quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No. 2:
I do not think thet the bursting of double rifle barrels has ANYTHING to do with what powder to use.

I'd like to believe that, but I don't believe it for a nanosecond.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Now as to 400 Nitro Express's grumpiness, that is his comedy schtick, we are supposed to be amused by it. He is a reverse Rodney Dangerfield. It is well worth the pearls he spreads before us swine.

Hell, RIP, I'm touched. I didn't know you cared.

Honestly though, I'm not grumpy at all. I guess maybe it's just the way I write. I'm probably just used to responding matter of factly when reduced to writing. I can't see it at all, though.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Thank you for the response. I appreciate your answers.

I guess "grumpiness" depends on which side of the fence you're looking at. You are not alone re: grumpy at times. I plead nolo contendre.

DuaneB

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:

quote:

If Cordite is so great, why does Kynoch not just bring it back?

As I recall, cordite was kind of a "twitchy" powder. Not as efficient, or safe, as modern powders.

Interestingly, cordite was made up until fairly recently. It's death knell came when the US retired the last of the great old WWII battleships. The big guns on the battleships used cordite for their powder charges.

That's pretty close, Jim. It was partially the retirement of the battleships, but not the US Navy's. Ours used stick powders, not Cordite. It was the British.

And he is correct as usual. Off topic, but I thought this article from 1920 was interesting:


http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=...6195D6CF&oref=slogin

The British 18 inch guns that used cordite weighed 149 tons. The projectile was a svelt 3333 pounds, and it took 630 pounds of cordite to get the required velocity.

I believe I actually saw Tony shoot a coyote with one of those once. I do not recall if he used a filler.

400 Nitro Express is not grumpy. That's just the way he expresses affection. Kind of like a porcupine hug.

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Now as to 400 Nitro Express's grumpiness, that is his comedy schtick, we are supposed to be amused by it. He is a reverse Rodney Dangerfield. It is well worth the pearls he spreads before us swine.

Hell, RIP, I'm touched. I didn't know you cared.

Honestly though, I'm not grumpy at all. I guess maybe it's just the way I write. I'm probably just used to responding matter of factly when reduced to writing. I can't see it at all, though.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Well, that's one.

Ahhhh, I feel all warm and fuzzy!

Group hug????

You guys are the best! I love this forum!

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Off topic, but I thought this article from 1920 was interesting:


http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=...6195D6CF&oref=slogin

The British 18 inch guns that used cordite weighed 149 tons. The projectile was a svelt 3333 pounds, and it took 630 pounds of cordite to get the required velocity.

The ultimate big bore. A 3320 lb shell at 2200 fps and a range of 21 miles.

Single 1900 lb 16" 50 caliber hi-caps from the New Jersey were used to create helo LZs 200 yards in diameter from triple canopy jungle in Vietnam. The 16" hi-cap carried 154 lbs of Explosive D. The British 18" 40 caliber hi-caps were 3320 lbs and carried 243 lbs of Lyddite, a more powerful explosive than Explosive D. I can only imagine...
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Off topic, but I thought this article from 1920 was interesting:


http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=...6195D6CF&oref=slogin

The British 18 inch guns that used cordite weighed 149 tons. The projectile was a svelt 3333 pounds, and it took 630 pounds of cordite to get the required velocity.

The ultimate big bore. A 3320 lb shell at 2200 fps and a range of 21 miles.

Single 1900 lb 16" 50 caliber hi-caps from the New Jersey were used to create helo LZs 200 yards in diameter from triple canopy jungle in Vietnam. The 16" hi-cap carried 154 lbs of Explosive D. The British 18" 40 caliber hi-caps were 3320 lbs and carried 243 lbs of Lyddite, a more powerful explosive than Explosive D. I can only imagine...
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

The Brits never mounted anything bigger than a 16" such as used on the Rodney and the Nelson.
The Rodney had the honor of doing much of the hard work to knock out the Bismarck.
AFAIK the 18.1" guns of the Japanese Yamato class were the largest ever put to sea.

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
The Brits never mounted anything bigger than a 16" such as used on the Rodney and the Nelson.

Not true.

Armstrong's built three 18"/40s, intended for the large cruiser HMS Furious. One gun was mounted for trials, but it was found that the ship couldn't withstand the overpressure, so Furious was converted to an aircraft carrier.

The three 18" guns were then diverted to the Lord Clive class monitors. HMS General Wolfe and HMS Lord Clive both deployed with 18" and both saw action in 1918. HMS Prince Eugene got the third 18", but wasn't completed in time for the war.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I used to think Mark was a Crank too but now we can read between the lines.

