The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles What's happened to double rifle prices?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| What's happened to double rifle prices? | Login/Join |
One of Us |
Gents: I could not transfer my table to this post. I looked through the 1900 Holland catalog and listed items and their prices in gunieas. Then, I calculated the price in 1900 US dollars. Then, via the internet, I found the 2017 price after adjustments. So what has happened to the price of fine English guns? They have out paced inflation by several fold. Interesting. Cheers, Cal royal ejector double shotgun 65-------------------1900 price in guineas 332------------------1900 price is US dollars 9486-----------------2017 price adjustment royal ejector double rifle 100 511 14,600 8-bore Paradox double--best quality 70 358 10,229 8-bore Paradox double--2nd quality 55 287 8200 577 bpe double rifle--best 70 358 10,229 Royal ejector shotgun set of 3 195 997 28,486 oak and leather case 5 26 743 pair royal deluxe shotguns 200 1023 29,229 8-bore hammer double rifle 70 358 10,229 2nd quality double shotgun 50 256 7314 3rd quality double shotgun 35 179 5114 gun fitting session 1 5 143 double punt gun, 1.5” bore 120 614 17,543 303 bolt rifle--best 35 179 5114 375 cordite double rifle--best 70 358 10,229 Scope, fitted to rifle 12 58 1657 12-bore Paradox double--best 65 332 9486 best quality hammer shotgun 60 307 8771 price to add ejectors 5 26 743 improved rook rifle 12 61 1743 4-bore double shotgun 75 384 10,500 8-bore double shotgun 70 358 10,229 cordite single rifle 35 179 5114 _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | ||
|
| one of us |
About that same time Africa was resurrected mostly by the series of books by Peter Capstick followed by the dawn of fenced hunting in So. Africa at cheap pricing, then Tanzania and Zimbabwe followed by others countrys in the region jumped in on a good thing and offered Dangerous Game at very reasonable pricing and the double once again found the place of its birth, along with clothes fashion, snake skin hat bands, shorts, boots and gators and those African boots took off like a forest fire, Africa fashion was in, Africa was in solid..Prices went up drastically evey year on hunting and on those fine double rifles, it was a fire storm, SCI grew to huge porportions, big money was everywhere! Ronald Regan ruled, Butch Searcy jumped in offering a "new" double rifle at a reasonable price, followed by other double rifle makers, the old English doubles came out of the woodwork, off the wall and back in service as ammo of all calibers was once again available and all was GOOD, Those were the days my friend, but alas nothing last forever, and world condition, travel, Isis, and terroism and greedy African govts. took their toll on our happy world, especially on DG, and prices went out of sight, Tanzania went totlly nuts and the good old boys that saved and didn't buy a new house or car and hunted every year or every other year, bought double rifles and high dollare bolt guns basically took it in the shorts and simply had to quit going. The need for the double, that never was great, but steady, started failing and continues to do so. It may or may not be a good thing in the long run, hopefully it will level off and be affordable once again for the common man.. I lived and thrived thru the best of it and I wish that on everyone that loves hunting. I think if Africa and our country comes to their senses all will come around and the market will once again thrive, but depending on the black govt. of Africa, with their tribal background its not likely in that they can live on $600 a month or $10,000 a month and be as happy as can be, has been my observation. Our country seems to be in turmoil and our president is under constant attack by assholes. and the result of that is were in deep trouble..I can't believe what Im seeing and the economy with rifles and every other damn thing can't survive such and onslaught from the media and the left that cares less about us, to the extent that they would destroy our country before they would give an inch. They are like children having temper tantrums.. That's just what Im seeing, I think I know how it got there, but have no idea where its headed. and that will effect the price of doublel rifles but Im not sure that's so important come to think of it..A sad day. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
Great synopsis of valuations Cal. Thanks for doing this. I have no idea why we see such ridiculous prices but hazard a guess that the prominent gun firms, as auto manufacturers, see the value of their products as art for the discerning purchaser with a lot of discretionary income. As for me, I'll stick to auctions. | |||
|
one of us |
I have to agree wholly with Ray on this one! The pricing of anything in Africa today has completely priced me out of the game. On the prices asked for on double rifles will make me live with the seven I own, and for get any further purchases of doubles! I use the doubles I own to hunt just about everything I hunt in the USA, or Canada, so my days in Africa are sadly over! ....................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
|
| one of us |
