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I just got a call from a guy in California who loaded 45gr of Accurate 5744 with 1 Kynoch foam wad under a 500gr cast bullet. Although he'd shot 50 or so of the same rounds, the result of "the one" was a pair of Kreighoff 470 barrels that separated at the breech end. Obviously, one foam plug was not enough filler for such a small amount of powder (see Graeme Wrights' explanation of the "Secondary Projectile Effect.") However, Accurate also indicates that no filler is necessary with 5744 loads. Either way, the barrels (and likely the action too) are toast. Just don't want to see anyone else repeat this exercise. | ||
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Who knows for sure? Was there a witness? I would hate to have this be one of those posts..."Oh, sorry, I actually did so and so..." ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will – I’m not trying to spread rumors. The guy that called me was the owner of the rifle. He was also the guy that loaded the ammo, and he was the guy that pulled the trigger. He has two witnesses, but I'm not sure they're relevant. He pulled the trigger on the reduced load, the gun doubled with excessive recoil. He could not get the gun open after firing. He took it to a gunsmith, who had to pry the barrels open. The right barrel cartridge was separated, but the left barrel cartridge looked fine. The gun was sent to Kreighoff. Krieghoff said the barrels were separated at the breech and that the action would have to go back to Germany for inspection before they would consider putting new barrels on it. Wright does a pretty good job of explaining the "Secondary Projectile Effect" and the variables here seem to fit. | |||
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Well, I'm guessing he won't be using reduced loads again. That's going to be expensive. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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| One Of Us |
You're right. Something to the tune of about 8K for a new set of barrels. The lesson for all here is to understand how fillers should be used - and to make sure you use them correctly. | |||
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Help me here, is AA5744 okay to use without fillers? Or is the lesson that AA5744 is no good with or without fillers? Mike | |||
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Hey! Use enough fluff!  It works fine in a .395 Tatanka bolt action single barrel pushing 340-grainers at a screaming 1650 fps! Fill the case with something, but not a double-jigger charge of 5744! XMR or AA 5744 has a burn rate similar to pistol powders like IMR4227, even faster than H110. Did that foam wad turn sideways and cause a bore obstruction? Another case of the "plastic worm" ringing the chambers? Ross Seyfried warned us about that! Did he double-charge one of those cases? He very well could have with that small a single-charge of powder. That would be a bomb. | |||
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If 5744 is fine with no filler, then an inadequate little foam wad that still left air space in the case could not have been a problem with 45 grains of 5744 in a 470 NE with 500-grain cast bullet of proper size. I guess he loaded 90 grains of 5744 in the offending cartridge. It sounds like there was only one bad shot taken that ended the action of the action. RIP. | |||
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Mike - the mfg indicates that no filler is to be used. The guy indicated that he was weighing each charge and inserting the foam wads by hand. It would be difficult to not notice 90 grains of powder in a case when you were used to seeing foam plugs go into cases that had only 45 grains. | |||
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To the contrary, that scenario supports Wright's theory precisely. The powder choice has little to do with the source of the damage. The damage is caused by the filler moving inside the case under ignition and coming into contact with a stationary bullet in the case mouth. See page 70 of Wright's 2nd edition for details. | |||
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Chris, Thanks. I have used AA5744 but always with no filler, thank goodness. Mike | |||
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Chris, I have used this load quite a bit with the 470 and 505G and it works fine, of course without filler. I will say that in such a large case, and because you cannot see your charge it can spell trouble for those who might accidently double a load. I am not implying this is what happened in this case but I always take extra precaution when loading with this powder because it can hold a double load and more. "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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Chris, Wright's theory I don't recall. Do not have access to the book at the moment, but will check it out when I can reach my copy. Could this support Ross Seyfried's warning against the use of foam wads, even with RL-15? If somebody could quote a few lines or scan the page and post it, that would certainly serve the discussion. I am very disappointed with 5744 accuracy in reduced loads for bolt action. Of course the velocity of such loads is supposed to be kept low. Reduced loads only to be intended in big bores, with no filler. My bolt action plinker load worked very well with polyester fluff filler around 1650 fps. I would have no desire to use a powder faster than RL-15 with filler in my 470 NE double, and I much prefer a full case load of H4831 in a strong, modern double (Merkel) without weak and thin antique barrels. | |||
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Why use any powder that does not max out available space? It's the 21st century, why are folks still using filler/wads? Hell, why does Federal use RL 15(?) and why should such a load have so much airspace? Soon guys will start loading that smokey powder used in cowboy shoots and start calling it Safari Action Shooting. Harken back to the turn of the last century. Truth is, I don't get the whole black powder/muzzle loader crowd either. | |||
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I agree. Fill em up and let em fly ! No air, No foam, No wad. | |||
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This thread caught my eye... I do a lot of down loads.. however, I never recommend using fillers, unless the manufacturer says to... and instead of following their instructions, I'll pick another powder... I don't like fillers.. fillers still occupy space within the cartridge, and the more volume you take up in there, the more increase in pressure you are going to have... Take a load that is near max, and leave some corn or walnut cleaning media in the case...it will raise pressures enough to pop primers... you don't need fillers with 5744... in fact, I don't recommend using fillers at all... Life Member: The American Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Jan 20, 2009.. Prisoner in Dumocrat 'Occupied America', Partisan in the 'Save America' Underground Beavis..... James Beavis..... Of Her Majesty's Secret Service..... Spell Check Division "Posterity — you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it." John Quincy Adams A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him "Why do you carry a 45?" The Ranger responded, "Because they don't make a 46." Duhboy....Nuttier than Squirrel Poop... | |||
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Because the powders that fill up the space don't have the same burn rate as the powder these cartridges were designed for. In some rifles that makes a difference. In others it doesn't. I don't see that as the relevant question here anyway. What I've never understood is... WHAT in the HELL is the need for reduced loads in large bore double rifles any bloody way? I can't even begin to see the need. These become completely different rifles with full loads than what they are with reduced, rendering "practice" with reduced loads utterly worthless in learning to master them. Likewise, they aren't plinking rifles either. The large cases don't lend themselves to safe reduced loads anyway. If you want to become proficient with a heavy double, then the only way to do it is to shoot normal loads, and learning to handle the recoil is central to the learning curve. If you can't tolerate the recoil, sometimes the chosen cartridge is just too much for you, or sometimes it's an underweight, or poorly designed, or poorly stocked rifle. Whatever it is, you got the wrong one, and need to either modify it, or get something else. In 20 odd years of shooting double rifles I've never fired a reduced load in one of my own, and never will. ----------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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You've recommended Blue Dot for reduced loads in .223 haven't you? Does the manufacturer agree with you?  ------------------------------------------------ "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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Damn. I never imagined we would agree on anything, But in this I totally agree. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Here's a relavant paragraph from Wright's book: “One of the major problems with wads occur if they are loaded in such a way as to leave an airspace between the wad the base of the bullet. What is believed to happen is that as the powder ignites, the wad accelerates inside the case before the projectile moves. When the wad hits the stationary projectile it creates an area of high pressure and may cause chamber ringing of the area of the bullet base. The projectile effectively acts as an obstruction. This phenomenon is sometimes called the secondary projectile effect; the wad acts as a second projectile inside the case.†| |||
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BTW, Kynoch has done more work with the flanged nitros than anyone else in the world since Cordite went away, and have done so with the advantage of state of the art pressure testing equipment. They also use other technology we don't have - they use blends of multiple non-canister grade propellants specially mixed to match burn rate and keep the pressures down - and they STILL use fillers in all flanged nitro factory ammo from .400 up. They're the same foam wads they sell to the public as components. ------------------------------------------------ "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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One of Us |
Filler up and let fly...what macho crap!!! How many times do you shoot your big Bores? I shoot mine every week and can match accuracy of hot lots with reduced loads and filler under 80 yrds. I get all the fun without the bruises. You tell me the foam filler doesn't burn away before it reaches the bullet...another load of crap!!! | |||
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Like I said, if you're getting bruised you got the wrong one.
Er, ah...well, no, it doesn't. It doesn't burn in the bore either. In fact, it doesn't burn at all. I regularly pick them up down range after one of our DR shooting sessions.  ----------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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Macho crap. Oh thank you. Yes, I do shoot my big bores, no I don't get bruised. Yes, I fill the cases up with a powder, no or little airspace, no filler or foam. Once I have a load worked out for a gun, the load is worked out, it shoots, I don't need to keep shooting it all the time, I move onto another one. Or I go hunting. | |||
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I hope you guys are arguing about something that didn't happen that way. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Dont want to start a Sh*T storm, but has anyone tried Trail Boss in a 470 or a 577? Ed DRSS Member | |||
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Trail Boss, sounds like chewing tobacco, or that smokey cowboy powder. | |||
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I was actually wondering the same thing about Trail Boss... It's a powder shaped into "doughnuts" It's meant to be v. bulky. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor. | |||
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The below statement is my post on Nitro Express double rifle forum!
....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Hodgdon & Norma powders used to load 470 fill the cases real well. | |||
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Hello, I have used 5744, per the ballistician at Accurate, as follows, Magnum primer, no filler. I am shooting Speer Gold dot 325 and 400 gariners out of a 470 NE no problems ! I an also using 5744 in a 450 NE with 300, 400, 405 and 500 grain bullets, also no problems or signs of any pressure. Key points Magnum primer (CCI250 or Rem 9 1/2) NO FILLER.  Thanks "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall DRSS, BASA 470 Krieghoff, 45-70 inserts, 12 ga paradox, 20 ga DR Simson/Schimmel, 12 ga DR O/U Famars, 12 ga DR SXS Greener | |||
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| one of us |
The 470 is one of the best to use with modern powders, because the case is filled enough to negate the use of fillers with most slow powders. This is not the case with all NE cartridges, however, and with most a filler of some type are a must if one is to get the best from his double rifle!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Absolutely! But 5744 powder is a silly powder, that is not needed! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Oxymoron.............  Reduced loads are for girls.  Buy a girlie gun if you can't handle the fun. | |||
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My name is Gary, I'm posting on Harry's login because I can't remember mine. I had a .470 NE explode in my hands Oct. 2006 with a 400 gr Hawk in front of 55 gr 5744. No filler. The gun had previously been heavily fouled with cast lead bullets and 5744, and shot maybe 40 times. The point of initiation of the failure was at the projectile in the throat, and split two banana peel like strips out, with the splits running all the way back to the breech end of the barrel and forward a similar distance. I was slightly injured in the thumb and face and plenty traumatized. As an aside, I would surely have been blinded in the left eye had it not been for my glasses. I cannot be sure what caused the problem, however, and this is the point of the post, it seems that the combination of 5744 and lead .470 bullets may not be a good one. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I shot a fair amount of AA 5744 in a 45-70 behind a 500-grain lead bullet. I used 27 grains and a 1/8" wad of florist foam cut by the mouth of the case; just pushed it over the case, and tamped it down into place... Never had a problem. I don't consider this a filler, maybe you fellows do. I do know that I never had a problem, and I darned sure don't believe the powder is the issue here. | |||
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Mac, Please list the calibres you think need a filler with Modern powders. I would say 450 No 2 the 475's ? What's your call - or anyone else's ? | |||
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Having had the pleasure of screwing up a perfectly good rifle with a overload of powder  10 grains over in a 788 .243. I am of the belief that perhaps, just maybe, there was a little more powder in the case than the owner is saying or perhaps was aware of , just maybe now I was not there but reading between the lines I have a hard time believing a filler would cause that much damage  Of course I have been wrong before.Never rode a bull, but have shot some. NRA life member NRA LEO firearms instructor (retired) NRA Golden Eagles member | |||
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I am lighting off my 5744 in the backyard barbie. I was unsatisfied with its lack of uniform ballistics with no filler for reduced loads. I have learned my lesson. I cannot use filler with that goofy powder: bulky and dirty and like IMR-4227 burn rate if you are lucky. Possibly locking the powder in place with filler leads to even more rapid than "magnum pistol powder" burn rate, in effect a detonation occasionally. Especially if a double charge is accidentally touched off. Thanks all, for the education. I played with fire and did not get burned. | |||
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Rip, where did you see this? Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles 5744 + Filler = Ruined Barrels
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