Yes N160 with 104 grains was still slow - only 1870 - 1920 fps. N560 with 105 gr was 1745 - 1880 fps. Solids were faster with same load just like Graeme Wright and others have reported.

Some sources go to 112 gr! Way too much recoil for me! Recoil was still high at 104-105 gr and I decided to try for powders with lower charge weight & foam backer rod filler.

I am also not totally confident that I am controlling the rifle well at the bench and having a consistent sight picture. So I am now going to just practice control and consistency using 400 gr pistol bullets and 340 gr cast powder coated bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
Hi,

Have you considered N140 or N160 from Vihtavouri ? They gave good result both for speed and accuracy in my VC 450 NE.

Morten

Sorry I see you mention N160 above… Have you tried it ?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:


Here are the targets from yesterday.

I am not quite getting there with Re 15. I know I can go to 90gr. Not sure if that is max.

Ar2209 (H4350) has a lot more promise as i can go up to 102 gr if required but I may not need to.

I am hoping that 99 to 100 grs will give me 2150 fps and good regulation.

N160 is not for this rifle.

I don't know about your rifle but my VC regulates at 92 Grains RE-15 with either Barnes or CEBs right above 2100fps.

I suspect you could also go to 92, but maybe do it one grain at a time.

.

Thanks for sharing Naki.

Go blow some goats...I mean go shoot some goats..:LOL

With 90 gr of Re15, I got only 1970 fps with softs and 1924 fps with solids. But the problem is that the velocities are so erratic. I actually got more with 89 gr! I am using foam rod filler.

Good to know that 92 gr is ok.

Are you using foam filler?

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
With 90 gr of Re15, I got only 1970 fps with softs and 1924 fps with solids. But the problem is that the velocities are so erratic. I actually got more with 89 gr! I am using foam rod filler.

Good to know that 92 gr is ok.

Are you using foam filler?

Yeah, I started with the kynoch fillers then just started cutting them out of 1/2" backer rod. Much cheaper and easier to get.

This load also recoil noticeably less than the load i was using with h4831.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Yes N160 with 104 grains was still slow - only 1870 - 1920 fps. N560 with 105 gr was 1745 - 1880 fps. Solids were faster with same load just like Graeme Wright and others have reported.

Some sources go to 112 gr! Way too much recoil for me! Recoil was still high at 104-105 gr and I decided to try for powders with lower charge weight & foam backer rod filler.

I am also not totally confident that I am controlling the rifle well at the bench and having a consistent sight picture. So I am now going to just practice control and consistency using 400 gr pistol bullets and 340 gr cast powder coated bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
Hi,

Have you considered N140 or N160 from Vihtavouri ? They gave good result both for speed and accuracy in my VC 450 NE.

Morten

Sorry I see you mention N160 above… Have you tried it ?

Shooting 18 rounds a weekend and getting your cheekbone beat up plus finger skinned it is no wonder you are struggling with control and sight picture at the bench. Get onto those cast bullets as you are proposing and get some enjoyment off the bench from your 470, hopefully you can get a load that groups well even if you have to compensate for point of aim then go and knock over some animals. I would never have fired that many full house rounds from my light 404 off the bench or hunting, I just don't get any enjoyment from bruised shoulders and headaches and there is a good chance of ruining good control and shooting with other rifles if you persist with getting knocked around.
I seemed to recall you went down this same route for a while with your 416 and I think I made similar comments at the time (maybe wrong here so apologise if I am). Cast with light loads of fast powder are just so much more pleasurable to shoot in terms of enjoyment from loading for and shooting a big bore.

I am a sucker for punishment ain't I!

I just love shooting the rifle and even just holding it and enjoying the feel.

The 416 Rigby was less of an issue as it shot well and to point of aim. Once I kept the velocity to 2450 fps max, I was fine.

With the 470NE, the right barrel point of impact is the issue. The otehr problem is the error messages on the chrony, probably from the bits of filler. We now have the chrony at 7 to 8 meters from the rifle and we get much fewer error readings.

I have now loaded 400 gr pistol bullets & AR 2208 for far less recoil. Waiting to try it out.

