Ladies and Gentlemen:

I'm a bit confused. I just finished reading the American Rifleman article on their Sabatti Model 92 Deluxe with ejectors in 450 N. E. It passed.

I handled one in Cabelas of Hamburg, Pennsylvania two weeks ago. It fit me a lot better than the Merkel. The Sabatti had a higher and fuller comb, fuller forearm, and a nice balance. It didn't appear to be a piece of junk.

So what is the current problem?

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Chris: After the initial wave of horror stories, I believe any prospective Sabatti purchaser simply needs to very carefully examine the muzzles with a hand lens and a good light (NOT just the subdued lighting in the Cabelas Gun Library) to verify that neither bore's lands were ground to assist in regulation. Then ask to see the sample target that comes with each rifle. Finally, if satisfied, make absolutely sure to tell the Cabelas staff that if the gun proves not to group well with the ammunition used in regulation, they will accept it back for a full refund.
I'll leave it to more experienced DR shooters to define what "grouping well" should mean. To me, if both barrels shoot within 2.5 inches at 50 yards without crossing, and with very little vertical dispersion, I'd be a happy guy.
I don't know if anyone can tell you for sure that new Sabattis arriving at Cabelas stores no longer have ground muzzles, or even whether more Sabattis are on their way from Europe.

quote:

American Rifleman article on their Sabatti Model 92 Deluxe with ejectors in 470 N. E. It passed.

I have not read the article and not picking on Sabatti but in general you need to read all gun reviews carefully (and read between the lines) as it is often what they do not say or how it is worded that is more important.

I quit believing in the American Rifleman years ago when they reviewed an RG 44 mag and used weasel words like "for its intended use" and such... to justify not coming right out and saying "It's perfect for use as a trot-line weight"!!

Dear Kebco and Lee440:

I've read your responses, but what exactly have you found wrong with these Sabatti double rifles?

As to "reading between the lines", I'm presently working on a choice of law brief that will probably end up in the Superior Court in Pennsylvania, the intermediate appellate court. I practiced law for 10 years, and although I'm far from infallible, I have a pretty acute understanding of the English language.

I'm looking for facts, not innuendo.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Yale,

I read the same article in American Rifleman and it was a .450NE not a .470.

It was not a glowing review in my humble opnion. They made mention of the problems that people had written about on the internet forums (like here).

As Kebco says, HOW they said what they said and what they didn't say are key (IMO) and it is important to keep the review in context. Like really, if they up and send you a rifle, unless it's an absolute dog, I tend to think most folks would be as optomistic and complementary as possible and focus on the the positive rather than the negetive.

Howsoever that may be...

As for facts, just go back about 20 pages or so and I think you'll find some dirt on Sabatti.

For instance, here is the saga of my personal experiances with 2 Sabattis: http://forums.accuratereloadin...941082441#9941082441 - I know it's a long read with plenty of opines along the way but it is a faithfull narative of factual problems with 2 Sabatti double rifles.


If my memory serves me correctly, there were about a half-dozen or so folks that had Sabattis with regulation issues (muzzle grinding, etc.).

Additionally I beleive Lionhunter had a Sabatti .500 that had problems other than regulations issues...


Best,
Nemo.

The Sabatti issues have been beaten to death,Sabatti haters is a new term recently on AR,
I have been in camp where we shot a 500 Sabatti,with lousy regulation and ground muzzles,what is so hard to understand about that?
Not once have the distributors or the manufacturer stepped onto the plate and announced what steps they have taken to resolve this defect in regulation,I would not buy a gun just because it is written up in a glossy magazine.
I mean no offense to anyone who has been lucky enough to get a gun that works well for them,but it certainly does not let the manufacturer off the hook for all the lousy ones that are still out there for sale.

An AR poster here was involved, iirc, with the initial design and testing. Cabela's heard and undercut him with Sabatti to take over the US importation. It is my humble opinion that they tried to cut a few corners to save money and proper regulation was a casualty.
When a US company announces a new DR for thousands less than their nearest competition (Chapuis) with equivalent finish and wood; there is a reason it is less expensive.

Some good ones were sold, and some not-so good ones as well. I believe EAA is selling them as well now.

