Was out shooting some stumps with my double this morning (470NE)and it doubled on me. Needless to say I was a bit surprised. I probably shot it 20 more rounds after that without a hitch. Not real sure why it happened but I could not tell if it was a simultaneous shot as both seemed to go off at the same time, not one a fraction later than the other. My son thought the same thing after he stopped laughing...

EZ

Yes, it does get your attention doesn't it

What brand of double is it?

Heym 88; never has happened prior. I suppose there is the possibility I touched the rear trigger. This gun has intercepting sears that is supposed to prevent this type of event unless you touch that rear trigger. Who knows??? I will be shooting quite a bit over the next two months and if it happens again I will try and look a little further into it. Not passing judgement yet as I shoot this gun pretty good. A lot of dead stumps out there.

EZ

Human error does occur from time to time, even though you might not remember it.

I betting you strummed those triggers. A Heym is arguably the last gun I'd guess would double on you because of a mechanical issue..

Doubled my Merkel 500NE on the first shot today. Doing move, shoot 2, reload, move, shoot 2 drills. Didn't happen again, although I did pull the front trigger x2 on one occasion. Shot a dozen rounds. Beau had no issues with his Merkel. We're both shooting minute of Ele.

My front trigger sits directly in front of my rear trigger. I sent it to Herbert last month and he made some adjustments, test fired it and says all is well. I think that if I only put the pad of my trigger finger on the trigger, which is how I've shot my entire life, I have a tendency to strum the rear trigger. I am trying to put more of my trigger finger deeper into the front trigger and believe that is the cure.

I was wearing a wrist band with two rounds on my right (strong side) wrist and reloading from it was very fast for me, much faster than from the culling belt. I put a cotton athletic wrist band on first and then the ammo band. Beau wears his on the left (weak side) wrist.

After the shoot we met with Henry Flores and Beau received his culling belt he had Henry make from last years Buff hide. As always, a beautiful piece of leather craftsmanship by Henry. Beau was very pleased.

12 days to departure for Beau's first bull Ele and my next bull Ele.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Was out shooting some stumps with my double this morning (470NE)and it doubled on me. Needless to say I was a bit surprised. I probably shot it 20 more rounds after that without a hitch. Not real sure why it happened but I could not tell if it was a simultaneous shot as both seemed to go off at the same time, not one a fraction later than the other. My son thought the same thing after he stopped laughing...

EZ

I would almost bet it was a tiny strumming of the back trigger. Even a mechanical double discharge the second barrel is set off by the recoil of the first barrel. Even then they are so close together it is almost impossible to determine that both barrels have fired other than a stronger felt recoil.

Heym and others with intercepting sears will rarely have a double discharge if not strummed. If it does for mechanical reasons the damage will usually be severe enough that it will double discharge on the regular basis, and need repair. Since it hasn't done it prior, and did not do it again after several more shots I would bet it was a simple strumming. If however it does it again in short order I would have someone check it out. A chipped hook on the I-sear will sometimes allow the interceptor to miss the safe notch. Still I don't believe you have a problem with your Heym.

....................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
I would almost bet it was a tiny strumming of the back trigger. Even a mechanical double discharge the second barrel is set off by the recoil of the first barrel. Even then they are so close together it is almost impossible to determine that both barrels have fired other than a stronger felt recoil.

I doubled my 465 on a Buffalo once, to show how close together it went off, both bullets hit the Buffalo within 6 inches of each other.

I doubled Cal's 450 #2 last year. Yes, it gets your attention. I think Brett is still laughing.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
I would almost bet it was a tiny strumming of the back trigger. Even a mechanical double discharge the second barrel is set off by the recoil of the first barrel. Even then they are so close together it is almost impossible to determine that both barrels have fired other than a stronger felt recoil.

I doubled my 465 on a Buffalo once, to show how close together it went off, both bullets hit the Buffalo within 6 inches of each other.

Lion hunter & 505G,

As you know I've had three people get a double discharge on my 470NE Merkel 140-2 safari
while firing the back trigger first. I was puzzled by this because I have never in about ten years had a double discharge with this rifle. That is, with me firing the back trigger first about 30% of the time. The three people who did get the DDs were all new to double rifles, but I couldn’t see how they did it, and I couldn’t replicate it when I shot the back trigger first.