I have decided to keep the lead bullets for later, once I have the regulation sorted. I may shoot the powder coated ones next. I am also getting 340gr powder coated bullets from the US.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Yes N160 with 104 grains was still slow - only 1870 - 1920 fps. N560 with 105 gr was 1745 - 1880 fps. Solids were faster with same load just like Graeme Wright and others have reported.

Some sources go to 112 gr! Way too much recoil for me! Recoil was still high at 104-105 gr and I decided to try for powders with lower charge weight & foam backer rod filler.

I am also not totally confident that I am controlling the rifle well at the bench and having a consistent sight picture. So I am now going to just practice control and consistency using 400 gr pistol bullets and 340 gr cast powder coated bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
Hi,

Have you considered N140 or N160 from Vihtavouri ? They gave good result both for speed and accuracy in my VC 450 NE.

Morten

Sorry I see you mention N160 above… Have you tried it ?

Shooting 18 rounds a weekend and getting your cheekbone beat up plus finger skinned it is no wonder you are struggling with control and sight picture at the bench. Get onto those cast bullets as you are proposing and get some enjoyment off the bench from your 470, hopefully you can get a load that groups well even if you have to compensate for point of aim then go and knock over some animals. I would never have fired that many full house rounds from my light 404 off the bench or hunting, I just don't get any enjoyment from bruised shoulders and headaches and there is a good chance of ruining good control and shooting with other rifles if you persist with getting knocked around.
I seemed to recall you went down this same route for a while with your 416 and I think I made similar comments at the time (maybe wrong here so apologise if I am). Cast with light loads of fast powder are just so much more pleasurable to shoot in terms of enjoyment from loading for and shooting a big bore.

Ha ha we are all suckers for punishment at times, I think this each time I'm in the middle of the Alps Tahr hunting, but as long as we get enjoyment from it somewhere along the line we keep going back for more, enjoyment that is!!!!

I started off clay target shooting with my AYA double shotgun and while it seemed okay for game bird shooting it booted my face when used for prolonged shooting on the clays so I know the feeling.

Hopefully you can get an accurate load from your pistol bullets and can get into the field, look forward to seeing results.

I shot the rifle yesterday and had some good results.

I forgot to mention that my friend Grant also shoots with me, so we share the punishment!




I shot 2XLR with 100 gr N150 for soft & 98 gr for solid. Got 2140 fps and 2070 fps. So I may decide to go to 100 gr for the solid as well.

This is virtually identical to AR2209 (H4350) loads but the N150 is more consistent.

For the first time both barrels shot to similar POA. I actually got 2 bulls - 2 inches & 1 bit low & 1 pulled down.

We both shot 13 rounds of 400 gr pistol bullets and got 1910 fps with 74 gr of AR 2208 (Varget) . 3 inch composite group with 12 shots from both barrels - 2.5 inches below bull. 1 shot pulled off target.

I might get a can of Trail Boss and try some light loads for fun.

After 5 reloads, I found these two out of 17 cases! I can actually feel the groove of thin brass. One is almost right around the case and the other is 50%.

The rest seem fine so far.

I would be interested to know how many reloads others here get from their cases. I am using Norma brass.

I actually have the option to buy 20 new Norma brass for 30% discount right now. But I already have 20 new brass and I am awaiting delivery of 40 Hornady brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:



After 5 reloads, I found these two out of 17 cases! I can actually feel the groove of thin brass. One is almost right around the case and the other is 50%.

The rest seem fine so far.

I would be interested to know how many reloads others here get from their cases. I am using Norma brass.

I actually have the option to buy 20 new Norma brass for 30% discount right now. But I already have 20 new brass and I am awaiting delivery of 40 Hornady brass.

Oops, similarly to the belted cases you will get longer life from headspacing carefully on the shoulder rather than pushing the shoulder back and headspacing on the rim.

Of course with a break open action you do not have the camming action as a bolt gun does where light resistance to closing the bolt is perfectly acceptable to minimise headspace but not good for the hinge pin wear on a double. A very slight drag should be okay though.