Well, now I am confused (not unusual). I thought that the point that Cal was making was that the price of English doubles has done well compared with inflation. This is presumably true, as these are collectors items for the few that are knowledgeable and value such items. This puts them is a special category. The newer manufactured guns? Well I don't think they have done so well. I have bought and sold an M.K Owen 450NE, a Krieghoff 500/416, and a Blaser in 500NE. While I made money on all the transactions, the competition was the price of brand new ones, and a pretty small market for double rifles in that price range. The improved economy does not seem to have affected the market for such items very favorably. Perhaps it is all due to the President being under constant attack by assholes. I agree with the comments on the price of African hunts, but again, if free markets prevail, and it is difficult to see how they cannot in this case, then prices will gravitate to a sustainable level. Even "the black govt. of Africa and their tribal background" will understand that. However, there may be plenty of rich Chinese, Russian oligarchs,a and rich Germans to fill the places of the rich Americans. I still have my Tikka 512SD in 9.3x74R which might fill the bill should Africa become more reasonable! I do think that we are seeing a major sea change in the role of hunting in people's lives, however. Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
|
| One of Us |
It seems that the price of doubles and other items from Holland have increased 10x inflation. It would be interesting to compare the wages of the gunsmiths and other company expenses to see their rate of increase. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
|
| one of us |
Interesting point Cal. With today's technology, many manufactured goods should be cheaper. However, the cost of the machinery is such that one presumably has to make and sell X in order to break even on the manufacturing costs. If gunsmith wages have not increased substantially, then perhaps guns could be made by hand at a reasonable price. But, we still come back to "who wants a double rifle?". Notice I did not say "who needs a double rifle"! As I have said before, double rifle aficionados are their own worst enemy. They consistently pooh pooh the efforts by some manufacturers to produce more reasonably priced double rifles as "inferior", resulting I believe, in many potential purchasers turning away. I give as an example the relative costs and quality of bolt rifles and semiautomatic handguns now, compared with 20 years ago for accuracy, durability,reliability AND price. But, the double rifle shooter does not seem to want that. He wants "tradition"! I attempted to touch on this in a previous post "Beauty Tradition and Technology". Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
|
| One of Us |
I think that the price of these 1900 guns in today's money equates to rather more today than your figures suggest, if you look at what people were being paid. If you look at what was paid to a labourer in London in 1900 - about a pound a week - and compare it to what a labourer earns in London today - about 300 pounds a week - the gun which cost 65 guineas in 1900 equates to about 20,475 quid, or over $26,000 in today's money. The labourer in 1900 worked a 10 hour day too, for a six day week, so if you apply that to today's labourer, factoring-in overtime, your 65 guinea shotgun is the equivalent of about 30,000 pounds today - a bit over $38,000. You get a similar sort of outcome if you compare a tradesman's rates between the two time periods, or a clerk. Still shows that the price has moved faster than the earning power of hoi polloi though ;-) | |||
|
One of Us |
You see that Cal's list has a number of shotguns on it as well so this is not specific to double rifles as much as it is across the fine firearm spectrum. A big contributor is the lack of skilled craftsmen and the commensurate cost of those still carrying on the craft. Take engraving. This was once one of the least expensive costs of producing a fine firearm and now is very likely the highest. What does a DR cost to engrave to a high standard today? $10K or so? More? I just got a quote from H&H for a pretty straightforward stock job and they want £15,000!!! I think there is some measure of the suppliers killing the demand with pricing like that. | |||
|
| one of us |
That's the power of the name "H&H"! Some will pay that, and some won't. That's the difference between a plebian and a patrician! I own a CSMC SxS 20ga. shotgun, fitted case etc. I love the gun, and the looks, AND the price! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
|
One of Us |
. Some of the leading post WW2 investment returns have been seen in - 1/ top English guns (rifles and shotguns) 2/ top French red wines (mainly thanks to Asia) 3/ modern art and 4/ top carriage clocks Visiting H&H two weeks ago in London, I had the pleasure to speak with someone in the gun room, who was happy to share his knowledge with me on Holland & Holland guns. Here some of his comments - - in the 80s and 90s there were a significant number of European buyers who purchased new guns for their children, god children and grand children, which they left in store at Holland for collection when the children turned 18 or 21 or whatever age they agreed! A lot of those children are now coming in and selling their 'new' guns straight off without ever taking delivery or using them ?! What cost GBP 7.500 to 15.00 then is now 20.000 to 45.000 - whenever the GBP slides they usually see significant orders from Europe (Germany, Italy, Spain and increasing Russia) and the USA - the price of new depending on specs tends to start at GBP 75.000 and go anywhere north from there! - whilst a lot of their new build rifles are deer calibers the bulk are Africa calibers and as a last comment, they used to have the gun room at the front of the store but moved it to the back rooms as they simply had too many smashed and damaged windows through antis throwing rocks and bricks! They also closed down their sporting travel business due to pressure from the antis. Are guns a good investment ? Possibly, but like art, I would not buy one if I did not get great pleasure from owning it and using it (looking at it) for what it was made for. And unlike wine, which only leaves you with memories and and empty bottle when you have used it, a great DR or shotgun can be reloaded and used again and again and again! Charlie . "Up the ladders and down the snakes!" | |||
|
| One of Us |
