Naki, you need a mould for the bullet style and weight you want and then if you are going to cast yourself, you need a few things a couple of which are currently for sale on TradeMe.

A lube/sizer with suitable top punch and sizing die, this one is good, have and use a Lyman 450 myself. This sizes, lubes and seats/crimps gas checks https://www.trademe.co.nz/spor...4c8281a0cf602e1d7d77

Sizing die and punch, probably available for the 470 bullet but could purchase a smaller one e.g. 44 cal and have opened out to suit your bore size.
https://www.trademe.co.nz/spor...458c9679df5034a76598


A small cast melting pot and ladle or an electric melting pot which will drop the molten lead alloy directly into the mould - sometimes come up on Trademe but not expensive to buy new (see Reloader Supplies up your way).

The Lyman cast bullet handbook explains everything, a must have if you want to get into cast bullet shooting and shows everything you need and how to use them.
https://www.trademe.co.nz/spor...458f90e5254db5c1d98d

Then you need some lead alloy, can buy on TradeMe sometimes and there is a company up Auckland way that produce Lyman #2 mix for sale sometimes.

I don't believe cast is going to give you pressure problems unless shooting way over bore size and hard cast. Lyman #2 or similar mix is not a hard alloy and best to shoot at bore size or at most 0.001" over to get best results. The small charges of pistol or shotgun powder e.g. Red Dot/Vectan AS or Unique are low pressure loads giving velocities ideal for target or some of our game at the sort of range you would use the double for. Lighter charges of some of the rifle powders will get you up around factory velocity with cast bullets.

You could go down to 400gr for your 470 but you can't cast heavier once you have a mould made for 400gr. If you had a mould made for 500gr you could conceivably make lighter bullets from the heavier cast ones by hollow pointing or cutting down the nose in a small lathe. Nose profile doesn't matter for a double rifle as you don't have to get the loaded rounds to feed from a magazine.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Thanks Bill.

I am new to casting and would like to know what minimum set up I need.

Photos would help.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Naki,
I shot a lot of cast through my first 470,it was a merkel,nice thick barrels,Micheal458 did a lot of research on bullets & pressures,cast bullets were way up there for pressure,possibly because of being slightly oversized,I do not use cast anymore for that reason,although my Merkel showed no ill effects & I killed a lot of pigs using the cast performance 400'ish gr bullets.

I never cast my own,I bought them already cast from Cast performance,I used the 475/425 gr bullets,I shot them with full house loads,about 2200 fps if I recall correctly,they were murder on pigs,I have also used Speer pistol bullets,gold dots,cheap & another alternative,just make sure you clean the gun well,the Speers worked great but are not constructed for the higher velocity,after a lot of rounds?I had copper deposits just in front of the chamber,I did use the Speers on warthogs,they worked great.

Naki
Saw single box of 50 x 470 500gr Hornady DGS at Serious Shooters in Akl over the weekend.
Keewe

Thanks for the update guys. Much appreciated.

I'll probably get that Lyman book first.

No hurry. One step at a time and enjoy the learning process.

I remember my 416 Rigby project 5 years ago & that was fun but step by step.

It was made in 2006. VC have informed me that all their current models are ejectors and that my rifle can be converted if I wanted to.

I am leaving it alone.

The import permit is ready & I have collected it just now.

The Lee moulds arrived today. The Trim pilot & shell holder arrived yesterday. I am awaiting the dies which are passing through customs. Also awaiting DGX and Woodleigh softs.

I have updated some photos on the first post

Ashok

Now you need to buy a hunt from me . Doubles are meant to be shot not looked at like pretty girls

Arjun Reddy

Rifle is now with Emirates awaiting Dubai transit permit.

Airway bill in hand. Waiting for flight booking details so I can clear customs ahead of arrival and speed up courier transfer to my provincial location.

I melted a bunch of wheel weights today and made yummy muffins!

I will be casting 400 gr bullets tomorrow.

Pace yourself Naki........you don't want to peak to early !!!!

Thanks mate. You are so right.

Just spoke to customs and they said something similar. "You won't be able to get the clearance while you wait at the counter"!. "It will have to be inspected in Auckland before it is released". "We cannot do the work until the gun is on the aircraft"

LOL!

quote:

Originally posted by twobobbwana:
Pace yourself Naki........you don't want to peak to early !!!!

Accidental gun purchases happen more then one would imagine.

It's reassuring to hear others have fallen victim. One must be careful, accidents happen.

Naki, it sounds like you are almost ready to shoot your new gun baby. It sounds and looks like a sweet gun. I still think it would be a great boar rifle. You might have to include some salt in your loads, to keep the meat from spoiling. Because that 470 is going to roll that boar to the next country!

I have the "gun baby" in my arms! . 5+ hours driving to the clearing agents.

Confusion between agent, freight forwarder etc. All resolved at 6 pm after official closing time of the freight forwarder at the airport.

Came home to my cousin's place. My son and I opened the package. I am thrilled to say that there was no trophy shrink, though the rifle looks and feels smaller and lighter. The balance and fit are just amazing.

I hope it shoots as well or should I say that I hope I shoot it as well.

Great news.

Have fun.

NZ Winter and rain. Itching to take the 470 to my mate's farm and shoot it.

I am thrilled with how well it handles - fits me well and points to target so easily. My friend Grant handled it and he was surprised that it weighed more than the CZ 416 Rigby. That CZ just did not fit Grant at all and he shot it on 5 or 6 occasions and every time the scope cut his eyebrow. After the 3rd time he started wearing a cap to protect his skin!

I have loaded up the following

Re15 - LR X2 each = 2 DGS solids & 2 Woodleigh Softs - decided to avoid foam backing rod filler
N560 - LR X2 each = 2 DGS solids & 2 Woodleigh Softs - Should be similar to R22 - still a bit of air space in case.
400 gr Lead cast X 2 - hand lubed with Orange magic. Re 15 & Felt wad lubed and card on each end.

I also tried powder coating some bullets but I am awaiting the bullet sizing and expander dies before I can load those.

From most data including Graeme Wright's book, The Solids tends to use 2 gr less powder for regulation and similar velocity.

400 gr Hornady Pistol bullets on their way.

My advice is to use filler as it helps reduce powder by up to 10grn and felt recoil

Thanks Adam. I am sending you a PM.

From my experience with the 416 Rigby, I know that I shoot much better when recoil is less. Re15 uses 20 gr less than the IMR 4831 load.

I was planning to use foam backer rod. There seems to be a lot of concern about chamber ringing.

A former Ruger employee (Harris) on the Cast Boolits forum has seen many Ruger No1 45/70 chambers with rings caused by using very fast powders and NO filler! They did trials and were able to duplicate ringing of chambers.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
My advice is to use filler as it helps reduce powder by up to 10grn and felt recoil

I’m a proponent of no filler and, just find a load that can fill the case, as per the DuPont 4831.
But yes the trade off is more recoil.......
Maybe try AR 2209; it works great in my 500.

Nick

Shot the rifle today 10 shots. Very happy with the balance and handling. It was a lot easier to shoot than I expected.

Velocity was very low with the 2 loads - Re15 - 87gr gave only 1900 fps & N560 105 gr gave 1700 fps with a much heavier recoil, muzzle blast and flame spouting from the barrel. No fillers used.

Off hand at 25 meters.

I am now going to try using foam backer rod filler and also try H4350 (AR2209). 400 gr pistol bullets should also arrive soon with the case expander die.

Next time I will use sticks and get the height of the chrony up by 8 inches.

I haven't had anything to do with developing loads for doubles but I would concentrate on just firing one barrel to work up powder/bullet/primer/filler combinations that give accuracy and velocity/pressure performance without the variability of regulation or lack of it coming from firing the two separate barrels i.e. treat the double as two single shot rifles.

Once a load proves to be suitable in one barrel then check same load in the other. Once a database of good accurate loads is built up only then would I be bothering to check for regulation.

Looking at your target, how do you know from shooting left/rights whether the grouping is affected by regulation or bullet/powder/primer/filler combinations?

Especially so for developing cast loads where often there will be a sweet spot for particular combinations of components. Bring the variability of regulation in once you have proven accurate loads.

My thoughts today and wishing you many fine and enjoyable days on the range then get out and put some meat on the table with your big boomer

Not sure I agree with that outlook. The load should not be worked up like a bolt action because of pressure issues - getting the barrels to shoot together is the whole game, not an afterthought.

You have a copy of Graeme Wright's book. Start by reading that.

Eagle27
I worked on three VC 470s and the shoot real well with any standard load between 2000fps and 2200 So it's not a big issue

I have first and 3rd editions of Graeme Wrights book. I have been reading it for the 4th or 5th time after a couple of years - last 4 weeks since I won the rifle auction.

I started with these 10 rounds - 2 loads - soft & solid plus cast.

I learned that N560 is not going to work - low velocity, heavy recoil, muzzle blast and a real flame thrower. I probably need to use 120 gr of powder!