Also a known thing if shooting cast, and probably any light loads, is to keep your cases separate from those used for full house loads i.e. don't load full house in cases previously used with light loads. This may only apply to rimless bottle neck cases as apparently it is to do with firing pin blows increasing headspace by driving the case forward, effectively driving the shoulder back with the light loads not overcoming this tendency. Anyway that's what the experts say and I have always used one lot of cases for cast and another for full house.

Incipient head separation as you are seeing is always too much headspace and you shouldn't get this after 5 reloads, I'd be pissed if you did with expensive cases such as those and I don't think my scrouge way of silver soldering up case neck splits as I do to salvage my many times fired 404 Jeffery cases as likely to work on your case heads

In my reloads from the past 30 years of double shooting:

1-2 reloads from lathe turned brass with a shoulder, nitro express.

6-10 reloads from drawn brass with a shoulder.

12-16 reloads from drawn brass with a shoulder by BELL

6-8 reloads from turned brass, straight case, black powder express.

15-20 reloads from drawn brass, stright case, black powder express.

20-25 reloads from drawn brass straight case, nitro express, and more with bpe, made by BELL

The BELL brass proved so good I bought a life time supply for all of my doubles. It's the best brass ever made.

About half way thorugh the reloading numbers I trim the cases as they stretch a bit.

For what it's worth.
Cal

Naki,

Here's a description of what I went through to get my 470 Evans shooting well.

It was my first double so I had a couple experienced double rifle guys join me.

My range allows you to load while you are working up a rifle so I had my press, bullets, powder, etc all there.

At first we tried R-15 with filler, the bullets were Woodleigh 500gr softs, the cases were BELL and the primers were Fed 215s.

We worked up over my chronograph and went up and down incrementally in powder charge. The results were similar to your groups, no adjustment we made was having a consistent impact.

I was getting frustrated because a particular powder charge would show promise then fall apart on further testing.

Finally, we decided to try IMR 4831 and the difference was spectacular. The rifle would shoot a 4 shot 1 1/2" group at 50yds consistently.

I also learned a lesson regarding the difference in lots of IMR 4831. When I ran through that bottle and bought a new one the rifle shot apart, it was consistent but I had to increase the powder charge to bring the regulation back in. I subsequently bought an 8 pound canister and have been slowing going through it.

I have since owned and regulated 15 double rifles, some shot better with one powder or the other but I haven't seen one with such a preference for one powder.

I would also recommend once you have your regulation load developed, that you try some Speer .475 400 gr bullets for practice. I would load them over the same powder charge as regulated with your 500 gr bullets. The recoil is much reduced and will increase your enjoyment of the rifle. Some guys refer to shooting a lighter weight bullet over the standard powder charge as the "75% Rule, with the 75% referring to the bullet weighing 75% of what the standard bullet weighs. It is worth trying and has worked in almost all my nitro rifles. You'll notice as well in the old ammo catalogs some of the calibers were offered in multiple bullet weights.

One more thing, to help identify any case separation, take a paper clip and straighten it out, then make quarter inch 90 degree bend at one end. As you resize your cases run the bent end down into the bottom of the case and feel for any ring, if it's there discard the case.

I would see if you can get your hands on any BELL cases, they seem to last forever.

I look forward to reading your results. Enjoy the rifle, it's a beauty!

Thanks guys.

The Norma brass is soft, as others have mentioned before. I have another lot of 20 new Norma brass and 40 new Hornady brass coming from Reloading International.

Not sure if I can get BELL brass here in NZ. Do any Kiwis know of a distributor / importer?

As mentioned earlier in the thread, my chambers seem really "sloppy". I am partial sizing the neck - about an inch and still the shoulder does not move forward. The neck portion of the chamber is really HUGE - Partial sizing gives me a mini bottle neck in the neck!

Just back out the sizing die one turn to avoid setting the shoulder back. To keep my die set for others to use, I place a washer between the die and press for the same result.
cal

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Thanks guys.

The Norma brass is soft, as others have mentioned before. I have another lot of 20 new Norma brass and 40 new Hornady brass coming from Reloading International.