Quality and condition always sells. There are a great many altered and abused English guns and rifles on the market for too much money. Unfortunately, bad restoration and ill-advised alterations destroy value faster than anything else. Some dealers an sellers are also very adept at marketing altered and sub-quality guns in glowing terms and thereby catching the bewildered and unwary. On the other hand, good quality stuff in good condition will always be in demand and will always sell for good money and will keep its value. A dealer friend of mine recently sold near-mint H&H Royal .500/465 NE, WR New Model Underlever take-down .500 (3") NE, 1914-vintage William Evans .470 NE and a trio of Purdey 12-bore game guns. All six went for top dollar, all six were in eminently usable condition and all six will hold their value extremely well. Buy well, look after it well, and it well sell well again one day. And look out for the sharks and some of the "experts". As Jack O'Connor once memorably wrote, "Pick your expert". | |||
|
| One of Us |
| |||
|
| One of Us |
Sorry for the fumble fingers. Tried to edit my previous post! | |||
|
| One of Us |
I do like this one, but I think it is about $3,000 high given the market. http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100799143 | |||
|
| One of Us |
Or even less. Look at the picture of the top of the action. To the right and left of the dolls head there are two rectangular metal pieces that are not uniform to my eye. They look funky. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Colin, an exceedingly high price at Griffin & Howe? Say it isn't so!!! :-) | |||
|
| One of Us |
It doesn't mention lock-up or bore condition. I'm suspicious of generalities. | |||
|
One of Us |
Assuming it is on face and the bores are good, I would far rather have that rifle than a Chapius or Verney Carron in the same general pricing zip code. That fifth picture shows one of the reasons English doubles are so great . . . slim and trim through grip. Mike | |||
|
One of Us |
They are simply selling a product at what the market will bear. Technology should make them available with less hands on craftsmanship but the hands on craftsmanship is what makes them what they are. This is the old Ferrari vs Ford paradigm, it is not about equal performance it is desirability and scarcity. What would it cost to make an original HH today is a great question. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
|
| One of Us |
Agreed, Mike. I would have this one if the chambers and bores were in good shape and I could get it for 10-11k. A removable hinge pin/replacement job from JJ is usually in the 5-6 hundred range. I believe those two rectangular metal pieces on the breach lumps are cocking indicators like I use to see on older hammer rifles. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The two rectangles are dovetails that carry the firing pin holes. They are slotted into the breech face. I guess something like a bushed striker but just replace the dovetail if the pin hole gets too big. Shitty explanation that would be very clear with a picture of the breech face. The forend iron is rusted badly. | |||
|
One of Us |
Speaking to the gunroom manager at HH last month, it appears they make most of their revenue from their shotguns (about 70% sales). They break even on their bolt-action rifles (they now use FZH actions, having used up their cache of original Mauser actions). They make good profits from their doubles, but only make 4 to 6 per year; 470NE and 500NE are most popular calibres. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
|
One of Us |
Generally Griffin and Howe have reasonable prices on things. I have bought a couple from them, nothing too weird, just stuff that they had available. Their own built guns and their classic built guns are another story, they are generally priced over what I think is a good price. | |||
|
| One of Us |
In general buying a gun of a known name, in good condition and popular caliber usually is a good investment. However there is a major difference when one buy as an investor or as user. The user often buy guns to end-user prices which might take up to a generation to catch up. Here is a good example of a max end-user price an investor would never buy: http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100852865 It may have the name but the caliber speaks against it, it has been for sale in ages + the seller has signaled to potential buyers they cannot even offer a dollar lower to move anywhere. For me as an investor I already know NOBODY has interest in this gun particular for that price. In my book such should be bought for Max USD 5500-6000 and it might could sell in 10 years time for USD7500-8500...but it´s still a lottery ticket because of the caliber. If I had seen other doublerifles "move" fairly quickly in .450/400 2 3/8" caliber I might have could have interest, but as the marked is the realistic price is about$5500 and one may just be lucky to sell it again for that price. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
|
One of Us |
Was looking at that one just this morning. Thought the same thing. Would be fun to play with but I was thinking for only about $6K. Mac | |||
|
| One of Us |
Personally, I never buy from a dealer--the prices are always a significant markup (note Conn. Shotgun's prices!). I never sell at auctions as it is a crap shoot. I never sell to a dealer as they offer bottom dollar while telling you all the flaws and negative points about the gun (but when they sell it, it is a rare collector grade that commands a premium). I do buy many from auctions. Gun dealers are masters at double speak and phrasing words to avoid the truth. I have fun years ago keeping track of the lies local dealers in Anchorage would tell me to make the sale. The fairest of all is a deal between two individuals. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
|
| One of Us |