Dear Nemo 450:

You are correct, I mis-typed it as a 470 N. E. instead of the 450 N. E. I changed it in my original posting.

Thank you for directing me to your problems with the Sabatti's.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
An AR poster here was involved, iirc, with the initial design and testing. Cabela's heard and undercut him with Sabatti to take over the US importation. It is my humble opinion that they tried to cut a few corners to save money and proper regulation was a casualty.
When a US company announces a new DR for thousands less than their nearest competition (Chapuis) with equivalent finish and wood; there is a reason it is less expensive.

Some good ones were sold, and some not-so good ones as well. I believe EAA is selling them as well now.

I think this is the thread you're referring to:

new 470 NE for under 9K...possible?

Chris, you will be much happier, in the long run, springing for the Merkel, or better yet a Chapius, than taking the plunge on a Sabatti. I own a Sabatti in .450 3 1/4". It was not regulated by grinding the muzzles. It is reasonably accurate (despite having triggers that are absolutely horrible). But it is a much inferior double compared to a Merkel, Chapius, Krieghoff, etc. Heck, there is a Krieghoff in the AR classifieds for $10,000 with a Schmidt and Bender scope. Offer $9500 for the rifle. Buy the rifle and sell the scope for $1,000 - $1,500 and you are sitting at about $8,000 versus the Sabatti at $5,000. I think you will be far happier in the long run doing something like that.

P.S. I gave up believing the drivel served up in hunting and shooting magazines a long time ago. They are more interested in selling advertising space then they are with giving their readers a candid assessment of a new product.

Mike: Just curious about what makes your Sabatti "much inferior" to the others, besides the horrible triggers that you and others have reported.
Agree about the mags being choked with drivel.

I wish we could have a sub forum for all Sabatti double rifle related threads.

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
I wish we could have a sub forum for all Sabatti double rifle related threads.

Since we don’t have a sub forum for Sabatti, and the man asked the question here I think it would be far more polite to answer it here!

Simply need to make one thing clear! The grinding of the muzzle is not the problem with the Sabattis but is an “indication” of a far worse problem, the makers habit of not regulating the rifle properly at the factory!

If the muzzles have been ground, it indicates the rifle was not properly regulated in the first place, and the grinding of one side or the other of each bore is a SHADE-TREE gun smith’s attempt to correct the problem without re-regulating the rifle properly. This is why that less than perfect operation is called “FINAL REGULATION” on the test target!
Many of the rifles regulated well enough that they didn’t go to that length to try to make it shoot better and regulate it properly, by the accepted method of solder, move wedges, and re-solder till the rifle shot properly.

IMO, they tried to cut cost in the worse possible place they could find! Regulation is the heart of a double rifle, without proper regulation all you have is a piece of wood with two barrels that do not relate to each other in any worthwhile way !

................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
I wish we could have a sub forum for all Sabatti double rifle related threads.

Since we don’t have a sub forum for Sabatti, and the man asked the question here I think it would be far more polite to answer it here!

Simply need to make one thing clear! The grinding of the muzzle is not the problem with the Sabattis but is an “indication” of a far worse problem, the makers habit of not regulating the rifle properly at the factory!

If the muzzles have been ground, it indicates the rifle was not properly regulated in the first place, and the grinding of one side or the other of each bore is a SHADE-TREE gun smith’s attempt to correct the problem without re-regulating the rifle properly. This is why that less than perfect operation is called “FINAL REGULATION” on the test target!
Many of the rifles regulated well enough that they didn’t go to that length to try to make it shoot better and regulate it properly, by the accepted method of solder, move wedges, and re-solder till the rifle shot properly.

IMO, they tried to cut cost in the worse possible place they could find! Regulation is the heart of a double rifle, without proper regulation all you have is a piece of wood with two barrels that do not relate to each other in any worthwhile way !

................................................................................

Not trying to be un-polite. But questions keep coming up on these rifles. Yes I understand the occasional rifle gets out of the factory "ok". If there was a Sabatti sub-forum it would be very easy for many of the newbies and others who are interested in a cheap double to get all the information they need without searching through the regular double rifle forum. Lets face it. These double rifles have had a rash of problems that are not "common" with all the other doubles.