Ozhunter's suggestion of filler foam rod is my next step - with Re15 and AR2209 (H4350). So many people get regulation and correct velocity, accuracy with those loads, that I doubt i would have to reinvent the wheel.

These shots were off hand. Also a bit crouched as the first 3 shots did not register on the Chrony.

Next time I will use sticks and get the chrony 8" higher up.

The cast bullets are definitely tricky. The target shows one pulled out of the paper at 8 o'clock and one at 10 o'clock. Closer inspection shows a 11th "shot" that I did not fire, at 4 o'clock. This is smudged and did not penetrated the card behind the target! I would guess that was the wad with the second shot which is not on paper.

Obviously the lube did leak ahead of the card and stick to the base of the bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

The cast bullets are definitely tricky. The target shows one pulled out of the paper at 8 o'clock and one at 10 o'clock. Closer inspection shows a 11th "shot" that I did not fire, at 4 o'clock. This is smudged and did not penetrated the card behind the target! I would guess that was the wad with the second shot which is not on paper.

Obviously the lube did leak ahead of the card and stick to the base of the bullet.

Have you cast any from your gas check mould yet, maybe time to do that and see if you can hit on a good load. If gas checks prove a winner, not all lost with your plain base, just a little trick to try as I do with my 404 plain base cast bullets that won't hit a barn door at 25m

Congratulations on getting a double rifle,Nakihunter!
I am sure you will enjoy shooting and hunting with it.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
"...... I haven't had anything to do with developing loads for doubles but I would concentrate on just firing one barrel to work up powder/bullet/primer/filler combinations that give accuracy and velocity/pressure performance without the variability of regulation or lack of it coming from firing the two separate barrels i.e. treat the double as two single shot rifles. ......"

Hello Nakihunter,

Working up a load for a double rifle is NOT anything like that of a single barrel gun. Your rifle will likely regulate with Factory ammo. Its expensive, but well worth buying ONE box to confirm this. .... be sure to chronograph it .... and then its a matter of duplicating the bullet weight, velocity, and burn-rate of the powder of the factory ammo. And YES, use backing rod to fill the space from the top of the powder to the base of the bullet plus about 1/8" of compression. I use 1/2" backing rod in my 470NE loads. Its a little oversized but you can easily twist it through the neck. I've had good regulation in the 1950 fps - 2100 fps range with 500g bullets using powders; IMR4350, H4350, IMR4831, H4831, and F215 primers. I also shoot a 75% velocity "practice load" using AA5744 with good regulation results.

Also, its been my experience that cast lead bullets give HIGHER pressures than jacketed bullets because the lead bullet obturates to full groove diameter with 0% blow-by. In addition, although less expensive than jacketed bullets, I've never been satisfied with the results using lead bullets.

And by-the-way, that is one fine looking rifle you have.

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
"...... I haven't had anything to do with developing loads for doubles but I would concentrate on just firing one barrel to work up powder/bullet/primer/filler combinations that give accuracy and velocity/pressure performance without the variability of regulation or lack of it coming from firing the two separate barrels i.e. treat the double as two single shot rifles. ......"

Hello Nakihunter,

Working up a load for a double rifle is NOT anything like that of a single barrel gun. Your rifle will likely regulate with Factory ammo. Its expensive, but well worth buying ONE box to confirm this. .... be sure to chronograph it .... and then its a matter of duplicating the bullet weight, velocity, and burn-rate of the powder of the factory ammo. And YES, use backing rod to fill the space from the top of the powder to the base of the bullet plus about 1/8" of compression. I use 1/2" backing rod in my 470NE loads. Its a little oversized but you can easily twist it through the neck. I've had good regulation in the 1950 fps - 2100 fps range with 500g bullets using powders; IMR4350, H4350, IMR4831, H4831, and F215 primers. I also shoot a 75% velocity "practice load" using AA5744 with good regulation results.

Also, its been my experience that cast lead bullets give HIGHER pressures than jacketed bullets because the lead bullet obturates to full groove diameter with 0% blow-by. In addition, although less expensive than jacketed bullets, I've never been satisfied with the results using lead bullets.

And by-the-way, that is one fine looking rifle you have.

I wouldn't read what I wrote too literally but if one or other or both barrels of a double will not produce good groups in their own right with any particular combination of components then there is fat chance that the double will show any sort of regulation.
Elmer Keith himself when writing about loading for the British doubles spoke that it maybe necessary to use different charges of powder with the same bullet in individual barrels of a double, but then what did he know about reloading

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I have first and 3rd editions of Graeme Wrights book. I have been reading it for the 4th or 5th time after a couple of years -

Hello Nakihunter

You are off to a very good start with Graeme's books. There are decades of experience therein. I've had very good success developing loads for my 19 different double rifles by following his guidance.

.

...... and ...........................YES....

.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
"...... I haven't had anything to do with developing loads for doubles

.

No I have returned the gas check 350 gr mold.

Since I am now powder coating the 400 gr bullets, gas check should not be an issue. I am also getting help from people on the Cast Boolits forum. Those guys say that PC bullets shoot like GC bullets!

I think I am now covered for what I want to achieve. Fingers crossed.

I got the rifle and it fits and shoots well for me. That is the BIG blessing. I have the dies, cases, the projectiles I needs, casting, lead, powder coating and some powder. I am just waiting for the case expander & bullet sizing dies and 400 gr pistol bullets.

I will now try foam backer rod filler and Re15 and AR2209 (H4350). If I fail to get the desired regulation and accuracy, then I will try IMR4831.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

Elmer Keith himself when writing about loading for the British doubles spoke that it maybe necessary to use different charges of powder with the same bullet in individual barrels of a double, but then what did he know about reloading

If Elmer actually said that concerning double rifles, it kills any credibility I had in his writings.

In other words, THAT'S TOTAL BULLSHIT!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

Elmer Keith himself when writing about loading for the British doubles spoke that it maybe necessary to use different charges of powder with the same bullet in individual barrels of a double, but then what did he know about reloading

If Elmer actually said that concerning double rifles, it kills any credibility I had in his writings.

In other words, THAT'S TOTAL BULLSHIT!

Here Here ...! ! !

.

Keep in mind ............

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
"...... I haven't had anything to do with developing loads for doubles

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

Elmer Keith himself when writing about loading for the British doubles spoke that it maybe necessary to use different charges of powder with the same bullet in individual barrels of a double, but then what did he know about reloading

If Elmer actually said that concerning double rifles, it kills any credibility I had in his writings.

In other words, THAT'S TOTAL BULLSHIT!

Sorry to burst your bubbles Todd and Buckstix but he did. Enjoy.
PS the writings above Elmer's picture is Jack O'Connor's just happened to be on same page in RCBS booklet.



Now I would be the first to to admit that it would be quite impractical although not entirely end of the world to have different cartridges loaded for your double if that was going to make it into a good shooter. Mindful that not all doubles are used for dangerous game. Elmer may have had longer range shooting with doubles on non-dangerous game in mind where he wanted better accuracy from both barrels, who knows but there it is in writing.

Elmer's outlook may not be ideal but I think I could work with it; write the barrel on each cartridge, keep them in separate loop locations and make sure you start out with the right one in each chamber.

After all, the first shot or two are usually the most important. If any rapid reloading is needed, things have started to unravel, anyway - and if the critter is charging, it may be so close regulation starts to lose importance.

Too hard? Well, IIRC Burrard or someone of his vintage mentioned double-barrels distending cartridge heads because regulated barrels are unlikely to be at right-angles to the standing breech. I think the thrust of the comment was that if you reload such cases, next time you should not only put them in the same barrel, but have them facing the same way!

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Elmer Keith himself when writing about loading for the British doubles spoke that it maybe necessary to use different charges of powder with the same bullet in individual barrels of a double, but then what did he know about reloading

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
"...... I haven't had anything to do with developing loads for doubles

.

Hello eagle27,

Just out of curiosity, do you even own a double rifle?

.

Sorry to burst your bubble Eagle but that statement by Elmer shows a complete lack of understanding of how a double rifle is designed to operate.

One barrel may indeed be more accurate than the other. And in fact, a different load for each barrel may indeed improve each independent barrel's accuracy. But that's NOT the way a double rifle is intended to work.

Regardless of each individual barrel's accuracy in a stand alone test, a double rifle is intended to place TWO shots within an acceptable distance OF EACH OTHER. That acceptable distance being an acceptable level of accuracy for hunting purposes. That is achieved through the regulation process. That regulation load may or may not be, and probably isn't, the most accurate load for each independent barrel.

Again, sorry but Elmer's statement is full of shit. And he should have known better.

You made a good investment..and then of course you could always sell the wife...

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Sorry to burst your bubble Eagle but that statement by Elmer shows a complete lack of understanding of how a double rifle is designed to operate.

One barrel may indeed be more accurate than the other. And in fact, a different load for each barrel may indeed improve each independent barrel's accuracy. But that's NOT the way a double rifle is intended to work.