I am more open minded....a deal is where you find it. The best buy of my life came from Cabela's. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Funny, mine too. A Bernadelli double in .475 No. 2. An ejector rifle with articulated front trigger, sideclips, Greener crossbolt, etc. Rifle was very barrel heavy. Purchased it for under $7000 and had a mercury reducer added to give it weight in the butt. Very well regulated double too. Mike | |||
|
| one of us |
CAl is correct the price of double rifles has increases 10X perhaps and I doubled or tripled my money on many a double, but its coming down at the same rate like a snowball rolling down hill. that's hard to swallow for many on AR I suspect. BTW, nothing we do will effect the black gov. of Africa, as posted above. The tribal concept is written in stone..The officials still prefer tribal life to modern society and can live just as well on no money as they do dragging in big bucks, at least for the most part, if they get a headache they quite thinking as that's what the witch doctor told one official I know, a certified prescription for his headaches, sez you are thinking too much, quit thinking...I have that document hanging in my office..Not an all bad option come to think of it and I know the wealthy official very well indeed, He said I quit thinking and the headaches went away....and some think the prices are coming down!! I hope your right. Its incredibly hard for us as Americans to understand the tribal thinking, not do most even try or care..I have some insight based on dealings with them over the years, Most Africans also understand the situation and most are real crazy about it/ I may have drifted off the subject a bit here, but it all interlocks together, there is no simple answer to the question. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
Well, The big 3 manufacturers of double rifles , WR, Purdey and Hollands all have full books with 2-3 yr wait times. Westley Richards have produced more doubles than Purdey or Holland, and in the modern era this holds true. Over the past 3 years prices have increased 20-30% for new orders. Therefore , replacement cost by the time you receive your order has increased. People who don't want to wait the 3 odd years will pay, no doubt about it. Agree we are talking a very limited market here, but these are the facts. Older antique doubles can be a different situation. As stated prior, ones in pristine condition with good stock measurement still command and get top dollar. Those that are tired, or need re stocking , barrel work etc are worth much less. Some are just not with touching , as I have found out having Done the math on quite a few. To re barrel/ regulate or even restock at one of the above named factories make the investment not feasible. So we have a very 2 tiered market, premium and then the rest. Just my. 2 cents worth Cheers Nick | |||
|
| one of us |
Like most things in this world the rich get richer and the poor get poorer! The market of doubles can double ever year, but hell they only produce very few guns, so it takes a couple of years of back orders and not sure the idea is relevant from that standpoint.. I do know for a fact and so does every double rifle expert on this board, doubles are in a tail spin downward..doubles I could have sold for $10,000 a year ago are selling for $8000 today and that's a first..Ive historically made double to triple my investments on doubles over the last decade, but its not happening now, and the more expensive they are the harder they are to move because the market isn't there anymore.. Belive as you will, its the same as the stock maket or futures, you can make a mint, but the bottom can fall out in a heart beat and take you to the cleaners...It a gamble, sometime you win, sometimes you draw and sometimes you go broke. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
We shall agree to differ on our views. My reference was addressed at the premium end of the market, Believe it or not it is healthy!!!! Now , when your referring to doubles priced at $10k or less, Well to be quite frank you ain't getting much at that price point!! You say that you doubled and tripled your money on doubles previously? Can you supply some examples of the types of doubles these were? Did you buy one for $8k and sell for $24k ?? Very curious if these were English or continental guns. CHeers NicK | |||
|
One of Us |
  USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
|
| One of Us |
About a dozen years ago I purchased my 1905 Gibbs 450NE for $7k, hope I could double that price today. | |||
|
| One of Us |
If in very good condition (bores, wood etc) and quality typical of the Gibbs boxlocks, I would think doubling your money wouldn't present a problem. Now, consider putting the initial dollar amount in another compounding investment, even at doubling your money, the gun hasn't been a terrible investment. That is merely a 6% increase in value per year which doesn't sound like much but these days isn't bad. So, if there were good solid investment opportunities which guaranteed a 6% annual return when you bought your Gibbs then the rifle would have been a more risky investment but as it is, it has been a much better investment than any savings account or ten year treasury bill available. Plus, you get to SHOOT and ENJOY your investment as it appreciates! | |||
|
| One of Us |
But in one case you have worthless paper, in the other you have a double rifle  "If you’re innocent why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?”- Donald Trump | |||
|
| One of Us |
I would love to see a couple of pictures, I love the Gibbs doubles. colin.masters@gmail.com ? In my opinion, there are very few Gibbs doubles available. Tack on 2K+ .... | |||
|
| One of Us |
I will also add that I have never thought of a gun as an investment. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles What's happened to double rifle prices?
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia