap! The average whitetail hunter will not be the buyer for this rifle, but the seasoned double rifle fan. I know a man who posts on this forum, wh owns a double rifle with two sets of barrels that cost in the $30K range, and is chambered for .22 lr, and a set of barrels for 410 shotgun! S/S double rifles chamered for .22 lr has habitually sold for prices far higher than most working double rifles chambered for 470NE. All the name makers have made examples of their double in .22lr, and sold them for very high prices. Need has nothing to do with it. For the guy who owns, and hunts double rifles, the little S/S Chapuis 30-30 double is about as handy a rifle in the deep woods as anything I can think of. The ammo can be picked up at any Wally world, or general store in the USA, and the guy who has kids growing up would not only have a very handy rifle for black bear, and any deer including Moose, but a great double to train his kids with. Cheap to shoot, and light to carry. The quickest second shot in the whitetail woods other than a simi- auto. Now to qualify what I'm spouting about, I built a 30-30 double rifle a few yrs ago on an SKB O/U 20 ga shotgun, that would place 4 shots,of 170 gr winchester ammo' two from each barrel on a standard playing card at 100 yds all day long. My nine yr old son shot his first Muledeer, and first Wild boar with that little rifle. The 30-30 win is very well known in Europe, and has been chambered in many sporting rifle there. It is called the 7.62X51R and is chambered in many drillings, combo, and double rifles. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Another one to look at is EAA's Model SAB92SF in two different grades. Engraved and non-engraved available in a varity of Calibers up to 600 NE. These are in the $5 to $6000.00 range. Single Trigger only. These are made in Spain. Another AR member has one on order. Waiting for his report. I have a Chapuis in 9.3 x 74R and I like it. I have seen some with a European Stock on them and I did not care for that type of stock as the comb is way too low. Now that I have my Krieghoff in .470 I'm thinking of selling the Chapuis. | |||
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Now THAT is a scarey thought Roscoe!!!  NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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Good post Mac. While I think the 9,3x74R is the best double rifle calibre under 400, and I have used the 9,3 a lot... I recently got a Heym O/U Model 26B in 30-30. It is short, light, slim and trim. I do a lot of deer and pig hunting in TX. Most of my shots are less than 50 yards as I like to get close. This double will be perfect, the 30-30 is plenty powerful enough and has low recoil. I have mounted a Leupold 4x Compact in the Heym QD mount. My 11 year old left hand Nephew will be able to shoot it as well. It is NEAT, SWEET.... PETITE. The Perfect light Double for a Double Rifle Freek.  DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I'd like one at first blush. It would be a great rifle under certain circumstances. But then, under those circumstances, why not hunt deer or pigs with a .470? Have done it. It works. Never found it wanting. Hmmm. I think I need a .500. | |||
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Now you are freakin' talkin'!!!! | |||
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I noted with interest this topic as I am right now negotiating to buy a custom 30-30 DB. It's built on a Parker Trojan grade frame. Custom built stock with cheek piece, nice wood and real professional looking barrel work. The rear parts of the old barrels were kept and sleeved and rifle barrels then added with traditional DB type sights. Its owner and I have had some interesting conversations about what other actions or cartridges would be good for this same treatment. I would probably not try it with old shotguns, at least not with anything much more potent than the 30-30. I have a CE grade Fox now at the gunsmith that is beautiful looking on the outside but the safety doesn't work, it doubles sometimes and it even opens by itself. I think the truth is that the outward appearance of some of these older guns papers over serious internal problems caused by the fact that many were made in an era when game was much more plentiful and hunting was more popular by mountains and miles than today. Meaning, many of them are just plain worn out. I've looked at several possible rimmed cartridges, and the favorites I've come up with in three catagories are - 30-40 Krag in the 30 caliber range (slightly below 30-06 ballistics), .348 Winchester in the .350 range (will handle on paper about anything in N.A.), and .444 Marlin in the .45 range (better ballistics than the .45-70). Another couple possibles are a flanged .300 H&H if such exists and the .300 Savage. For actions, I'd go with the Ithaca SKB (mentioned above by another poster - in the O/U I believe it has the crossbolt lock up - my Model 500 12 ga had that - they also made a side by side), the SxS Browning (provided you don't mind where it says "assembled in Korea with parts made in Japan"), Beretta, AYA (if you like sidelocks) or Ruger (if you like O/U). This is an interesting subject... | |||
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Heym470ne, was that one group of four shots all four in 1.25", or two separate groups of two shots each at 1.25"? Shack, there are probably worse chamberings than the three you have posted, but in fifteen minutes of careful consideration I can't turn up any. You guys talk about all the possible loads, remember these are not boltguns, they have a single load they are regulated with... Rich Buff Killer | |||
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Rich, Ross (Heym470ne) has nothing better to do than shoot his double rifles all day. I'm not sure how he finds time to work! I have seen photos of his targets several times and the guy know's how to pull the trigger! He also has a quite extensive list of his load development...but I don't want to steal his thunder! ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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Regarding the Model 94, the one I lucked into shoots really tight groups (meaning under an inch) at 50. I've never tried it at 100 because not likely there would be a practical application in the deer woods. I'm told the DB 30-30 I mentioned "wears out milk cartons at 100", but I still plan to try a test firing before buying. The cartridges I mentioned aren't something I'd buy a rifle to have. For instance, who would want a .30-40 for any purpose? But what are the alternatives, assuming one is looking for a rimmed cartridge for a double rifle that is under $5K and mainly for hunting small/medium N.A. game, i.e., whitetails? No question about these having to be regulated with a single load. I asked the owner of the Parker conversion about that. It takes the 170 grainer and has to be handloaded. In other words it won't take factory loads. Fortunately, it's the same load for each barrel. Loading data and lots of ammo handloaded by someone trustworthy is included. Anyway, on shotgun conversions this does leave one interesting question. If you move up from .30-30 to one of the others, such as the .348, would that indicate a 12 ga rather than 20 ga frame? | |||
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Wht not? It will kill anything in NA and has. At one time it was the flat shooting hign powered rifle of it's day. The ballistics are still the same. A HUNTER tries to get close as he can, Not snipe from long range. n A 300RUM is not needed to get the job done. Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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Iw would be nice if they offered it in 38-55. JJK | |||
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Do they still make .307 Winchester ammo? Wouldn't that also be a good (better) deer cartridge in a double? _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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According to Quickload the MAP of the 307 Winchester is a little over 60,000 psi. The 30-30 is 42,000 and the 30-40 47,000. I don't see where the extra pressure gets enough additional gain over the latter to justify the wear and tear. I suppose you could alter the equation with a larger case burning slower powders but the whole point (for me) is to have a light handy gun that kills medium game without a lot of fuss or recoil. I have enough bolt trash in shoulder-busting calibers to satisfy the masochist in me. At this point I want a double that would be fun to shoot over extended sessions and 9.3x74 would be the top end of that specification. 30-30 sounds even better! "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Idaho Sharpshooter, The groups referred to were for 4 consecutive shots, 2R and 2L from a bench, and Roscoe saw the targets fromtwo consecutive such groups. My Chapuis is exceptionally accurate and when I'm not working, I'm generally testing loads and shooting. I'm not about to say I can shoot 1.25" or smaller groups every time, but his rifle has shot a bunch of 2-inch or less 4-shot groups(100 yards, 2R 2L)with several loads and bullets. A recent change from Norma to Hornday brass seemed to help my groups dramatically. With the Norma brass, I always seemed to have one flyer that opened the groups up to 3 inches or so, with the other 3 in 1.5 inches or less. The Hornady brass seems to have eliminated the flyers, but I have not done enough testing to say this for sure. This French girl is ready to go to Africa to take on some plains game up to Eland. I don't have a Model 94, but I do have a Winchester 64A which would probably crowd 1.5 inches routinely if I took the peep sight off and soped it (but that wouldn't be right). | |||
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The 38-55 certainly sounds fine. It's currently offered by Win (I think). I found a reference to it on the net, 255 grainer @ 1320 w/ 987 lbs. Perfect deer gun and somewhere between 30-30 and 45-70. Just for fun I looked up the 307 in the oldest book I have and didn't see a reference to it. It's Winchester's Amm'n Handbook, 6th Ed. It was given to me as a kid by Herb Parsons, Win's famed exhibition shooter in about 1955. For those not familiar with him, he was to Win as Tom Knapp is to Benelli today. He did amongst other things tricks for crowds like putting holes with .22s in Indian head nickels thrown in the air. He used to ask which side of the nickel did you want it thru...true story...I was there. The 38-55 was still listed then as a Win product. So was my beloved .348 (I've long been fond of that round and especially the gun built to handle it...the Model 71 in Field Grade or Super Grade is a classic in itself and I'd be most happy to have it chambered in a double). Since one obvious motivation for this project is capturing the allure and mystique of true big bore doubles in something compatible with whitetails, I checked one other source to see if I could find a possible match...Taylor's African Rifles & Cartridges. The pickings are pretty slim there, but here's what I turned up in rimmed cartridges (assuming anyone today could find the brass) - .300 H&H Magnum "Super Thirty" Flanged, 150 gr bullet @ 2,875 fps, 2,755 lbs. .333 Jeffery Nitro-Express Flanged, 300 gr bullet @ 2,150 fps, 3,090 lbs. .350 Rigby (400/.350) Flanged, 310 gr bullet @ 2,150 fps, 3,190 lbs. Others I saw mentioned either were very scare even then, or I didn't see a flanged version or they appeared maybe too potent for a shotgun conversion action. One that would fit the bill just right I think if rimmed brass could be found is the rather famous .318 Westley Richards Nitro-Express, 180 gr, 2,700 fps, 2,920 lbs. | |||
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375 2 1/2" NE ???
"if rimmed brass could be found" 318 WR Brass can easily be made from 30.06 brass, of which America has Millions of cases of !!!! so brass is not a problem for the 318 WR. | |||
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Owning and using a small mid-1920s German guild DR in .250-3000, I can say with some confidence that a reasonably light weight small caliber DR is a delightful deer rifle. Because my 55 year old eyes aren't up to the task or iron sights anymore, I'd want to put a light weight low power scope (the now sadly discontinued Leupold Vari-XIII 1.5-5x was perfect for this purpose) with a set of quick detachable mounts on it, but those of you who can still see to use iron sights should be able to live without that addition. | |||
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Heck, I'd be in for one of these in 22 Hornet. Never know when you'll run into a charging rabbit! I'd love to see the 30-30, 30-40 or even a 32-40 in a small framed light weight double with a smaller low powered scope on it. I once held a fine European double in 32-40. It peaked my interest as I already load for my Martini Cadet in 32-40. It was way out of my price range, but it felt so good! Any of the above would be a great deer rifle. I already love the looks I get from fellow hunters when I bring my scoped 9.3x74R double into deer camp. The .30-30 would be even better! ______________________ Guns are like parachutes. If you need one and don't have one, you'll likely never need one again Author Unknown, But obviously brilliant. If you are in trouble anywhere in the world, an airplane can fly over and drop flowers, but a helicopter can land and save your life. - Igor Sikorski, 1947 | |||
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A 30-30 on a 28 gauge frame with leverevolution ammo is going to be an amazing rig/carry/ammo combo. I think it is brilliant! Just expensive =( My budget would be a Remington russian 30-06 double. Can 30-30 barrel inserts be made for 12 gauge shotguns? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I think its a fantastic idea, and if it materialises, I'll be ordering one. BTW, the 300H&H Flanged Magnum shot either 180gr bullets at 2575fps or 220gr bullets at 2250fps nominal. Pressure is 17.5 tons/sq" or .5 tons less than the 375H&H Flanged Magnum. See this link: http://www.new-kynoch.apt-sites.com/300%20flanged.htm Use a 20ga frame! JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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For those that think $5K is a lot of money for a 30/30 O/U rifle you need to take a look at the "new" RBL 20ga SxS with rifled barrels -- it goes for about $4500 and is a perfect match for the RBL 20ga SxS shotgun. Tony Galazan makes nice guns. DB Bill aka Bill George | |||
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Even if you didn't get anything you would at least look good walking thru the woods with it...and there might be some deer that would drop dead from fright when they saw it... How far up in caliber before we need a 12 ga frame? And there are also 10 gauge side by sides and O/Us out there. Would they be useful for anything? | |||
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IIRC, over on NitroExpress.com, a fellow who goes by Maraki detailed building a 577 Nitro for Black rifle on a 10ga Greener frame. As I recall, it worked out well. You could do a search under his name you could find his posts on his build. JPK. Free 500grains | |||
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jpk marrakai didnt build it he bought it and the gun is a 12 gauge allthough a very big 12 gauge. sizi depends which style you want to build. if continental then 20 gauge/500 NE. if english lot of it were 12 gauge size best peter | |||
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I just handled a couple of these at the Tulsa gun show. They are really a sweet handling little slug gun. One had a Leupold 1.5-5 in QD mounts. If I lived in a shotgun only zone or state, I'd be hunting deer with one of them for sure. ______________________ Guns are like parachutes. If you need one and don't have one, you'll likely never need one again Author Unknown, But obviously brilliant. If you are in trouble anywhere in the world, an airplane can fly over and drop flowers, but a helicopter can land and save your life. - Igor Sikorski, 1947 | |||
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What about post picktures of this little Chapuis? Do anyone know what it will weight? | |||
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Marrakai bought it from me and I had bought it from someone else. It was built on a NORMAL sized, 12 Gauge WW Greener Empire 12 Gauge Shotgun, the one you see heaps of with the cross bolt. They are good actions for this type of project as they have a long water table. Personally, I am not a fan of the Greener guns but they work for these type of projects very well. Other guns were also built including 12/577 Cape Gun and a few others I believe. | |||
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Hey!, Thanks for the report! I do live in a shotgun only area and I'd been looking for a suitable and not too expensive Paradox or similar when someone here tipped me off to the CSMC 20ga PH. I ordered one quickly, hoping that it would be as I expected. Should arrive in two months if you believe CSMC. I'd bet another four, which still leaves plenty of time til deer season. Anything else you can pass on? Thanks, JPK Free 500grains | |||
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