Yale, as an astute attorney, if you review my remarks, you will find NO comment regarding Sabatti. I was merely making an observation about American Rifleman behaving the same way most other commercial magazines do when reviewing a product. Many years ago, A.R. reported and reviewed honestly, warts and all, now it seems they are more concerned with advertising revenue.
As to Sabattis, I have looked them over and seen many with ground muzzles and agree with Mac, this is unacceptable. I think the gun has tremendous promise if the manufacturer would solve the regulation problem properly. They have chosen the low road and will undoubtably fade away from the U.S. double rifle market. If they were as good as they should be, I would have bought one .

Having been to both Blaser and Krieghoff and watched how they make and regulate barres...I cannot belive that their is a simpler or cheaper method. They use a laser in each barrel that must tie up with marks on the wall (the exact possition changes with cal) before the solder is alowed to set.

Then they test fire and junk about 25% of barrels that for whatever obscure reasaon do not regulate. Krieghoff don't even try to fix the problem. That involves hours of skilled workmans time and they have found it more cost effective to start again. Blaser try several different shims before they give up. Junking 25% of basically finished barrels (just need bluing) adds considerably to the cost of the rifles they do sell, but there are no shorcuts to make bad barrels shoot well enough to go out the door.

Yale- If the Muzzels are ground to regulate the rifles they you cannot use solids if you ever want to hunt Elephant etc. with soft points the expansion covers up many a fault and tends to keep the bullet going straight. Not so a solid. It will tumble and then you have a real problem.

Evolution USA was offering a 450/400 on the Chapuis action for 7k using the laser method of barrel regulation. I heard tell of a .450 NE version as well - and with a No BS lifetime guarantee.

Dear Ganyana:

Thank you for your post. I came to the same conclusion that the "modern" regulation that Sabatti was using had to include a laser somewhere.

Having received a number of PM's on the Sabatti, I'm not ready to give up as yet.

I just remember how lousy the early Japanese cars were in the late 1960's and early 1970's. Look at them now.

My second choice would be a Merkel, but it just seems a bit of a lug, whereas the Sabatti has a more elegant feel to it.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Dear Lee440:

You are correct, I should have segregated my comments, and I apologize.

As to being astute about anything, at age 49, I really don't know anything for sure anymore.

Our election of Obama in 2008 still has me scratching my head.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

You should try and come to the SCI show in Feb. You will be able to see and compare guns from all the modern makers.
Dallas Safari Club is next week but not all makers are represented.

Thanks Kebco, that is sound advice.

But back to the original question: Other than the muzzle grinding issue which appears to be in the past, what current issues/problems are there with the new Sabatti's?

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

OK I will bite:

1. Triggers tend to be heavy and "gritty"
2. Tend to be light for caliber in the heavier calibers such as 500 N. I think the last 500 I picked up was at 9.5 lbs
3. This is just looks but they have the that damn ugly dragon for the opening lever, I just cannot get by that.
4. Regulation still in question, there is a reason that they ground the muzzles in the first place...I would not call it in the past.

Hey if 5K is what you want to spend then, by all means there you go--its just about your only choice. If I were spending my cash, I'd look around for a early Merkel, or a Chapuis. I saw a chapuis the other day in 470 sell for 8K with a case and 2 boxes of ammo--and it was a shooter! Merkel guns come up from time to time at between 7.5K-9K and some of those are real shooters too. I have even seen a heym in a 88B 458 sell in the last year for under 10K--and I'd much rather have that than the Sabbati. THe Sabbati has potential but it needs some work!

I think Ken offers the most Sound advice. Go and see for yourself. I have owned 3 different doubles and each one I made money on. I had one english double that I almost doubled my money on. I don't think that can be done anymore with the times we have now, but I do believe if bought correctly you can get at least 100% of your investment back if you buy a quality gun.

I have been a salesman a long time and I have learned one thing, the customer is always right with his money!