I've shot quite a few reduced loads in various calibers and always used Kapok fiber for the normal reasons. I don't have any expereince with the foam wads but i don't see how they could cause that high of pressure.

The only gun I've manage to damage was a S&W Mdl. 28 many years ago using Green Dot powder. Green Dot - or at least the lot I had -was very erratic pressure wise in pistols even though both Red Dot and Blue Dot- two similar powders with faster and slower buning rates work fine for pistols. Perhaps the powder is the culprit and has some strange behavior like the Red Dot I had.

I have read this thread and found it quite interesting. I read up on this phenomena back when I was starting to reload as I was using a filler over the powder in my old 45-70 trapdoor and was afraid of damaging it. Charlie Dell’s work was helpful in understanding the problem. A problem I didn’t know existed until a friend cautioned me about it.
I think the problem is caused by the pressure front caused by the rapidly expanding gasses of the burning powder. With a over powder wad this becomes a part of the pressure wave hitting the back of the seated bullet resulting in the barrel obstruction syndrome. This is why filling ALL THE SPACE is important. This retards the pressure wave enough that you don’t have a problem. Uniform ignition is just a happy by product of doing this.
“Federal factory 470 ammo sometimes has large variation in velocity due to the position of powder in the case when the trigger is pulled.â€
I wonder what would happen if you pulled some of these and used a foam filler as Kynoch does and see if it helps.
Bill

It will be interesting to see how Hornady handles this when their new 470 ammo hits the market.

Or maybe our self-proclaimed expert here knows the answer already.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
It will be interesting to see how Hornady handles this when their new 470 ammo hits the market.

Or maybe our self-proclaimed expert here knows the answer already.

Me too.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
It will be interesting to see how Hornady handles this when their new 470 ammo hits the market.

Or maybe our self-proclaimed expert here knows the answer already.

Will do you know wheter or not if Hornady is using a filler in their 450-400 ammo?....I don't own one yet but when they become avalable here in Canadian I'll have a Ruger #1 in this cal...
thxs.

I shook a 450/400 Hornady factory round with the DGS bullet. I can hear the powder shaking inside. So apparently no filler.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:
I have read this thread and found it quite interesting. I read up on this phenomena back when I was starting to reload as I was using a filler over the powder in my old 45-70 trapdoor and was afraid of damaging it. Charlie Dell’s work was helpful in understanding the problem. A problem I didn’t know existed until a friend cautioned me about it.
I think the problem is caused by the pressure front caused by the rapidly expanding gasses of the burning powder. With a over powder wad this becomes a part of the pressure wave hitting the back of the seated bullet resulting in the barrel obstruction syndrome. This is why filling ALL THE SPACE is important. This retards the pressure wave enough that you don’t have a problem. Uniform ignition is just a happy by product of doing this.
“Federal factory 470 ammo sometimes has large variation in velocity due to the position of powder in the case when the trigger is pulled.â€
I wonder what would happen if you pulled some of these and used a foam filler as Kynoch does and see if it helps.
Bill

I agree Bill, and here is a post I posted on NitroExpress, on the same thread there!

quote:

:by 93X57
Part of the trouble with fillers is that as a position sensitive, inert material inside the case, ammunition handling can cause shifting of the filler, comingling with powder, etc. This is probably no threat to a well-assembled load that is very carefully handled and fired on the range, but over time and general use may present problems for hunting ammunition.

The real question might be why use them in the first place? Skilled handloading precludes their need under almost, probably all, circumstances.

93X, If filler is properly used, no co-mingleing will occur, regardless of the type of filler used! The shifting of filler needs a place for the filler to shift to. A properly loaded NE round with filler, will not shift under any cercumstances.

The granulated fillers like shot buffers, are the worse offender to shifting, because the bullets are not seated down on top of the filler tight enough. No airspace should be allowed in a case when any type of filler is used, this is why it is called "FILLER"! Once the charge is dumped into the case the filler has to be enough to fill the case enough so that when the bullet is seated, the filler is slightly compressed. Most of the ringed chambers are caused by useing filler like Creame of wheat, which should NEVER be used as filler. People got the idea of useing C.O.W. from old books where it was used for fire-forming wildcat cases. This was done without a bullet in the case. The case was loaded with a small amount of a fast burning powder, on the primer, then the case filled with C.O.W., no bullet, and with the rifle held barrel pointed at the sky, fired. This fire-formed case very well, but would have been disasterous if a bullet had been seated as well. The other ringing is caused by idiots loading very light loads in a large case, and seating a wad down on top of the powder, then seating a bullet, leaving a large amount of airspace between the wad, and the bullet. When this is fired, with the wad seated that way, the wad becomes the projectile, and a short distance away the bullet becomes a secondary projectile, obstruction, much the same as another bullet in the barrels, ahead of the one being fired.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with useing filler to work up loads to the regulation of a double rifle, new or old, if done properly! Nothing is completely IDIOT PROOF, but where fillers are concerned it seems they gather like a flock of black birds!

400 Nitro Express

I am constantly amazed at the knowledge you have.

You are though, so full of yourself as to be nauseating. You are rude, obnoxious and probably about half stewed during most of your posts.

You owe everyone here an apology that I doubt if you are man enough to give.

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:
400 Nitro Express

I am constantly amazed at the knowledge you have.

You are though, so full of yourself as to be nauseating. You are rude, obnoxious and probably about half stewed during most of your posts.

You owe everyone here an apology that I doubt if you are man enough to give.

Gator

Why, because he is right 99% of the time and corrects some of the Bullshit promulgated
on forums to do with DR's and Big Bores ?

I think having someone who posts long, well written answers with the correct info, both here and elsewhere - and often the same info to the same question more than once should be appreciated.

I know a few who have given up answering the same question for the 10th time.

I think ? Atkinson ? suffered from the same thing.

"Tall Poppy Syndrome"


Edited - Oh, and if you think I'm a "yes" man, forget it,
I have had my disagreements with 400 in the past.

quote:

You owe everyone here an apology

Well, I'm here and part of "everyone" and I don't think he owes me an apology.

Do you just like shitting in people's pools?

quote:

Well, I'm here and part of "everyone" and I don't think he owes me an apology.

Ditto!

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:
400 Nitro Express

You are though, so full of yourself as to be nauseating. You are rude, obnoxious and probably about half stewed during most of your posts.

You owe everyone here an apology that I doubt if you are man enough to give.

You don't know me from Adam, and you missed me by a mile.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

It's hell to be right! Some folks simply can't stand the fact there are people who have knowledge that they don't,knowledge that debunks the info they spew!

400Nitro is a British double rifle book on the hoof! The cost is simply the time spent reading his posts!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
It's hell to be right! Some folks simply can't stand the fact there are people who have knowledge that they don't,knowledge that debunks the info they spew!

400Nitro is a British double rifle book on the hoof! The cost is simply the time spent reading his posts!

It's not what he knows, which is a lot. It's how he imparts his knowledge.

Seems like 400Nitro has a God Complex going.

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
It's hell to be right! Some folks simply can't stand the fact there are people who have knowledge that they don't,knowledge that debunks the info they spew!

400Nitro is a British double rifle book on the hoof! The cost is simply the time spent reading his posts!

It's not what he knows, which is a lot. It's how he imparts his knowledge.

Seems like 400Nitro has a God Complex going.

I disagree.

I think if anything he gets frustrated by the fact that people argue the FACTS that are written down in B&W as gospel and they still argue the point they posted, even though it has proved to be wrong.

In any case, if he does have a God complex, for a non believer like me,
I welcome having God on here

quote:

In any case, if he does have a God complex, for a non believer like me,
I welcome having God on here

Good one, Nigel!

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:

It's not what he knows, which is a lot. It's how he imparts his knowledge.

Seems like 400Nitro has a God Complex going.

Gator1, I have known 400 for several yrs personally, and I think you are all wet on his dispencing of information. He simply reads like a technical manual, with no personality involved, in posts dispencing facts. One expects that when reading a technical manual, written as if by a computer, but, somehow, not when you know he is a member just like you and me.

When talking to Mark face to face you wouldn't reccognize him. I wll say, he suffers eronious information poorly, and is quick to correct it before it takes on a life of it's own, and becomes more urban legend, to be used improperly, by the novice, who doesn't know better, and who lurk these forums.

I don't for one minute think Mark has a GOD COMPLEX, I think he knows he is right, and says so without appology to anyone! You don't always have to like the teacher to use their expertese, to further your education.

I really don't have a dog in this fight, but do have an opinion about this thread, and I consider Mark to be a good friend, and find that the only time I see the things that seem to bother you is, when dealing with folks that don't have a clue, but speak as if their opinion is fact. That is dangerous, in some cases, and needs to be nipped in the bud, so to speak!

Mark is very critical of double rifles that are not , first, and foremost British, and secondly of working rifles that are not made to look at, but to use in the field, and so are a little rough on the outside. Mark simply can't stand them, even if the actually shoot better, and are stronger than a so-called fine double rifle. In this area he is a snob, but that is the collector in him, nothing more! For the info he has on tapp, I believe that fault is cheap pay for the benefite he offers!

All this is only my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions! Still my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it!

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:
Seems like 400Nitro has a God Complex going.

Obviously, someone stepped on your johnson. It wasn't me. I haven't traded a post with you that I can remember in years, nor can I remember ever having had a disagreement with you. I know a number of people here personally, and consider many of them friends. Perhaps not all like me, but most of those who know me seem to. I don't always agree with them on the board. No two people are always going to agree on everything.

While I usually do respond in kind when someone posts something that's intended to offend (in contrast to my response to you here), my posts are otherwise intended to be matter of fact. That may differ from what I'm like in person. I don't know. If you don't like my posts, you don't have to read them.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

is quick to correct it

Sometimes, but only after all the verbal abuse.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

is quick to correct it

Sometimes, but only after all the verbal abuse.

In your case that's true, since you're so quick to initiate it, as you have here. You never miss a chance to be condescending and insulting and, like I said, I usually respond in kind.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

I wll say, he suffers eronious information poorly

Damn, if you are suffering so, why do you even bother responding?

As I recall you had not answered anything when "ireload2" asked the question for which you responded that you had, in a most suffering manner.

The bottomline in all this topic is 1) don't use wads over fast burning powder and 2) fill up all the air space with when using RL-15.

Why anyone has to suffer in any way to finally get to these conclusions is beyond me. If these conclusions are so "well known and so blatantly obvious" just say so without all the commentary.

There has been much information I have absorbed here on AR but likewise there are loads of crap for which I bite my tongue.

I guess I am long suffering in my own way!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
As I recall you had not answered anything when "ireload2" asked the question for which you responded that you had, in a most suffering manner.

I had done so a couple of times before that point. As usual, you didn't read the string...

quote:

The bottomline in all this topic is 1) don't use wads over fast burning powder

...as that confirms.

quote:

I guess I am long suffering in my own way!

Only by your own hand.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Ah, the king of cut and paste.

I have no problem with 400 Nitro Express. I haven’t met him but hope to change that status one of these days. I have had minor differences of opinion with him in the past and probably will in the future. Such is the case on a forum. I do respect his knowledge and only wish I could collect Best quality English guns.
Bill

Have to agree with MacD37 on this one. I've always used 5744 WITHOUT a filler and never had a problem and have shot my 470NE hundreds of times with cast bullets. Follow directions.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
The Brits never mounted anything bigger than a 16" such as used on the Rodney and the Nelson.

Not true.

Armstrong's built three 18"/40s, intended for the large cruiser HMS Furious. One gun was mounted for trials, but it was found that the ship couldn't withstand the overpressure, so Furious was converted to an aircraft carrier.

The three 18" guns were then diverted to the Lord Clive class monitors. HMS General Wolfe and HMS Lord Clive both deployed with 18" and both saw action in 1918. HMS Prince Eugene got the third 18", but wasn't completed in time for the war.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

One turreted gun never used in combat after triass failure. The other two with no deflection worthless against other ships. A total of 85 round fired......

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
One turreted gun never used in combat after triass failure.

Again, not true. They deployed and fired 85 rounds in action against enemy targets in 1918.

quote:

The other two with no deflection worthless against other ships.

Nor were those individual mountings intended otherwise. Monitors were not battle line ships. They were bombardment vessels, intended to engage enemy targets ashore, which is exactly what they did.

quote:

A total of 85 round fired.....

...at the enemy. That's a lot more than a number of new built battleships commissioned during the war fired at enemy targets.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

will the chap who blew up the rifle get in touch with me.

i may have an economical answer to his problem

ftondrus@hotmail.com

tomo
If you mean me, the rifle was not mine it went back to Champlins.

Also let me add that I have known 400Nitro for several years.
We have shot, and hunted together many times.

Besides his extensive knowledge about double rifles, he is a most excellent FAST and ACCURATE shot on game with a double rifle.

I have seen him shoot on several occasions.

He is one of my very best friends.

His posts here on AR sometimes come across with out good "bed side manner", as in "print" he is a matter of fact kind of guy.

However, in person, he is one of the FINEST fellas you will ever meet.

If you have any doubts to what I have said, just come to a DRSS hunt where he is present.