Not sure if I can get BELL brass here in NZ. Do any Kiwis know of a distributor / importer?

As mentioned earlier in the thread, my chambers seem really "sloppy". I am partial sizing the neck - about an inch and still the shoulder does not move forward. The neck portion of the chamber is really HUGE - Partial sizing gives me a mini bottle neck in the neck!

Naki from your description of your chambers and the fairly early incipient case head separation you are getting, it seems you are possibly in the realm of needing to fireform your new cases to the chamber before loading full house. Often you will read of fireforming with full house loads but I guess this is dependent on individual chambers but mostly fireforming is done with light loads of powder and some form of filler to give resistance and just enough pressure to blow the shoulder forward and forming the case to the chamber without stretching the case at the head. Or seat bullets to headspace the cartridge on the rifling.

Many neck up their cases and then just size the neck enough so the case headspaces on a false shoulder. You seem to be getting a false shoulder when you are firing your cartridges indicating a need to form this shoulder before first firing. This first firing is doing most to shorten your case life.
Sloppy chambers don't do much for accuracy either, perhaps your 470 was sold on for this reason, Cal will know better than most about these matters?

Naki,

BELL has been out of business for many years. The only way you'll find the brass is if someone has some to sell.

I'm interested to see how Hornady brass does for you. I have loaded it in a 450/400 3" and 3 1/4 with no issues.

I have never loaded Norma in a large nitro round but have heard of issues.

Nakihunter,

Congrats, you are making great progress. Like you and so many others, I started off with RL-15 and filler.
Eventually I ended up with H4831 (AR-2213 made by ADI I reckon).

I too worked up to 92.0 grains of RL-15 with F-215 primer in Norma brass, with filler, and 500-grain Woodleigh Weldcore RNSP.
That gave me instrumental (5-yard) velocity of 2083 fps in my 23.6"-barreled Merkel.
Barrels crossed and 4 shots went into about 2-inches (5 cm) at 50 meters. Ho hum.

Merkel claimed the rifle was regulated at 50 meters with Federal factory 470 NE ammo with Woodleigh RNSP and Trophy Bonded SH solid,
and that chronographed and shot very similarly in my rifle, as the 92.0-grain RL-15 handload above.

Federal loads were rumored to have used a hotter F-216 primer and less RL-15, about 87.0 grains, and no filler.
I dissected one of those, yep, about right on the hearsay.
Ho hum.

Enter H4831: 107 to 109 grains of H4831, SC or Long Cut, whichever grain length you prefer to use.
Adjust charge in 1 grain increments depending on bullet, soft or solid.
Might as well just start at 108.0 grains and go either way as needed.

I call it the George Hoffman memorial load.
George used a 470 NE double before developing the .416 Hoffman and helping to revive the .416 caliber rifles.
George Hoffman recommended H4831 for the 470 NE.
Back then there was no H4831 SC, just Long Cut, the original.

With the 109.0-grain charge of H4831 (Long Cut), F-215 primer, BELL brass, no filler, 500-grain TBSH solid, 76*F ambient temperature, 23.6" barrels,
5-yard velocity = 2138 fps average.
Correct that to MV and it will be just over 2150 fps.

Four shots went into 1 inch (2.5 cm) at 50 meters.
#1 (Right) and #4 (Left) went into the same hole.
The other two bullets did not cross, went a little high and low.



A shot from each barrel in the same hole at 50 meters is close enough for me to work with.
It shows that rifle and load combo wants to shoot, despite me!

The parallel-to-infinity regulation myth is like an angel dancing on the head of a pin.

Just get some H4831 (AR-2213) and put up with a little extra recoil:
The George Hoffman Memorial Load.

Rip ...

PS
My BELL brass came from a dead man's stock, sold by the widow.
I have no need for Hornady 470 NE brass, but that would be my choice if I started over.
The Norma and Federal brass I have used has shown no problems.
You must have set the shoulder back too many times on the Norma stuff.
Back that FL die out some, as others have suggested.
Size the once-fired new brass just enough to chamber with little resistance, for repeated reloads.
Use new brass, or once-fired and reloaded-once brass, on your safari.

Double rifles. Can't live with them, can't live without them.

Rip ...

Wow that is a nice shooting load RIP. I'd be slugging a few whiskeys back in celebration if achieving that with any two barrel big bore, to be truthful even a single barrel. That's minute of eyeball at that range

There you go Naki, something to aspire to.

Thanks RIP.

Sam recommend IMR 4831 as do a few others.

I am currently making up a very simple peep sight and sticking it on the rifle rib with double sided tape. Let me see if it stays on the rifle and if my shooting improves.

Nakihunter,

Many do recommend IMR-4831.
H4831 has better ThermoBallisticIndependence,
so your barrels don't cross and uncross or go higher or lower
with temperature changes.
Use 4 or 5 grains less of the IMR-4831 if you decide to try that.
I much prefer H4831 as recommended by George Hoffman for the 470 NE.

While I am memorializing, John Buhmiller recommended 105 grains of H4831
in the .416 Rigby with 400-grain bullets when Jack O'Connor needed some advice.
That is a bugholer.

Rip ...

This is what I have been doing for the last few days.






If this looks rough, there is a very good reason.

Hand made with hack saw, hand filing and and drilling. One hole done on drill press.

Base is aluminium shaped and filed for many many hours to fit the rib and clear the barrels. The rib is not really uniform parallel.

The actual peep is a piece of plastic with a hole. Probably a bit of Gluestick that was drilled years ago. I filed a flat surface on it. It has been screwed from under the base (countersunk).

The base is sitting on a piece of double sided tape (after cleaning with IP Alcohol). Black colour from Sharpie!

I am not sure how long this will last on the rifle. It might just fly off at the first shot.

Worst case scenario, I have a sample to give a machinist to make up. The real trick is to screw it to the rib with drilled & tapped holes. I cringe to do it.

Final sight picture is fine in the man cave. I'll check it outdoors tomorrow morning.

Let us see.

Double sided 3m tape is pretty strong so your peep sight should stay put. I can see why you are troubled with the existing iron sights, that front bead is way, way too small. The old timers all seemed to go for a decent sized bead or blade and sight it level with the top of the rear leaf. Most didn't seem to tuck the bead into the bottom of the V although I note you have a fine notch in the V bottom. Elmer Keith or Pondoro Taylor, or both, advocated not to tuck the bead into the bottom of the V as it does not come naturally to do so under pressure.

Perhaps a lightweight red dot sight will be the way to go for you ultimately. Might just have to grit your teeth and drill

Hopefully your peep sight will help.

Am I wrong in thinking that peep sight is a little too far to the right and that the bullets might also go that way?

To sharpen your picture of the bull much, you might need a slightly smaller aperture, even though it could be too small for hunting in poor light.

I took that photo alone, balancing the barrel in one hand and trying to align the peep, foresight etc. with mobile phone in the other hand.

Actual mounting of the rifle in shooting position sight picture is pretty spot on, probably a tad high, due to the masking tape under the base. That should make it shoot about 1 or 2 inches high at 50 meters.

We will know in the next few days if the weather hold out.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Am I wrong in thinking that peep sight is a little too far to the right and that the bullets might also go that way?

To sharpen your picture of the bull much, you might need a slightly smaller aperture, even though it could be too small for hunting in poor light.

Thanks Naki,
I guess you could shoot on the tangent-sight alignment at close range but centre on the peep at longer ranges.

I'm finding some indecision using the tang sight over top of the buckhorn on my 86 Winchester, though the peep does sharpen my view of the front sight and bull. I'm considering dropping the rear open sight right down into the elevator's thumb recess, then centring the bead in the big semi-circle of the buckhorn

I have made up a new one - a lot simpler. Just a piece of L angle Aluminium with a hole. Stuck on with double sided tape.





Definitely improved the sight picture for height.



This is what I shot over the weekend. I increased the left barrel solid load by 2 gr to 2115 fps but that has taken the group down 3 inches and crossing 2 inches to the right. I will go back to the 98gr load which was on the bull at 2070 fps.

The right barrel is 3 shots Woodleigh softs and 3 shots Hornady Bonded DGX softs.

Now I need to get the powder coated bullets out of Customs people and try the 340 gr cast practice bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Thanks Naki,
I guess you could shoot on the tangent-sight alignment at close range but centre on the peep at longer ranges.

I'm finding some indecision using the tang sight over top of the buckhorn on my 86 Winchester, though the peep does sharpen my view of the front sight and bull. I'm considering dropping the rear open sight right down into the elevator's thumb recess, then centring the bead in the big semi-circle of the buckhorn

In case it hasn't been noted before, those are interesting lumps. I thought only Chapuis did stuff like that.

I am sure it is mono-blocked. The hooks are in 3 columns and increase the bearing surface. They probably also reduce weight between hands.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
In case it hasn't been noted before, those are interesting lumps. I thought only Chapuis did stuff like that.

Hi Naki, great read

SHE is shooting pretty well now. I was wondering how the sights are at this point? Did you decide on a style and make a permanent set? Let us know how things are going. Be Well. Packy

Packy

I made up a simple aluminium peep and stuck it on the rib with double sided tape. Not perfect or ideal. One day I might put a ghost ring sight on.



The regulation load is also just adequate - 100 gr of AR2209 (H4350) with backing foam rod and 500 gr Woodleighs or Hornadys. N150 of same load also gives similar results in velocity and regulation. I am going to try Re15 again and go up to 92 gr like some others here have done.

I just spoke to a new friend yesterday and hope to hunt Australia one day.

quote:

Originally posted by packrattusnongratus:
SHE is shooting pretty well now. I was wondering how the sights are at this point? Did you decide on a style and make a permanent set? Let us know how things are going. Be Well. Packy

Buy it then turn around and sell it..Don't bid on something you can't pay for...You can refuse to buy it at this point, but you will be kicked off the blog..and described as not a man of your word..a loser of the highest degree..

The decision, in effect, is totally up to you and you alone..

I don't get you Ray

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Buy it then turn around and sell it..Don't bid on something you can't pay for...You can refuse to buy it at this point, but you will be kicked off the blog..and described as not a man of your word..a loser of the highest degree..

The decision, in effect, is totally up to you and you alone..

Ray is still back on page 1 post 1, few pages to go to catch up with the rest of us

Anyway how is your cast loading going Naki for the big boomer?
Would be good if you can get to Oz on buffalo with your 470, a cull hunt would be pretty awesome action for a double user.

Don’t know why I have not added to this thread earlier.....
Have for years used this bullet from NEI of El Paso, Texas, USA in my Rigby .470
Cast of either Lyman #2 or Linotype and lubed with LBT Blue.
Load is 76 grains of IMR4064, packed with Dacron, with a milk carton card at the base of the bullet as a primitive gas check.
1950’/sec & sub 3” right/left at 60 yards with little or no leading.
- Mike

LOL I figured that.

The cast load is with 400 gr Powder coated bullet. No mess and very easy. I have been trying ADI 2208 (Varget) but regulation is not good.

I have not been shooting it for a while.

I got introduced to a new contact who has promised a local rate buffalo hunt. It would be great to shoot a buffalo and a scrub bull.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Ray is still back on page 1 post 1, few pages to go to catch up with the rest of us

Anyway how is your cast loading going Naki for the big boomer?
Would be good if you can get to Oz on buffalo with your 470, a cull hunt would be pretty awesome action for a double user.

At Independence Ranch in Texas there was a water buffalo. The story goes a bull Elk tried him and lost the battle, so did a pickup truck. Saw the truck later. It was destroyed. A hunt with the double would be fun and good practice. Be Well. Packy

Thanks Packy

quote:

Originally posted by packrattusnongratus:
At Independence Ranch in Texas there was a water buffalo. The story goes a bull Elk tried him and lost the battle, so did a pickup truck. Saw the truck later. It was destroyed. A hunt with the double would be fun and good practice. Be Well. Packy