Ed

Chris,

My thoughts on areas other than regulation where the Sabatti is inferior:

- Overall fit and finish. The stocks are not particularly attractive in terms of the wood used and the inletting leaves much to be desired. Hold the receiver up to the light and you will see gaps where metal and wood do not meet up.
- The triggers as noted by many are horrible. Whether they can be adjusted to something approaching workable is an experiment I am currently undertaking as my gunsmith is trying to work on them as I type.
- The top lever is done with a cartoonish looking dragon of sorts, something that to me is unbecoming on a double.
- Related to the fit and finish issue, on my rifle the Anson release on the forearm requires the strength of Sampson to open. Maybe over time it will wear in and become easier to work. Or maybe my rifle is unique in this respect.
- A piece of the solder at the end of the barrels came loose, probably an easy fix but why would it come loose on a new rifle?
- The rifles are too light in my opinion. My rifle is a .450 3 1/4" and weighs less than 9.5 pounds. Again, it is fixable and they are adding a recoil reducer to mine. Part of the reason for adding the recoil reducer is to better balance the rifle. It is very barrel heavy.
- The front sight is odd looking. It is akin to a flip up night sight, but there is nothing flip up to it, it is permanently mounted that way. The disk portion of the sight looks like something that would be easy to knock off, I guess time will tell.
- The recoil pad is a POS. Sure it can be replaced but why should you have to buy a new rifle and immediately start replacing things.

Overall, I think the rifle reflects the adage, you get what you pay for. For a $5000 double, the factors noted above may be worth the trade off in price. But the rifles simply cannot compete with the Merkels, Chapius and Krieghoffs.

I know its none of my business but here you go:

1. I'd hate to offer Hal 9K on this--I'd bet he would take it:
http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100219398

2. If you could deal on this--what a sweet rifle--450/400 would be about perfect for everything. http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100209012

3. George may deal on this one. He is a hell of a guy to deal with. Most of the Chapuis that I've fired have been shooters.
http://www.champlinarms.com/De...StyleID=3&GunID=1621

4. I know its about 3 times what the sabatti would cost, and it needs a wood rasp--but a "english" gun for under 15K
http://www.champlinarms.com/De...StyleID=3&GunID=1625

5. This could be a really solid gun: http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100196203
6. Soild looking Searcy gun--THe 1 searcy that I owned and the 3 that I have shot all shot well.
http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100208991

Just a few that I saw that might be delt on for under 10K to right at 10K., but like I said in the post above--its your money.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Having been to both Blaser and Krieghoff and watched how they make and regulate barres...I cannot belive that their is a simpler or cheaper method. They use a laser in each barrel that must tie up with marks on the wall (the exact possition changes with cal) before the solder is alowed to set.

Then they test fire and junk about 25% of barrels that for whatever obscure reasaon do not regulate. Krieghoff don't even try to fix the problem. That involves hours of skilled workmans time and they have found it more cost effective to start again. Blaser try several different shims before they give up. Junking 25% of basically finished barrels (just need bluing) adds considerably to the cost of the rifles they do sell, but there are no shorcuts to make bad barrels shoot well enough to go out the door.

.

Ganyana, I think you are seeing something that is not there, in your visits to these two makers! No shortcuts to make BAD barrels shoot well enough to go out the door??????????????????????? Their whole regulation process if you understood them correctly is a SHORT CUT! I think the key wrods here is "BAD BARRELS"!

All makers use a jig, and laser to make their initial positioning of wedges. They then soft solder and test fire to see if that first guess may have done the trick, which as you say only about 75% are only enough to start regulating, and the other 25% may have a bad barrel and will not print an acceptable individual barrel group so are discarded. If some one there told you they simply scrap the barrel sets that do not regulate with only a laser "FIXING",I think you were simply misled!

Every maker in the world has tried the FIXTURE (jig), and Laser thing and all that are worth their salt still regulate the proper way by trial and error till they shoot properly, with the jig/laser used only to obtain a starting point! It is much the same with CNC machining! It is used to replace the "HOG WORK" getting the parts down close to final shape, work that used to be done by appies. The final fitting and shaping is done by skilled hands. These are both cost cutting moves, and good ones.

If a barrel set is junked it is because one or both of the barrels are bad The fact that a barrel will simply not shoot tight individual groups has nothing to do with regulation, they are simply bad barrels and are not salvagable once they have been hard BRAZED together at the breech end.

Regulation has only to do with where the two barrels point, not how tight each barrel shoots. On big bore doubles the individual barrel groups are held to about 1.5-2 inches at 50 mtrs, and are then regulated so one barrels group will print half its individual group superimposed over half of the other barrels individual group to make a composit group of both barrels. The rifle has then been regulated.

If one or the other barrel simply will not group better than 1.5-2 minutes of angel @50 mtrs, it will be junked. That again has nothing to do with regulation, but is the quality of that particular barrel in which case it should be junked because it is very expensive to disassemble the barrels and replace only one barrel in the pair. However there is no way tossing a pair of good barrels that simply did not regulate with the laser only, is more cost effective than to spend 8-10 hours of trial and error regulating them.

Sometimes the regulator, no matter how he does it may get a "GO" on the first try, but most will need further adjustment. To throw away two perfectly good barrels simply because they did not regulate on the first try is not only wasteful, but a poor business practice.

I simply and plainly do not believe you have your facts straight! All just my opinion, however, and worth what you are willing to pay for it! your choice!

Dear Mike:

Thanks. That is the critique that I'm looking for.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Chris,

As others have noted there are some issues as far as wood-to-metal fit, lightweight design, and bad recoil pad. On the other hand, if you get one that shoots for $5,000, you have a good rifle at a great price. Cabelas' has great customer service and have shown that they will refund the cost of the rifle if it doesn't match the regulation target. All that one would be out is the cost of ammunition. I know that I would gamble a $100 worth of ammo if it ment that I could possibly have a double rifle. Hell, I would would probably pay a $100 to go have a great afternoon on the range with a double rifle.

In the end, I've shot my Sabatti over a hundred times and killed a deer, a muflon sheep, and a couple of rock chucks with it. It does have ground muzzles which can affect the penetration and stability, but I'm not taking a 45-70 on a buff hunt. I might shoot a thin skined American Buffalo with it or an elk if I can get close enough. But that is why I hunt with a double. I'll most likely never have enough money to take the trip to the Dark Continent but I can live vicariously through the stories of the AR members. And thats good enough for me.

Sincerely,

Tyler

As information, the figure on the top lever IS NOT a dragon. It is a fox. This was explained to me by Gabrielle Sabatti himself while I ate lunch with him in Toronto 2 years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by ron vella:
As information, the figure on the top lever IS NOT a dragon. It is a fox.

Now I like it even less.

A related question: I own a sabatti in 450/400 it shoots within a 2 inch spread at 50 but not as consistent at 100. It has the ground muzzles. Do I send it back to cabelas or keep it? My thought has been if it shoots good it is good, regardless of the fact that the muzzles are egg shaped. Advice?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ron vella:
As information, the figure on the top lever IS NOT a dragon. It is a fox.

Now I like it even less.

quote:

Originally posted by Rastaman:
A related question: I own a sabatti in 450/400 it shoots within a 2 inch spread at 50 but not as consistent at 100. It has the ground muzzles. Do I send it back to cabelas or keep it? My thought has been if it shoots good it is good, regardless of the fact that the muzzles are egg shaped. Advice?

I know what I would do...

I'd not own a rifle that had been "redneck engineered" like that, I find it simply inexcusable.

Dear Toughdown88:

Thanks for your feedback.

Well, I'm off to Hamburg Cabelas to take another gander at the Sabatti and a Merkel they have for sale, too.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by Rastaman:
A related question: I own a sabatti in 450/400 it shoots within a 2 inch spread at 50 but not as consistent at 100. It has the ground muzzles. Do I send it back to cabelas or keep it? My thought has been if it shoots good it is good, regardless of the fact that the muzzles are egg shaped. Advice?

Are you happy with the rifle? Can you shoot at 100 yards consistantly with other iron sighted guns? Do you plan on shooting a lot of game at 100 yards or more with your double?
I'm not saying the muzzle grinding is good and I think it should never be done but the guns do seem to shoot the ammo they were regulated for. Like any double some only like one kind of ammo. I have doubles that shoot great and I have some that shoot OK. I have some that will shoot just about anything you put in them, now thats regulated. I've had doubles from other makers that have had problems also even after they have been in business for a long time. Sure all of them stood behind their product and fixed the problem.
I bought a 500 Sabatti because I wanted to see what they were like. So far it shoots well even though I had to make new sights for it. Yes it had a hard piece of junk butt on it but the stock was long so I cut it, at least they left room to work with. This gun will probably be my hunting gun because I want a knock around gun. Every double I've taken to Africa has ended up with all kinds of bangs and bumps on it. I hunt with my guns but I hate to see them get beat up. I'm going to put my Sabatti to the test and give it a chance before I make a property corner out of it. If it passes it will be my go to double!

Sam

Sabatti 500 NE with CEB#13 Non con at 70 yards. Neck shot. Oh I love my peep sight.



Sam

Both Krighoff and Blaser regulate at 70m. If they cannot make the barels shoot quickly and esaliy they junk them.

Personally I never check doubles boyond 25mwith solids and 75m with softs

I have a Blaser S2 in .470NE and absolutely love it. Haven't had a chance to shoot it much this year as I wore it out and got it back from Blaser too late to take to Zim but with the ability to regulate the group (in and out) with the wedge block in the middle, it helps me to tailor the groups with the loads I am shooting. Hornady DGS shoots one shot out of each barrel touching at 50 yards. Pretty respectable accuracy. Am waiting on a Searcy in .470 NE that I just picked up, used, and will see what it will do. Butch has already provided me with the regulation load data and I will have some loaded and waiting.

Dear Ganyana,

You are certainly a very well known name and an expert on all forms of African Hunting & Shooting. I have followed your writing for some time with a great deal of admiration. Your quotes and thoughts in African Dangerous Game Cartridges by Pierre van der Walt (which is the finest effort I have ever read on the subject, it fact it is so well written it is only the second book in my life I have read twice because it was so interesting). We have many friends in the Gun Trade from Foremen to Apprentices and have a Firm which has manufactured the odd double over the past 170 odd years. Some guns are good, some are fantastic but as long as they function properly and a reliable load is worked up I find it dispicable to rain on some poor buggers parade because they do not purchase or cannot afford a $180,000.00 toy. I certainly have seen as many of the super whamo guns go south as I have the Sabatti or some of the other less costly guns. There was a gentleman on this site whom I followed with great interest relative his Sabatti. He developed and installed a peep sight and it was a fantastic job. There are so many great folks out there who as long as the barrels can be made to regulate definately have the ability to make a silk purse from a sows ear. I am not big on class envy, lots of folks simply cannot afford or justify spending more than the 6K for something which was only a dream to them until the Sabatti came along. We think that folks like the gentleman who thought up the prrp sites and so many others who have come up with great ideas. We even have a client who is ex-NFL offensive lineman who is left handed. We removed the cheek piece, cast the stock on for him, it fits like a glove and shoots well with the factory loads, 1 - 2 inches @ 50 meters off hand. That would not work for most of us but this lad is one very strong guy. Thanks for being there and all of your writing. If you have a chance you should do a review and everyone who has a love for Big Bores should have a copy of African Dangerous Game Cartridges.

Respectfully,

Glenn

I've never seen a Sabatti nor booked a hunt with Blair Worldwide. Each may, on most occasions, deliver a fine product. But from what I've read on this forum, I think there are better alternatives out there.

Sir,

I am not certain if I have the correct person or not but I think so. I really am not a wizzard at communicating properly on this site. I have I think read up on you and your efforts on sorting out a peep sight for your rifle. If it is indeed you I simply wish to tell you that you are an absolute genius. Not only does it function but it looks great. The support from the Importers may not be proper but there is certainly more than one way to skin a cat. We have found that it is indeed a it difficult to use the open sights with the base for the scope fixed but we milled down the center of the base so that it is no longer a problem and the QD scope fits fine an ther is no longer a problem with the open sights if one chooses to leave the mount affixed.. Is there a way to contact folks on this by e-mail?

Respectfully,

Glenn

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Sabatti 500 NE with CEB#13 Non con at 70 yards. Neck shot. Oh I love my peep sight.



Sam