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For Buffalo, what is the growing consensus, a Non Con in both barrels or a Non Con in the first and a Solid in the second? | ||
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After seeing personally, what the Non-Con does to a charing buffalo's skull/boss, etc. I think it doesn't really matter!!! The hole in the skull below, is from the pedals of a Non-Con.  | |||
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Why would you want to use a solid on a buff anyhow? that Non-Con is all you need.. I think anyway. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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The non cons have proven to give the buff a splitting head ache lol. Why have a solid in the second barrel? Is it not to get a CNS shot in case of a charge? Seems to me the CEB DGBR hollow points are heavy enough to get that job done. Truly Non Conventional. The base acts like a solid and does more damage than a soft. The Solids are truly amazing in depth of penetration. In a running away situation you can give the buff a Texas heart shot or in a charge you could give the buff a Texas suppository lol. Remember the buff Michael got the bullet was sticking out the hind end. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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A picture tells a thousand words! | |||
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Only a year ago I would have told you there is ALWAYS a place for a good solid for buffalo, and that NO SOFT regardless of how good it is, would be suitable for second, or even third shots on buffalo. And in fact I had carried this same concept over into ALL my hunting regardless of species with incredibly good success I might add. Today I am wavering on this subject, only because of the NonCons! After some experience with the NonCons in .500 and .458 I even on occasion carried a NonCon as a second shot, and used it on the noggin of a good old bull at 5 steps or so, with incredible success. Followed by the solid that boomy mentions above. Both very successful. The penetration of the NonCon will reach the vitals from nearly any angle presented on a second shot, with the exception perhaps of a dead southern shot up the end of a North Bound buff. Even then, it is going to be very close if not in the vitals of some. If one places that ALL IMPORTANT first shot in the right place with the first NonCon, you may not even get a chance to shoot a second except for insurance. You can bet I am going to shoot anyway, who wants to carry all that ammo home, you brought it for a reason! I believe I am more likely to use NonCons as second shots in .458 caliber to .510 caliber than I would be below 458 caliber. I have almost no experience with buffalo and less than 458 caliber, so my confidence level is not as high. Should I dance with old buff and a 416 I might lean heavy to following on with solids, noncon or not. But it does seem the 416 NonCons are very successful thus far from what I have heard. But my lack of experience in 416 begins to show. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Hell, Saeed has shot buffalo up the butt with his 375/404 and his Walterhog bullets and recovered them all the way up in the chest.Solids were a must when all there was were crappy bullets like Kynochs, but with the advent of the Super Premiums, about the only time I would use a solid would be on elephant, rhino and hippo on land. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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For what its worth there are non-cons and then there are other non-cons! Almost all will work in bolt actions, or any single barreled rifle, but not all are well suited for double rifles, especially for vintage doubles. IMO, no matter how good a non-con is it will not penetrate as well as a true mono-metal solid for a going away shot on buffalo especially if it hits a heavy upper leg bone. The expandable non-con are basically designed to shed it’s petals shortly after impact and no matter the damage done by the shrapnel of those petals it reduces the weight of the bullet. The damage done to a buff in a South end placement does little but ruin a ham, and takes away the needed weight for deep straight line penetration. In the case of a non-con that is safe in a double rifle, I would use one in the right barrel of my double, but the left barrel in my rifle would always be a solid (safe mono-metal) or conventional jacketed soft core solid. It is my experience that a full 90% of the time the buffalo hit with the first shot heads for the nearest cover offering you a Texas heart short or two, and for that I want the bullet to get where it is going with all it’s weight. Mono-metal or conventional solid my rifle will always be loaded with an expandable in the right barrel, and a true solid in the left for shots one and two, and true solids there after. I guess I’m just too old to change the way I’ve done things that have worked for 60 years! Of course that doesn't mean others shouldn't shoot what ever they choose! The certainly have my permision to do as they please! .................................................................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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I've hunted buff now 7 times with 4 different PH's. I don't know if times are changing or what but only 1 of those PH's has had me load solids after the first TSX. All others have been TSX in both barrels. I'll be going after Buff again this fall and plan on using the CEB Non-Cons this time. Will have the BBW#13 solids also for Ele. It will be with yet another PH this time so we'll see what he prefers. A few years ago, my son shot a buff cow with his 375. I put two 570 TSX's from my 500NE in it from the stern as it ran. They both hit just to the left of the tail. One stopped just under the skin between the neck and front right shoulder. The other penetrated all the way through and exited the right shoulder. Both of those expanding bullets reached the vitals and then some, from the ass end. With performance like that, I'm not sure solids really are needed for buff any more. I think more testing is in order!  | |||
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Todd I think you read my mind, I am quite sure there is much much, lot's, possibly YEARS of continued test work to be done, "In The Field". HEH...... I think something on the order of 50-100 buffalo should be considered for these trials! Just so we get a really good handle on things!  YIPPIE!!!!! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael: In view of your momentous& monumental task, I volunteer to assist you in this endeavor! Just let me know when and where to report for duty!  USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Hunting in Masailand last month we bumped elephant trying to get up on buffalo several times. Usually at close range and sometimes cows with calves. Were able to back out and circle around without incident, but that would make a good case for a solid in the left barrel. | |||
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.................................BINGO!!!! ....................................  ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I have had similar experiences with TSX bullets. I made a bad shot on a kudu bull last year in the Save with my 9.3x74R. It was walking away from me, and rather than hitting between the shoulder blades, I hit it in the rump with a 250 gr TSX. The bullet went all the way through the kudu breaking the right shoulder. We recovered my 57" bull the next day. Still, with this great performance of the TSX, I carry solids for every rifle I carry in Africa. More often than not I carry them for shooting a smaller animal, like the large civet I shot with my .375 H&H in Dande North in 2008. My PH has stated that if I am using TSX bullets for buffalo, there is no need for solids. Like Todd, I agree that more testing with non-cons is in order, and I plan to add data to the data base over my hunts for the next several years. | |||
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