DOUBLE TROUBLE

07 October 2013, 17:57

MJines

DOUBLE TROUBLE

quote:
Originally posted by jorge:
The WR 450-400 I spoke of was made well before WWII...

Pre-WWII is not generally referred to as meaning any time before 1939. The reference generally refers to a window of time representing the period shortly after WWI and prior to WWII. So we are not talking about a long period of time, essentially the 1920's and 1930's. I am not suggesting that any rifle made in that period never had a problem, I am just saying that for those that understand and study double rifles, that is generally viewed as being the "prime time" when the craft was at its peak in terms of workmanship and quality. For me, assuming price was equal, I would take the pre-WWII used double over any modern newly manufactured, even bespoke, rifle. Your mileage my vary, results may not be typical.

07 October 2013, 18:15

shootaway

The only way of telling which are better or if any have issues is to shoot a DR on a regular basis for a few years.This is difficult to do because of recoil or owning many of them etc...If one shoots one for 20 or 30 rds how can they draw any conclusion or how valid is there opinion?Like I said,shoot just one over and over again weekly for a long time and then tell us about it.

07 October 2013, 19:41

jorge

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
For me, assuming price was equal, I would take the pre-WWII used double over any modern newly manufactured, even bespoke, rifle.

You and the entire known universe..save of course for microcephallic morons like shitaway...

07 October 2013, 20:00

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by jorge:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
For me, assuming price was equal, I would take the pre-WWII used double over any modern newly manufactured, even bespoke, rifle.

You and the entire known universe..save of course for microcephallic morons like shitaway...

And I meant any newly manufactured double, Holland & Holland, Westley Richards and while I would think hard about it, Purdy.

07 October 2013, 20:49

Mike Brooks

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
The only way of telling which are better or if any have issues is to shoot a DR on a regular basis for a few years.This is difficult to do because of recoil or owning many of them etc...If one shoots one for 20 or 30 rds how can they draw any conclusion or how valid is there opinion?Like I said,shoot just one over and over again weekly for a long time and then tell us about it.

And the revelation has been brought about by you having how many DR's over how many years?

NONE!???

07 October 2013, 21:01

BLS

quote:
Originally posted by srose:
I know I'm probably going to upset some people with this thread but I've had my bate of it. First thing I want to say is that every double I've had problems with the dealer that sold them to me did everything they could to make it right. That is except Cabelas.

OK lets see where to start. I have purchased quite a few doubles new from dealers both factory specs and custom made for me. Just about every manufacturer that I have purchased has had problems. Some issues were small and some were large. Some were cosmetic and some were down right dangerous.

Here are some of the issues I've had.

Searcy 470 I bought from an individual had barrels fall apart after 8 shots. Called Butch and he took gun back fixed it and sent it back to me at no cost. 8 shots later barrels came apart again, sent it back and Butch fixed it right this time and gun is still shooting well. Again at no cost to me. That's customer service.

Chapuis 470 had chambers that left the end of the cases looking like a star crimped shotshell after firing. Dealer took gun back and sent me a new one which was fine. Almost didn't get it back in time for a hunt I was going on.

Verney Carron 577 had triggers lock up after first two shots. Dealer offered to send to gunsmith but I didn't have time to wait so I disassembled the gun and fixed it. The same gun later started spewing rust and salts out between the ribs. Dealer sent it back to factory for repair and 8 months later I got gun back and was unhappy with to results so I had them make me a new gun. Took 8 months to get that one.

Sabatti 500 shot really well and I was very pleased with it. Bragged on it and shot it over 1000 times them the ribs separated in several places. Poor solder or glue joints, that's right looked more like glue than solder. Called Cabelas and they told me to send it to USSG EAA for repair and that's it. No offer to replaced or repair it for me. Sent gun to USSG and never heard a word out of them. Finally I called and they said they had to send it back to factory for repair. No idea when I might get that one back.

Heym 577 that I ordered had firing pins that didn't protrude enough and had a few misfires. Chambers were really tight so sent it to JJ for adjustment and rechambering. Just got thaat one back and am happy with the results.

Now here is my point or my complaint. I'm sick and tired of hearing "IT PASSED PROOF" well the proofers need to be fired!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How can any factory making guns that cost what doubles cost send out guns that are not right. Any double over 375 caliber should be considered a dangerous game gun and should work everytime. They should not have to be sent back to the factory after two shots for repair. They should not misfire. They should not jam shut after firing and have to be broken open over a knee. They should shoot to the sights and be regulated properly. This two shots on a target somewhere within 5 inches of the center don't cut it. Regulation target should have a minimum of 6 shots in them to make sure those first two weren't an accident. They should not have to be worked on to get them to shoot. You should not have to put different front sights on them or knock the rear sight way off center to sight them in.

A gun that costs $5000 to $30000 should work for a life time! How much do you have to pay to get one built right the firs time? I'd love to own a Holland & Holland and for all the other doubles I've bought over the years I could have owned several Royals. I wonder if new H&Hs leave the factory perfect? I'm not going to pay $150000 or more to find out.

Again I want to say that all but one of the dealers has bent over backwards to make things right and I have no issues with those guys.

Oh and I know I'm not the only one having issues. I can't count how many people have called or emailed me asking what to do about problems they are having with new doubles.

Yes I have some wonderful doubles and hope my problems are solved now. I don't plan on buying another without a written contract proving the gun is without defects before its shipped to me.
OK I've bought my last double.

Sam

Sam, would you be kind enough to email me the Model and the ser. # of the rifle you mention.
searcy@ccis.com or bls.doubles@gmail.com
Thanks
Butch

07 October 2013, 21:13

PSmith

I have owned five doubles so far with a sixth on the way: new Blaser, new Krieghoff, used Merkel, new VC and a couple of W. J. Jefferys.

The .470 Blaser's left barrel shot about 8 to 10 inches high and to the left of the right barrel. After the factory gunsmith worked on it for three weeks, he got it down to about 5 inches.

The .470 K-Gun had no issues and was very accurate. I shot it a lot.

The .500 Merkel had no issues.

The .450 VC I did not get a chance to shoot; it sure was nice though.

The .500 WJJ had no issues, probably ironed out in the over 100 years since it left the factory.

Looking forward to the next WJ Jeffery.

07 October 2013, 21:58

srose

Butch, I no longer own that gun but I will see if I can find the serial number for you. I had this gun back around 2003.

Sam

07 October 2013, 23:23

srose

As far as pre WWII English doubles I agree that they are really well made guns. I have one Army Navy 450-400 that I love. I have several earlier BPE guns that the workmanship is fantastic. MJines said if cost were about the same he would pick a Pre WWII gun. Well Duh! Finding a good pre WWII double in a larger nitro caliber isn't all that easy and certainly they are not is the same price range as new modern made guns. I searched for years trying to find a reasonably priced big bore English nitro gun but everyone that I found had been buggered with or was in bad mechanical shape. Either off face or bad bores. I almost bought an English 577 recently but after having gun checked out it turned out to have been reproofed and was originally a BPE gun. I did not want a reproofed gun. Oh and the original proofs had been covered up to try and fool someone. Anyway I think most modern double makers are doing a fair job but they are letting too many get buy that aren't right.
I want to thank those people that have emailed and sent PMs about their problems even if they wish not to post them. It has been very interesting to hear the stories of woes! So I'm not the only unlucky one!

Sam

07 October 2013, 23:51

MJines

Less "duh" than you might think. I am sure there are those that given the choice between a new WR double and a pre-WWII used WR double, would take the former price being equal. Everyday people buy new Heyms when they could buy a used English double for roughly the same price.

08 October 2013, 00:01

srose

Mike,

Find me a WR pre WWII 577 for under $25000 that is in perfect working order. HA HA

Sam

08 October 2013, 00:14

Huvius

I believe that double rifles made pre-war were generally of a better quality than those made today too.
One very good reason is that the logistics of returning a gun for repair would have been prohibitively expensive and time consuming.
The gun HAD to be right before it left the factory. Often, the client's life really did depend on it!
Also, if I were buying a bespoke H&H, I would be insuring that it was correct at the shooting ground before taking delivery.

08 October 2013, 00:28

Dutch44

My experience is only with pre-war English doubles. I have also found that the hammer rifles to be more accurate than hammer-less having owned about 6 of each. Just my limited experience. But I do love those hammer rifles.

Dutch

08 October 2013, 05:29

nickh

Interesting take on pre war vs current production re English doubles. I am visiting the WR factory in BIrmingham next month to discuss a drop lock in 500 or 577. I will spend a full day on site and look through the factory production facility and observe the artisans in action.
I have done the same in ITaly several years ago when I was looking at some fine game guns.
Piotti factory was a standout! A small room under the main house with 4 brothers producing wonderful doubles the old way,, mostly by hand. Total annual production I think Emmanuel said was well short of 100 guns. I do recall him saying they did supply some actions to H&H in London.
I beleive that the WR produces most parts for there doubles "in house" which is what attracts me to them, as well as the unique drop lock action, simply gorgeous!,
If I do go ahead, I would be at the factory to observe regulation / finish etc before accepting final delivery.
Build time is approx 2 years depending one engraving etc.

Cheers Nick

08 October 2013, 05:56

srose

Go for it Nick! That sounds like the way to go about it.

08 October 2013, 06:03

CCMDoc

What was the expected build time and yearly production rate of the respected and desirable pre-WWII big bore doubles?

Ours is a society demanding instant gratification. I wonder if the effort to meet that demand is a contributor if not cause of some of the issues Sam and others have experienced.

That is not an excuse because as Sam stated - for this kind of money it should be perfect. Every time.

And if production rates and build time are similar now as then, the concept holds no water whatsoever.

08 October 2013, 06:19

505G

"Ours is a society demanding instant gratification. I wonder if the effort to meet that demand is a contributor if not cause of some of the issues Sam and others have experienced."

Well, in the case of Sabatti, yes it was
because they cut corners to satisfy Cabelas
demands instead of standing up to them.

And by the looks of it, Cabelas are going
to drop Sabatti's so where does that leave
Sabatti now - or a new Distributor ?

In regards to the other makes, maybe.

08 October 2013, 06:41

DuggaBoye

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I would just like to toss out a question here. Has anyone ever had trouble with a Krieghoff double?

Yes-
some of the early guns doubled -
were brought back for service and a trigger "fix" applied

08 October 2013, 07:12

Grenadier

quote:
Originally posted by 465H&H:
Butch Searcy had a very red face over this incident. When I received my new 470 Deluxe Grade it had no front sight!

465H&H

But surely it was regulated.

08 October 2013, 12:13

Nakihunter

quote:
OK I've bought my last double.

Really sam!

BTW the only double that you had no problems with is still wanting to come to me! But you wont let her go! Yeh - your one & only British DR!

May be you should just get yourself a Wesley Richards!

08 October 2013, 15:16

srose

Nakihunter,

Yep I don't think I'm going to buy another. I have two favorites now and the rest are collecting dust. Including your gun. May part with it yet. That isn't the only British double I have either. You just couldn't see past the one in your hands.

Sam

08 October 2013, 20:49

465H&H

quote:
Originally posted by Grenadier:
quote:
Originally posted by 465H&H:
Butch Searcy had a very red face over this incident. When I received my new 470 Deluxe Grade it had no front sight!

465H&H
But surely it was regulated.

Yes, it was wonderfully well regulated. I fired two CEB #13s and two Woodleigh 500 softs from right and left barrels. I covered the four holes completely with a quarter!!!

465H&H

08 October 2013, 21:21

shootaway

Krieger says barrels today are made better than ever.There is certainly the potential today to make rifles better than ever-people could also be buying doubles today more than ever! Could we be living in the golden age and not know it?

08 October 2013, 21:48

505G

Shootaway

It doesn't matter if you have two tackholer barrels (assuming they were installed on a bolt gun).

When put together on a double rifle, it only matters how the Double rifle was regulated.

And big bore doubles are pretty forgiving anyway, so many other variations in the shooting off them anyway.

09 October 2013, 02:07

jorge

quote:
Originally posted by 505G:
Shootaway

It doesn't matter if you have two tackholer barrels (assuming they were installed on a bolt gun).

When put together on a double rifle, it only matters how the Double rifle was regulated.

And big bore doubles are pretty forgiving anyway, so many other variations in the shooting off them anyway.

Unless you get the crowd from Sesame Street and lots of pictures with colors, good luck explaining regulation to shitforbrains. He needs instructions on how to lay sod for chrissakes.. (HINT: Green side up)

09 October 2013, 05:48

Nakihunter

Sam

Aaahh! You are going to part with now! My heart is jumping with joy!

Oh .. BTW I was referring to nitros only. Of course I remember your BPEs.

Are you joining me next Sept in the Omay? I am sending you an email.

quote:
Originally posted by srose:
Nakihunter,

Yep I don't think I'm going to buy another. I have two favorites now and the rest are collecting dust. Including your gun. May part with it yet. That isn't the only British double I have either. You just couldn't see past the one in your hands.

Sam

09 October 2013, 06:15

srose

Nakihunter,

We'll see!

Sam

10 October 2013, 22:34

D R Hunter

This thread is enough to make a guy "swear
off" doubles before he's ever had one!!!

11 October 2013, 03:56

PD999

11 October 2013, 04:50

Peter

D R Hunter, did you see my post?

PS. My guns are a K gun in 500/416, a Blaser S2 in 500NE and a M K Owen in 450NE. All have been maligned on this forum for various reasons!!! However, they do shoot!

Peter.

11 October 2013, 11:16

tankhunter

''Only accurate double rifles are interesting ''

11 October 2013, 21:04

Todd Williams

quote:
Originally posted by D R Hunter:
This thread is enough to make a guy "swear
off" doubles before he's ever had one!!!

No more than women! Both are finicky, temperamental, and often come with a few flaws. But in the end, they are vastly superior to the alternative!

12 October 2013, 02:06

tarawa

I have a few Pedersoli Kodiaks that shoot well enough and thats a good thing because the barrels are supposedly are brazed instead of soldered. Well at least they wont fall apart.

12 October 2013, 03:02

Safari James

I own two Heym doubles today and I have two more being built as I type. Touch wood, I have not had a single issue with either rifle. To that end, I recently returned from a wonderful safari in Zimbabwe with PH Thierry Labat and took 20 out of 25 animals using my Heym 450/400 with iron sights (scoped double rifles make me shudder). The 577 currently in production will get exercised to the fullest extent in Australia during July 2014!

Sorry hear about the issues that others have experienced. At the price point being paid it would seem that better QC would be applied.

13 October 2013, 08:09

Use Enough Gun

Safari James: Just how old are you?

Eventually your eyes will welcome a scoped double rifle or an RMR!

13 October 2013, 12:12

LionHunter

What UEG said!

The young can be so-o-o condescending.

13 October 2013, 22:12

Dave Bush

quote:
Originally posted by srose:
I know I'm probably going to upset some people with this thread but I've had my bate of it. First thing I want to say is that every double I've had problems with the dealer that sold them to me did everything they could to make it right. That is except Cabelas.

OK lets see where to start. I have purchased quite a few doubles new from dealers both factory specs and custom made for me. Just about every manufacturer that I have purchased has had problems. Some issues were small and some were large. Some were cosmetic and some were down right dangerous.

Here are some of the issues I've had.

Searcy 470 I bought from an individual had barrels fall apart after 8 shots. Called Butch and he took gun back fixed it and sent it back to me at no cost. 8 shots later barrels came apart again, sent it back and Butch fixed it right this time and gun is still shooting well. Again at no cost to me. That's customer service.

Verney Carron 577 had triggers lock up after first two shots. Dealer offered to send to gunsmith but I didn't have time to wait so I disassembled the gun and fixed it. The same gun later started spewing rust and salts out between the ribs. Dealer sent it back to factory for repair and 8 months later I got gun back and was unhappy with to results so I had them make me a new gun. Took 8 months to get that one.

Sabatti 500 shot really well and I was very pleased with it. Bragged on it and shot it over 1000 times them the ribs separated in several places. Poor solder or glue joints, that's right looked more like glue than solder.

Sam

Now please everyone don't kill the messenger but in the instances where you had trouble with barrel separation, could it have been the monometal bullets?

13 October 2013, 22:30

srose

Dave,

Not sure, one of the guns I never fired even a solid of anykind out of and the other had something like 1000 rounds thru it of all types. With all the tests I think heat and poor solder has more to do with it than the bullet.

Sam

14 October 2013, 01:50

Dr L. S. Wirthlin

In the early 90's I had a Heym 470 and tried to work up loads using the old "X" bullet. After a few shots, silver solder leaked into the breech and the rib needed to be re soldered. I was impressed it might br the bullet and stopped using the "x" bullet. Traded this double for a H&H (plus a little green).

14 October 2013, 02:23

BLS

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Bush:
quote:
Originally posted by srose:
I know I'm probably going to upset some people with this thread but I've had my bate of it. First thing I want to say is that every double I've had problems with the dealer that sold them to me did everything they could to make it right. That is except Cabelas.

OK lets see where to start. I have purchased quite a few doubles new from dealers both factory specs and custom made for me. Just about every manufacturer that I have purchased has had problems. Some issues were small and some were large. Some were cosmetic and some were down right dangerous.

Here are some of the issues I've had.

Searcy 470 I bought from an individual had barrels fall apart after 8 shots. Called Butch and he took gun back fixed it and sent it back to me at no cost. 8 shots later barrels came apart again, sent it back and Butch fixed it right this time and gun is still shooting well. Again at no cost to me. That's customer service.

Verney Carron 577 had triggers lock up after first two shots. Dealer offered to send to gunsmith but I didn't have time to wait so I disassembled the gun and fixed it. The same gun later started spewing rust and salts out between the ribs. Dealer sent it back to factory for repair and 8 months later I got gun back and was unhappy with to results so I had them make me a new gun. Took 8 months to get that one.

Sabatti 500 shot really well and I was very pleased with it. Bragged on it and shot it over 1000 times them the ribs separated in several places. Poor solder or glue joints, that's right looked more like glue than solder.

Sam

Now please everyone don't kill the messenger but in the instances where you had trouble with barrel separation, could it have been the monometal bullets?

Dave, I won't kill you but I will state that the barrels didn't come apart, a rib popped loose, that's not apart. And not in 37 years has a monometal bullet caused a problem.