For non dangerous game it would be neat. The few times I have played with them I think they are a bit cumbersome to use. Really cool design, obviously a long way from traditional, but they do appear to be strong as hell.

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
For non dangerous game it would be neat. The few times I have played with them I think they are a bit cumbersome to use. Really cool design, obviously a long way from traditional, but they do appear to be strong as hell.

I agree completely! The design, however, is vey well thought out and required a lot of complex machining to build. It is evident that it required a very skilled machinist to build this thing and it is evident the thing is as strong as a bank vault.
I would love to own one simply because the design is so rare, and because no matter how usable or useless it may be, it is a double rifle and that alone makes it valuable to a double rifle collector.

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quote:

It is evident that it required a very skilled machinist to build this thing and it is evident the thing is as strong as a bank vault.

George IS one of the best, period.

fly over some weekend, and I'll drive you up to his shop to see one. They are really neat.

Rich

George also built one heck of a stock duplicator

Just for the fun of it.....

What in your guys opinion makes this rifle not well suited for a DG rifle?...I watched the video and he seems to be proficient at dumping the empties and reloading in a reasonable time frame. He definitely reloaded it faster than some of the DG hunting shows I've seen on TV were the hunter fumbles around trying to get the new rounds in and back in action.

It may be double rifles, it may be cartridges, it may be bullets. Seems like every Nimrod needs to reinvent the wheel.
Cal

I always thought it was made in Germany!

I wonder how it would look as a SXS??

Should be possible to profile it on the outside like a more traditional looking SXS with fences and small bolster for just the look.

I thought his unloading the empties was not that fast. I wonder how fast the reloading will be compared to a traditional double.

Ja, it's a Vierling with a rotating lock and a barrel or two missing, slower to load and reload but probably stronger. Austro-Hungarian makers were doing similar stuff in the 16th century without the cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter: I wonder how it would look as a SXS??

LIKE THIS

instead of

L
I
K
E

T
H
I
S

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter: I wonder how it would look as a SXS??

LIKE THIS

instead of

L
I
K
E

T
H
I
S

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Just for the fun of it.....

What in your guys opinion makes this rifle not well suited for a DG rifle?...I watched the video and he seems to be proficient at dumping the empties and reloading in a reasonable time frame. He definitely reloaded it faster than some of the DG hunting shows I've seen on TV were the hunter fumbles around trying to get the new rounds in and back in action.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

I thought his unloading the empties was not that fast. I wonder how fast the reloading will be compared to a traditional double.

I agree with Nakihunter! It is certainly obvious that since he is the one who built that rifle, and because it is not the first one he has built, I’m sure he has practiced shooting this thing for many years. That fact alone should have made him quite proficient in the loading shooting and re-loading the rifle. IMO, his shooting and reloading was quite slow.
Comparing him to the clients in most safari shows who most likely are shooting their double rifle for only a comparatively short time, and likely have never before owned a double rifle, to a person that has not only been shooting doubles for many years, but building them as well, is like comparing a city commuting van driver to a formula one car driver.

There are many shooters who are members of DRSS who could smoke that guy for four shots all on target. Most can get off four shots in under five seconds, all on target, and a few who can shed two seconds off that very fast time with S/S double rifles even with extractors.

You would be amazed to watch most of the guys shooting at DRSS events, with S/S doubles.

None of this is to take away from the rotary! It is what it is, and it is an amazing piece of workmanship, but is a novelty in the double rifle world. That rifle would be very well suited to deer/elk/moose hunting but I wouldn’t want it in my hands with a cape buffalo advancing on me, no matter the cartridges in the chambers! Still I would love to own one of them in my collection!
..........................................................................

Here is one sold on Guns America, $22k.
17HMR to me is an odd choice of cartridge, charging jack rabbits?
https://www.gunsamerica.com/92...und-Action-17HMR.htm

quote:

Here is one sold on Guns America, $22k.
17HMR to me is an odd choice of cartridge, charging jack rabbits?

Here is a pic of that 17 in the white. It's one of the first two. I took this pic a bunch of years ago when I interviewed George.

you can work one pretty fast with a wee bit of practice. Snap Caps my Good Man!!

I have shot with Sam (Michael458's threads) and he is incredibly quick in reloading and shooting again with his various doubles.

That was 7 years ago and I am sure he could have only got faster & better at shooting his doubles.

This rotary video shows a very average reloading speed IMHO.

I'll clarify something Ron said in the piece. The rifles aren't built one at a time, all five are built one piece at a time. In other words he makes the same piece for each rifle, then moves on the next piece. YOu can tell this by the pic I posted, each rifle/shotgun is in the same stage of production. A particular piece of note is that little wedge you can see on the .410 barrels in the center. That piece contends with both tapering barrels as well as diminishing radius contours on the barrels, and is one of the most complex pieces to get perfect so. says George.

I'd love to have one in 9.3 x 74.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
Just for the fun of it.....

What in your guys opinion makes this rifle not well suited for a DG rifle?...I watched the video and he seems to be proficient at dumping the empties and reloading in a reasonable time frame. He definitely reloaded it faster than some of the DG hunting shows I've seen on TV were the hunter fumbles around trying to get the new rounds in and back in action.

Its just a very awkward motion to perform in my opinion. Would you get use to it? Sure. But it is like 3 seperate operations to open. Don't get me wrong, the workmanship is incredible and I thought the price very fair compared to other doubles. I don't think he has made very many though but I could be wrong. Have only seen used ones come up once or twice. Does he have any plans for the business to be carried on? Last time I seen him a few years ago at one of the shows he was getting up there in age.

I think the workmanship and the quality are incredible. While complex to make internally, the basic operation is simpler with no fore end or any lever to open.

IMHO a SXS would be more functional for the following resons

• The O/U design results in the barrels changing to left and right when twisted.
  
• When you then tilt the open rifle to dump the empties, it is O/U again. Watch the video & you will see that the under barrel empty runs the risk of not falling out quickly if reloaded in a hurry.
  
• The SXS configuration would result in the barrels being opened and the empties tiled out in a smooth motion - reloading is much faster
  

I also just personally like the SXS configuration & the classic looks - like the new Heym fore ends give it the classic English look.

I have held one (not shot one) and one thing I couldn't get around is the feeling that you had to actually hold the action closed while shouldering it.
Also, the hinge is so puny compared to the bar and hinge on a traditional double, it just felt fragile when open. I am sure that is just perception and in fact, the rifle would probably even fire with no hinge at all since its action is similar in concept to the lugs of a bolt action in that when in battery, it is held together on its own with no other locking mechanism.

It is an absolutely beautiful piece of work. A very clever solution to a nonexistent problem.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
It may be double rifles, it may be cartridges, it may be bullets. Seems like every Nimrod needs to reinvent the wheel.
Cal

Yes, forget innovation, we should have stayed with the matchlock and called it good.

quote:

Originally posted by DOPPELGANGSTER:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
It may be double rifles, it may be cartridges, it may be bullets. Seems like every Nimrod needs to reinvent the wheel.
Cal

Yes, forget innovation, we should have stayed with the matchlock and called it good.

DOPPELGANGSTER, It is one thing to make changes in something that works fine if it actually improves what we already have! I’m quite sure the matchlock was an improvement over Chinese hand cannon, and I’m almost certain there were many improvements between the matchlock and the break top double rifles we have today.
That being said I certainly do not consider the rifle that garnered this conversation, to be an improvement over what we already have today.

As I said earlier, I would love to own one of these very unconventional double rifles simply because it is an example of the trial and error in the evolution that was tried, but simply did not constitute an improvement in the field, only shows what can be done by a very good machinist. I think that is what was meant by Call’s statement, and he is quite correct in that opinion, at least in this case.

We need inventive minded people like Mr. Koenig, but everything tried is not necessarily an improvement simply because it is different! That happens to be the case here in my opinion!
.....................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by DOPPELGANGSTER:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
It may be double rifles, it may be cartridges, it may be bullets. Seems like every Nimrod needs to reinvent the wheel.
Cal

Yes, forget innovation, we should have stayed with the matchlock and called it good.

DOPPELGANGSTER, It is one thing to make changes in something that works fine if it actually improves what we already have! I’m quite sure the matchlock was an improvement over Chinese hand cannon, and I’m almost certain there were many improvements between the matchlock and the break top double rifles we have today.
That being said I certainly do not consider the rifle that garnered this conversation, to be an improvement over what we already have today.

As I said earlier, I would love to own one of these very unconventional double rifles simply because it is an example of the trial and error in the evolution that was tried, but simply did not constitute an improvement in the field, only shows what can be done by a very good machinist. I think that is what was meant by Call’s statement, and he is quite correct in that opinion, at least in this case.

We need inventive minded people like Mr. Koenig, but everything tried is not necessarily an improvement simply because it is different! That happens to be the case here in my opinion!
.....................................................................

Mac, if we follow your logic, why would any of us continue to use the traditional break action double? The Blaser S2 is clearly an improvement in strength, durability, and safety.

quote:

Originally posted by DOPPELGANGSTER:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by DOPPELGANGSTER:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
It may be double rifles, it may be cartridges, it may be bullets. Seems like every Nimrod needs to reinvent the wheel.
Cal

Yes, forget innovation, we should have stayed with the matchlock and called it good.

DOPPELGANGSTER, It is one thing to make changes in something that works fine if it actually improves what we already have! I’m quite sure the matchlock was an improvement over Chinese hand cannon, and I’m almost certain there were many improvements between the matchlock and the break top double rifles we have today.
That being said I certainly do not consider the rifle that garnered this conversation, to be an improvement over what we already have today.

As I said earlier, I would love to own one of these very unconventional double rifles simply because it is an example of the trial and error in the evolution that was tried, but simply did not constitute an improvement in the field, only shows what can be done by a very good machinist. I think that is what was meant by Call’s statement, and he is quite correct in that opinion, at least in this case.

We need inventive minded people like Mr. Koenig, but everything tried is not necessarily an improvement simply because it is different! That happens to be the case here in my opinion!
.....................................................................

Mac, if we follow your logic, why would any of us continue to use the traditional break action double? The Blaser S2 is clearly an improvement in strength, durability, and safety.

But it handles like a fence post.

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:

quote:

Originally posted by DOPPELGANGSTER:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by DOPPELGANGSTER:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
It may be double rifles, it may be cartridges, it may be bullets. Seems like every Nimrod needs to reinvent the wheel.
Cal

Yes, forget innovation, we should have stayed with the matchlock and called it good.

DOPPELGANGSTER, It is one thing to make changes in something that works fine if it actually improves what we already have! I’m quite sure the matchlock was an improvement over Chinese hand cannon, and I’m almost certain there were many improvements between the matchlock and the break top double rifles we have today.
That being said I certainly do not consider the rifle that garnered this conversation, to be an improvement over what we already have today.

As I said earlier, I would love to own one of these very unconventional double rifles simply because it is an example of the trial and error in the evolution that was tried, but simply did not constitute an improvement in the field, only shows what can be done by a very good machinist. I think that is what was meant by Call’s statement, and he is quite correct in that opinion, at least in this case.

We need inventive minded people like Mr. Koenig, but everything tried is not necessarily an improvement simply because it is different! That happens to be the case here in my opinion!
.....................................................................

Mac, if we follow your logic, why would any of us continue to use the traditional break action double? The Blaser S2 is clearly an improvement in strength, durability, and safety.

But it handles like a fence post.

Not as dainty as English guns for sure. Personally, I don't care for poofter weight rifles - doubles or others.

quote:

Originally posted by DOPPELGANGSTER:

Mac, if we follow your logic, why would any of us continue to use the traditional break action double? The Blaser S2 is clearly an improvement in strength, durability, and safety.

Here again the Blaser S2 is not an improvement where the double rifle we have today is concerned!

It is true that #1 safe to carry fully loaded. #2 it is strong. However, it is also true #3 the floating block and attendant hood interfere with a quick re-load, #4 The mechanism is not the safest double rifle for hunting dangerous game,the main reason for a S/S double rifle.

The S-2 has one very serious draw-back in it's action design. The action automatically de-cocks the action if opened for any reason. This is even worse than any dangerous game double with a auto safety. Even a traditional double rifle with an auto safety, at least, the rifle re-cocks it's self when opened for a re-load but unless it is ordered by the customer, the traditional DG double rifle is not made with a AUTO SAFETY.

Many cape buffalo, elephant or lion requires more than two rounds to stop them, and I certainly do not want a double in my hands that requires manually re-cocking once it is closed after a re-load in the middle of a fire fight with a wounded cape buffalo,Ele or lion.

Many think that the Blaser S-2 has the same system as the Krieghoff double rifle, and it does not! Once the K-gun is cocked it can be opened for any reason and it remains cocked. If the rifle has fired both barrels and must be re-loaded the K-guns action re-cocks the rifle on opening. That fact is a huge difference between the two. I certainly do not want to hunt any dangerous animal with a rifle that doesn't automatically re-cock it's action when opened for a re-load in a fight for my life.

This is why all properly made double rifles in calibers used for dangerous game are made with manual safeties, and The S-2 is the only double I know of that even worse than a dangerous game double with an auto safety. It actually de-cocks the rifle and must be manually re-cocked if opened for any reason and has no facility to re-cock it's self in the middle of a close-in fight.

You may consider the S-2 as an improvement over the traditional break top doubles but I certainly do not! Certainly, simply because something is NEW, doesn't necessarily mean it is an improvement! That is the case for the Blaser S-2, and the Rotary double rifle that started this thread. The K-gun is another story, however. It has draw-backs but they are in the balance and stock design for a lot of people, all can be remedied in the case of the K-gun,not so with the Blaser S-2.

Mac, all good points but as with any system, training and proficiency are crucial. You wouldn't want to hunt dangerous game with me, I use a caplock single with irons.

quote:

Originally posted by DOPPELGANGSTER:
Mac, all good points but as with any system, training and proficiency are crucial. You wouldn't want to hunt dangerous game with me, I use a caplock single with irons.

DOPPELGANGSTER, again you are wrong! I would love to hunt dangerous game with you, so I could back you up with my traditional double rifles with irons, just in case your very quick re-load was a little too slow!!
I also have a cap-lock double rifle but I don't hunt dangerous game with it!
......................................................................

Since it came up I went and looked at the Blaser line. Never had any real interest in one, per se, still don't.

The question for me becomes: If the auto safety decocks the locks upon opening the breach, how does it cock? Is it that little thumb tab behind the latch? If so, that strikes me as about dumb.

And for the record, no, I do not own any of the fancy doubles most of you guys do and talk about. Mine are on the low end. And except for the occasional bear I don't hunt dangerous game.

Inquiring minds and all that.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by DOPPELGANGSTER:
Mac, all good points but as with any system, training and proficiency are crucial. You wouldn't want to hunt dangerous game with me, I use a caplock single with irons.

DOPPELGANGSTER, again you are wrong! I would love to hunt dangerous game with you, so I could back you up with my traditional double rifles with irons, just in case your very quick re-load was a little too slow!!
I also have a cap-lock double rifle but I don't hunt dangerous game with it!
......................................................................

Thanks for the offer, Mac! I'll ring ya if I need some back up.

quote:

Originally posted by drhall762:
Since it came up I went and looked at the Blaser line. Never had any real interest in one, per se, still don't.

The question for me becomes: If the auto safety decocks the locks upon opening the breach, how does it cock? Is it that little thumb tab behind the latch? If so, that strikes me as about dumb.

Inquiring minds and all that.

Drhall762, you are correct! If a Blaser S-2 is opened for any reason the rifle automatically de-cocks the rifle, (actually what it does is relieves the tumbler springs ) and the shooter must push the large sliding button that looks like a common tang safety to re-cock it. It takes some pressure to re-cock the rifle.

You are right it is just dumb, and is an unnecessary hindrance for a dangerous game rifle. If the S-2 is used for non-dangerous game or things like black bear from a tree stand then the system doesn’t matter.

As I said earlier, the Krieghoff double rifle is different. That rifle, once cocked, will remain cocked if the rifle is opened to check if the rifle is loaded. If the K-rifle has fired one or both barrels the opening of the rifle automatically re-cocks the rifle so it is ready to fire as soon as it is closed! The K-rifle is also safe to carry fully loaded with the combi-cocking lever pushed forward slightly and released or pulled to the rear.

Many think these two double rifles work the same way but they absolutely do not!

......................................................................

Thanks. Wanted to make sure I understood it.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by drhall762:
Since it came up I went and looked at the Blaser line. Never had any real interest in one, per se, still don't.

The question for me becomes: If the auto safety decocks the locks upon opening the breach, how does it cock? Is it that little thumb tab behind the latch? If so, that strikes me as about dumb.

Inquiring minds and all that.

Drhall762, you are correct! If a Blaser S-2 is opened for any reason the rifle automatically de-cocks the rifle, (actually what it does is relieves the tumbler springs ) and the shooter must push the large sliding button that looks like a common tang safety to re-cock it. It takes some pressure to re-cock the rifle.

You are right it is just dumb, and is an unnecessary hindrance for a dangerous game rifle. If the S-2 is used for non-dangerous game or things like black bear from a tree stand then the system doesn’t matter.

As I said earlier, the Krieghoff double rifle is different. That rifle, once cocked, will remain cocked if the rifle is opened to check if the rifle is loaded. If the K-rifle has fired one or both barrels the opening of the rifle automatically re-cocks the rifle so it is ready to fire as soon as it is closed! The K-rifle is also safe to carry fully loaded with the combi-cocking lever pushed forward slightly and released or pulled to the rear.

Many think these two double rifles work the same way but they absolutely do not!

......................................................................

So, how is this less safe than a bolt gun on DG?

The S2 doesn't have potential feeding screw-ups, short stroke, slow ass reloading issues. More than a few DG beasties have been offed by bolt guns.

quote:

Originally posted by DOPPELGANGSTER:
So, how is this less safe than a bolt gun on DG?

The S2 doesn't have potential feeding screw-ups, short stroke, slow ass reloading issues. More than a few DG beasties have been offed by bolt guns.

.....And many more beasties will be taken with bolt rifles! You know there are bolt rifles and then there are other bolt rifles. Just like double rifles some are the same in name only.

The classic double rifle will always be more reliable than even the best bolt rifle. However just like the difference between the S-2 and proper double rifles there are differences between bolt rifles. In both cases that differences can be avoided by choosing the best system in either type.

I personally would rather have a good control feed bolt rifle which I have a number of, than a Blaser S-2 but I would rather have one of my S/S classic double rifles than the bolt rifle. So I guess you could say I would rather have just about anything other than a Blaser S-2 double for dangerous game.
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Well screw it then, I'm gonna take a volley gun with no sights. No aiming, no reloading, one trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by DOPPELGANGSTER:
Well screw it then, I'm gonna take a volley gun with no sights. No aiming, no reloading, one trigger.

Time to bury this!