Regardless of each individual barrel's accuracy in a stand alone test, a double rifle is intended to place TWO shots within an acceptable distance OF EACH OTHER. That acceptable distance being an acceptable level of accuracy for hunting purposes. That is achieved through the regulation process. That regulation load may or may not be, and probably isn't, the most accurate load for each independent barrel.

Again, sorry but Elmer's statement is full of shit. And he should have known better.

……………………..What Todd said!

In many vintage double rifle will print a wider group with the right barrel than the left. This is because under hunting conditions the right barrel digests far more rounds than the left barrel over many years. This is because most shots from the right barrel finishes the hunt, and so gets more ware than the left barrel.

As Todd says the key to a good composite group with a double rifle is having the center of each barrel's individual group within an acceptable distance away from the center of the other barrel's group!

An acceptable "one, two" tap group is the most important thing with a double rifle!

……………………………………………………………...

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Sorry to burst your bubble Eagle but that statement by Elmer shows a complete lack of understanding of how a double rifle is designed to operate.

One barrel may indeed be more accurate than the other. And in fact, a different load for each barrel may indeed improve each independent barrel's accuracy. But that's NOT the way a double rifle is intended to work.

Regardless of each individual barrel's accuracy in a stand alone test, a double rifle is intended to place TWO shots within an acceptable distance OF EACH OTHER. That acceptable distance being an acceptable level of accuracy for hunting purposes. That is achieved through the regulation process. That regulation load may or may not be, and probably isn't, the most accurate load for each independent barrel.

Again, sorry but Elmer's statement is full of shit. And he should have known better.

I don't have a bubble to burst as far as Elmer goes, just noting what he said about double rifles which is only one of the many comments he would have made throughout his life involving all things firearms and hunting. It is something that he probably played around with as he did with many things, e.g. duplex charges etc. I don't know why you took so much umbrage over it. Had he been alive you could have called him on it and that would have been a good conversation to be a fly on the wall to

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Sorry to burst your bubble Eagle but that statement by Elmer shows a complete lack of understanding of how a double rifle is designed to operate.

One barrel may indeed be more accurate than the other. And in fact, a different load for each barrel may indeed improve each independent barrel's accuracy. But that's NOT the way a double rifle is intended to work.

Regardless of each individual barrel's accuracy in a stand alone test, a double rifle is intended to place TWO shots within an acceptable distance OF EACH OTHER. That acceptable distance being an acceptable level of accuracy for hunting purposes. That is achieved through the regulation process. That regulation load may or may not be, and probably isn't, the most accurate load for each independent barrel.

Again, sorry but Elmer's statement is full of shit. And he should have known better.

……………………..What Todd said!

In many vintage double rifle will print a wider group with the right barrel than the left. This is because under hunting conditions the right barrel digests far more rounds than the left barrel over many years. This is because most shots from the right barrel finishes the hunt, and so gets more ware than the left barrel.

As Todd says the key to a good composite group with a double rifle is having the center of each barrel's individual group within an acceptable distance away from the center of the other barrel's group!

An acceptable "one, two" tap group is the most important thing with a double rifle!

……………………………………………………………...

Not arguing with that at all, see my reply to Todd re Elmer. Not pushing his point just noting it, Elmer experimented with a lot of things some good some bad I guess.
My only point with Naki's trials and tribulations especially if using "non-standard" pistol bullets and cast bullets is that using one barrel to check for good grouping to me is good reloading practice and then worry about trying to achieve regulation after that. Not much point is fussing over regulation when your load is not grouping satisfactorily for starters.

I take Ozhunter's point also where he says he has had 3 VC 470s and they have all shot satisfactorily with standard loads so obviously if Naki was just working up loads with standard bullets and usual powders all would be good. The difference being here is that Naki is not playing around with standard loads. He is in unknown territory (to him) with pistol and cast bullets. Others for sure will have used them but it all comes down to what will work in his particular gun with the particular components he is using.

I have probably have done myself no favours in stating I haven't had anything to do with developing loads for doubles. That is true in some respects in that I have not owned a double myself but in thinking back I have been involved in loading (and shooting) several doubles belonging to two of my German friends, casting bullets and sizing down pistol bullets to fit old doubles where factory ammo or bullets are no longer available. We always loaded and shot in one barrel until we obtain a good grouping load before playing with regulation. Seemed to work okay for us.
I have certainly gained a lot of experience over 50 years or so loading for myself and under licence on a commercial basis for others but don't claim to know everything and always learn something new from forums such as AR.

Not arguing at all how others develop loads for themselves but often there are more ways to skin a cat that work.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
".....I have probably have done myself no favours in stating I haven't had anything to do with developing loads for doubles. That is true in some respects in that I have not owned a double myself ....."