I would have always thought that if a DD was experienced when pulling the back trigger first it would indicate something broken in the action. This was not the case and this puzzled me further. I simply couldn't see how a double rifle shooter could cause a DD when firing the back trigger first. Everyone seemed to think, like me, that something must be wrong with the rifle, but I couldn't get past the fact that it never did it with me firing the back trigger first.

There was an extensive discussion about this here on AR, with most thinking it was a rifle malfunction, and I couldn’t see how it happened either.

Then someone who I can’t remember the screen name, came on who is a long time clay shooter. He uses an over/under shotgun. He told me that it is quite easy to cause a DD when firing the back trigger first.

He said it is caused by a poor hold on the wrist with the trigger hand. He said the problem was the recoil of the gun slides the rifle back in the shooter's hand allowing his trigger finger to push the front trigger forward and when the recoil subsides the gun move back very quickly, allowing the front trigger to spring back causing it to fire the other barrel (or right barrel in the S/S).

He said that it can be caused with a single trigger was well. In that case it is caused by the same sloppy grip on the gun by the trigger hand. He said in that case the rifle recoils back in the hand, and then slides forward again. Once that single trigger is pulled and released it resets to the other barrel, and when the rifle moves forward again with the shooter's shoulder pushing the gun forward again, the finger touches off the trigger again, causing a double discharge.

After this guy told me this I remembered my young son shooting my 12 ga O/U single trigger shotgun and getting a double discharge. I couldn’t see how he did it at that time, and thought something was wrong with my shotgun. We shot it a lot more that day and it never did it again, that was when my son was 10 yrs old, and today is his birthday, and he turns 50 yrs old today. The shotgun has never doubled again in that 40 yrs time.

If that clay shooter is reading this I wish he would post here!
..........................................................................

Mac

I can see how that could happen.

If you don't grip a gun tight enough,
it def moves around in your hands.

If a double gun, rifle or shotgun doubles when the rear trigger is pulled first, then there is something wrong with that weapon and should be corrected. Part of the few advantages a double has, is the ability to load a soft and a solid and use them accordingly. Lionhunter, next time you go and practice, try pulling the rear trigger first (with an empty or a dummy round in the right barrel naturally) and see what happens. BTW, that is Merkel #7 that potentially has doubled..

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
If a double gun, rifle or shotgun doubles when the rear trigger is pulled first, then there is something wrong with that weapon and should be corrected. Part of the few advantages a double has, is the ability to load a soft and a solid and use them accordingly. Lionhunter, next time you go and practice, try pulling the rear trigger first (with an empty or a dummy round in the right barrel naturally) and see what happens. BTW, that is Merkel #7 that potentially has doubled..

Careful Jorge! MacD37 will brand you as a heretic if you pull the back trigger first!!!!

That, and the fact I'll take a good Sabatti (and the change) over a Merkel any day And no I just can't get past the plastic grip cap on a 9K rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
That, and the fact I'll take a good Sabatti (and the change) over a Merkel any day And no I just can't get past the plastic grip cap on a 9K rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
If a double gun, rifle or shotgun doubles when the rear trigger is pulled first, then there is something wrong with that weapon and should be corrected. Part of the few advantages a double has, is the ability to load a soft and a solid and use them accordingly. Lionhunter, next time you go and practice, try pulling the rear trigger first (with an empty or a dummy round in the right barrel naturally) and see what happens. BTW, that is Merkel #7 that potentially has doubled..

The above post is simply wrong! Jorge you have owned exactly two double rifles in your life, but now you are a world class double rifle expert. I'm not saying anything about your VC because it is a fine rifle, and frankly it surprised me when you took you Sabatti back for a refund, when you claimed it shot very tight groups. The fact is you are wrong about Merkel double rifles, I don't believe the claims you have made about your 7 Merkels BS either. eezrider even told you he most likely strummed the 500NE Merkel. I've been present where hundreds of rounds were fired through Merkel double rifles without any problem at all, several hundred fired through my personal Merkels.

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:

Careful Jorge! MacD37 will brand you as a heretic if you pull the back trigger first!!!!

Sub, I often pull the back trigger first, and the rifle Jorge is spouting about has about 300 rounds through it by ME, with about 30% of them pulling the back trigger first, and I have never had a double discharge with that rifle before or after the newbies doubled it. I also have another Merkel double rifle that I've probably shot 1000 rounds through, and I strummed it to get a DD the first time I fired it, because I wasn't ready for the amount of recoil it developed with the 8.3 pound 9.3X74R, with My being used to a much larger and heavier recoil and simply didn't hold the rifle tight enough. It has never had a DD since with me or anyone else shooting it. I've had the 9.3 for well over ten years, and the 470NE about ten years.

As I have said all along, the three people who got the DDs with my 470NE pulling the back trigger first had never shot a rifle with more recoil that a 300Win Mag, and in 300 rounds with me shooting that rifle it has never had a double discharge no matter which trigger was pulled first by me or any of the DRSS guys who are used to big bore double rifles!

I have two Merkels, and about 15 of the members at DRSS have at least one as well, from 9.3X74R to 500NE and they do not have a problem with the doubling either.
.......................................Over and out

Post deleted, it's just not worth it..

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
If a double gun, rifle or shotgun doubles when the rear trigger is pulled first, then there is something wrong with that weapon and should be corrected. Part of the few advantages a double has, is the ability to load a soft and a solid and use them accordingly. Lionhunter, next time you go and practice, try pulling the rear trigger first (with an empty or a dummy round in the right barrel naturally) and see what happens. BTW, that is Merkel #7 that potentially has doubled..

The above post is simply wrong! Jorge you have owned exactly two double rifles in your life, but now you are a world class double rifle expert. I'm not saying anything about your VC because it is a fine rifle, and frankly it surprised me when you took you Sabatti back for a refund, when you claimed it shot very tight groups. The fact is you are wrong about Merkel double rifles, I don't believe the claims you have made about your 7 Merkels BS either. eezrider even told you he most likely strummed the 500NE Merkel. I've been present where hundreds of rounds were fired through Merkel double rifles without any problem at all, several hundred fired through my personal Merkels.

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:

Careful Jorge! MacD37 will brand you as a heretic if you pull the back trigger first!!!!

Sub, I often pull the back trigger first, and the rifle Jorge is spouting about has about 300 rounds through it by ME, with about 30% of them pulling the back trigger first, and I have never had a double discharge with that rifle before or after the newbies doubled it. I also have another Merkel double rifle that I've probably shot 1000 rounds through, and I strummed it to get a DD the first time I fired it, because I wasn't ready for the amount of recoil it developed with the 8.3 pound 9.3X74R, with My being used to a much larger and heavier recoil and simply didn't hold the rifle tight enough. It has never had a DD since with me or anyone else shooting it. I've had the 9.3 for well over ten years, and the 470NE about ten years.

As I have said all along, the three people who got the DDs with my 470NE pulling the back trigger first had never shot a rifle with more recoil that a 300Win Mag, and in 300 rounds with me shooting that rifle it has never had a double discharge no matter which trigger was pulled first by me or any of the DRSS guys who are used to big bore double rifles!

I have two Merkels, and about 15 of the members at DRSS have at least one as well, from 9.3X74R to 500NE and they do not have a problem with the doubling either.
.......................................Over and out

MacD37 - I was just pulling your leg based on exchanges we had in a thread many months ago.
YOU are the Master.....I am but a Student when it comes to Double rifles.
With greatest respect,
Dave

I have shot SXS shotguns all my life from 28 ga.-12 ga. with two triggers and never had one double on me.
That being said I never use high intensity loads in them either. Perhaps express loads in the 16 or 12 when pheasant hunting but never 3" duck/goose loads.
The recoil of the 470 is far in excess of the shotguns even when they weigh between 5.5-8 lbs.
The initial thought of this thread was realizing about +140 lbs of recoil can take you off
guard...It really felt as if both barrels went off at once but it was over so fast you just sort of come too and ask yourself "what just happened"???? Again while you son is laughing at you..

Gents:
I really don't understand the doubling issue. Years ago I had it happen once. Two gents have had my .450 no2 double on them. Most, if not all, that I know of pull the front trigger first. That said, I can't see how one can fire both barrels at once (outside of a mechanical problem such as a worn sear) by firing the right barrel first. The back trigger is offset a bit so I don't see how it is touched to fire it off?

For 20 years I have been shooting the rear trigger or left barrel first. Not out of fear of a double, but I personally feel a better grip and more accuracy in the first shot. I have not varied in this and now it is automatic as is pushing off the auto safety when mounting the rifle to my shoulder. That said, I have not ever had a double discharge using the rear trigger.
Cheers,
Cal

I have fired perhaps 200 rounds since I bought this rifle. It was Todd's rifle purchased new before I got it and I know Todd shot it a lot. I have NEVER (to my knowledge) pulled the back trigger first. I have had perhaps 4-5 DD with this rifle. I presume all were caused by "strumming" the rear trigger and/or not holding the rifle tight enough.

Herbert (Merkel's gunsmith) gave the rifle a thumbs up just last month. One thing I don't understand is why the front trigger is positioned directly IFO the rear trigger? It seems to me it should be offset to the right and that this would lessen the possibility of strumming the rear trigger, but my DR knowledge is limited.

I have killed all my DG, including multiple Ele and Buff, with bolt guns. I thought I should hunt Ele at least once with a DR before I can no longer do safari, hence the Merkel 500NE (following the Sabatti fiasco). Most of what I do know of DR was gained here on AR from those more experienced DR users. I do appreciate the sharing of info and DR experience.

It takes skill to pull a trigger the way a trigger is supposed to be pulled.Learn to shoot before playing with double rifles.

Hope no one takes the bait on this shit storm....

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
It takes skill to pull a trigger the way a trigger is supposed to be pulled.Learn to shoot before playing with double rifles.

I must restrain myself... ArgggHHHH

Shitstorm?
Gents, you all should be thankful, as am I, that we are blessed with someone as all-knowing as shootaway. He is like the guru of the shooting sports. I copy and save all is posts to enable me to be more like him in my shooting and hunting pursuits. (I learned to do this from Mike B.). Perhaps I will bring a pic of him to post in my camp in SA and Zim in three weeks as an inspiration for my success with my double. I am studying now on how to properly pull a trigger.
Cheers, all.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
It takes skill to pull a trigger the way a trigger is supposed to be pulled.Learn to shoot before playing with double rifles.

I've left the Idiot From The North alone for the past couple months as I consider anything he says as irrelevant, off topic and immaterial. I decided commenting on his posts was simply encouraging him; something I am loath to do. He has no concept of reality and lacks even a minutia of interpersonal communications skill.

Has any of the mods/admins actually checked to see if his IP address is from Canada or from Willow Ak?

Mike:
That's OK, I got even with you at the shoot when you ate the burger I cooked for you.
Canada or Willow? You mean Canada or 54th street, don't you?
We need to shoot again this summer before the snow files.
C

Cal,

I am properly trained in the usage of double rifles. I always pull both triggers simultaneously. I've learned how to twist my body and jerk my shoulder down at the point of sear release so as to sling the second barrel into the aim point of the first. I learned how to do this watching Hidden Dragon Crouching Tiger on pay per view last year. I've learned all of my Kung Fu/Ninja/Shooting skills by watching slow motion Kung Fu on TV. I also taught myself how to fly by watching Top Gun 132 times in a row with no sleep.

I often group my shots well into a square yard at 50' or less off hand with a twist and jerk. I'll come up and show you how to do things correctly one of these days.

Just trying to keep it real bro dawg.. Don't be a hater.

I'll add another Merkel doubled.
A friend of mine saw my new ejector Merkel .470 and ordered one just like mine. It started doubling immediately. He sent it to Birmingham, they acknowledged the problem, attempted to fix it and sent it back to him. It doubled again. He sent it back and they sent him the next grade up for free, it has never doubled.
Mine has never doubled.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Cal,

I am properly trained in the usage of double rifles. I always pull both triggers simultaneously. I've learned how to twist my body and jerk my shoulder down at the point of sear release so as to sling the second barrel into the aim point of the first. I learned how to do this watching Hidden Dragon Crouching Tiger on pay per view last year. I've learned all of my Kung Fu/Ninja/Shooting skills by watching slow motion Kung Fu on TV. I also taught myself how to fly by watching Top Gun 132 times in a row with no sleep.

I often group my shots well into a square yard at 50' or less off hand with a twist and jerk. I'll come up and show you how to do things correctly one of these days.

Just trying to keep it real bro dawg.. Don't be a hater.

LOL

When I read the first sentence, I thought it was shootaway writing it and had to do a double check !

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
I doubled Cal's 450 #2 last year. Yes, it gets your attention. I think Brett is still laughing.

Ya, because he knew you would be in his office getting re adjusted! Tricky fella that guy is!

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:

Herbert (Merkel's gunsmith) gave the rifle a thumbs up just last month. One thing I don't understand is why the front trigger is positioned directly IFO the rear trigger? It seems to me it should be offset to the right and that this would lessen the possibility of strumming the rear trigger,

LH are you sure the front trigger is directly in line whit the back trigger? If it is it is not supposed to be! If you hold the rifle left handed you will and feel the triggers you will see the front trigger will be harder to access than the back trigger because the triggers are not placed in direct line un less someone has bent them. Todd owned that rifle and I certainly don’t think he would have done that!

……………………………………………………………………………………………

The simple solution to keep a double from doubling is to only load one barrel at a time!


465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The simple solution to keep a double from doubling is to only load one barrel at a time!


465H&H

........................That would do the trick!

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The simple solution to keep a double from doubling is to only load one barrel at a time!


465H&H

We'll need to remind a certain Canadian 'expert' of this when he starts complaining..

MacD37-

That was one of the reasons it went back to Herbert. The front trigger was bent to the left. I was told by Herbert it should be IFO the rear trigger and when he returned it, that is how it is now.

The front trigger is left of center in the trigger guard, which places it almost directly in line with the rear trigger. I believe this contributes to doubling on any DR. Why would Herbert not correct this if it is not as it should be, especially when that was the main reason I returned it for service and he knew I was pending departure for another Ele safari?

From my 4/15 letter to Herbert, included with my rifle when returned to Merkel for service:

"Please examine the front articulated trigger which has been somehow bent to the left and needs replacement/repair."

It is easier for me to pull the front trigger with my left hand. However, as I am right handed
this is not helpful. Has anyone here had issues with Herbert at Merkel?

I leave for Ele in 8 days, so am taking it as is, but I am not happy about the situation.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
MacD37-

That was one of the reasons it went back to Herbert. The front trigger was bent to the left. I was told by Herbert it should be IFO the rear trigger and when he returned it, that is how it is now.

The front trigger is left of center in the trigger guard, which places it almost directly in line with the rear trigger. I believe this contributes to doubling on any DR. Why would Herbert not correct this if it is not as it should be, especially when that was the main reason I returned it for service and he knew I was pending departure for another Ele safari?

From my 4/15 letter to Herbert, included with my rifle when returned to Merkel for service:

"Please examine the front articulated trigger which has been somehow bent to the left and needs replacement/repair."

It is easier for me to pull the front trigger with my left hand. However, as I am right handed
this is not helpful. Has anyone here had issues with Herbert at Merkel?

I leave for Ele in 8 days, so am taking it as is, but I am not happy about the situation.

Lionhunter, the triggers are not supposed to be in line with each other. for a right handed shooter the front trigger should be almost in line with it's cut in the bottom of the trigger plate, and the back trigger in line with it's cut in the trigger plate or slightly left of the cut. This makes it less likely that the trigger finger will contact the back trigger if it slips off the front trigger.

If Herbert thinks they should be in line with each other he needs to go back to PLUMBING school, because he is not a double rifle smith!

With your short time limit, if you have a very good shotgun smith in your area I would let him re-position that front trigger, because this also applies to S/S double shotguns as well. Good luck LH let me know what you end up doing!

I have never dealt with Herbert and after this post I doubt I ever will.
.......................................................................

Mike,

When I had the rifle, the front trigger was offset from the rear trigger. The triggers were NOT in line with each other, and they should not be. Are you saying Herbert bent the triggers to be in line with each other?

The front trigger was right of the rear trigger. That is the proper way the triggers should be set and the way they were when the gun left my possession.

Here is a picture of it in my trophy room:



And another:



And another: