Excellent post Mike!
Sadly it won't change the behavior of the horn hunters here that think you have to have some mathematical formula to kill a animal ethically when they take their unethical shots, usually on a rapidly departing animal..

I'll second that, Great post Mike.

I'll never understand why some think its feasible to dictate their moral and ethic beliefs as if its law. It just doesn't work. Even the government's attempt to do the same thing with the two concepts does not work.

I must admit I've never used a 223 on deer since I have several other calibers I can use. I did find some interesting reading on the subject. I purchased a book called Rifle Bullets for the Hunter. It's basically a book that details bullet performance from several writers that test them in a variety of mediums.

Richard Mann wrote the chapter on deer bullets. He states at one time, he only owned a 223 and was fascinated with the terminal performance he experienced on whitetails.

I found this particular piece from the chapter interesting.

"Don't misconstrue this to mean .22 centerfires are the "best choice" for deer or similar sized animals. However, in most cases, given a balanced bullet and impact velocities higher than 2500 feet per second, it is every bit as effective as a 30-30 Winchester or any 150 grain .30 caliber bullet impacting at about 2400 feet per second of less. Extensive bullet testing in a variety of mediums and investigative, post-mortem examinations conducted on a bunch of deer shot with both .224 and .308 caliber bullets supports this."

He does say the above is based on premium, balanced bullets like the 53 TSX, 50 Trophy bonded bear claw, 60 grain partition, and 75 grain Scirocco 2.

Like I said, I have no first hand experience but thought I would pass this on.

" " Indeed.

Which of two varmint cartridges is 'best' for deer? Goodness. Not that it can't be done, it can, but that doesn't make varmint cartridges a good choice. Karamojo Bell killed a LOT of elephants with a 7x57 but that doesn't make the 7x57 an elephant cartridge.

It's been put up as a silly 'strawman' idea many times but I've never heard any hunter actually suggest that if a cartridge is "powerful enough" then bullet placement won't matter; even the dumbest of us knows better than that.

Havent read any of this but here's my

If you need to go past 3300fps to kill something properly then you need to switch to a larger caliber

FYI, a .223 loaded with a 63gr Barnes TSX isn't a varmint cartridge and it doesn't need to get anywhere near 3300FPS to do it's job on whitetail.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
FYI, a .223 loaded with a 63gr Barnes TSX isn't a varmint cartridge and it doesn't need to get anywhere near 3300FPS to do it's job on whitetail.

Terry

Yes sir and an elephant can be killed with a 22LR.
But then again the smaller the bullet the smaller margain for error, or not?
A small bullet can expand but a large bullet can never get smaller.

quote:

Originally posted by The Dane:

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
FYI, a .223 loaded with a 63gr Barnes TSX isn't a varmint cartridge and it doesn't need to get anywhere near 3300FPS to do it's job on whitetail.

Terry

Yes sir and an elephant can be killed with a 22LR.
But then again the smaller the bullet the smaller margain for error, or not?
A small bullet can expand but a large bullet can never get smaller.

Your comparison is unworldly and not even close.

I see you are in Denmark, how many whitetail deer have you killed in the south eastern United States?

The average doe here weighs around 75lbs, it doesn't exactly require a massive cartridge to do the job. Its kind of like killing a moose with a 6.5x55.

quote:

Originally posted by The Dane:

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
FYI, a .223 loaded with a 63gr Barnes TSX isn't a varmint cartridge and it doesn't need to get anywhere near 3300FPS to do it's job on whitetail.

Terry

Yes sir and an elephant can be killed with a 22LR.
But then again the smaller the bullet the smaller margain for error, or not?
A small bullet can expand but a large bullet can never get smaller.

If we were talking about hunting elephants your comments would be relevant but we aren't. You should try harder to stay on topic. We aren't talking about elephants or varmint cartridges. A larger caliber doesn't make up for poor shooting skills. A deer that's been gut shot with a .308 is no better or worse off than one shot with a .224.

The .223 is very effective on deer when used to it's strengths.

Terry

I wish the 22-250 with its 14" twist barrel would be factory fitted with a faster twist barrel like the 223 Rem (12" twist) or even a bit faster, so 60 grain Nosler Partitions can be used. We tried it this weekend and the grouping grew from a ragged hole of 5 mm's to 40 mm's.

Warrior

An interesting read on this subject is P.O. Ackeley's 2 books on reloading. They are long since out of print and do command a premium even in the down-turned market for out of print books. He was very familiar with small caliber high velocity performance and did a lot of testing for the Military and worked up a lot of data on this combination.

The front part of his books details a lot of his testing and hunting experiences and the majority of the remainder of the book is a lot of hand-loading data for many wildcat and standard calibers. Some of that information is eye opening in that it was published without an oversight by a legal department.

If I recall correctly, one of his favorite calibers was the .17 Javelina that he developed and used on a lot of game.


Rumor also has it that Hotsh#t lists Ackeley as his favorite author !!! Surprise Surprise

All my kids and grandkids killed their first 4 or 5 deer (Mule Deer) with the 222 Remington. I have shot many deer with the 222, 223 and the 22-250 on a ranch in Mexico that my dad leased. they all worked the same..You shoot them behind the shoulder, neck or brain and they usually drop on the spot with and ocassional run up to as much as 50 yards..They normally don't leave a blood trail if they run so thats a minus, but most can track a deer 50 yards without a blood trail I would assume. They are very effective with the 60 gr. Hornady SP or HP and that is the bullet we have used for years..They expand and don't blow up very often.

you just have to use good common since when hunting with these small calibers, keep the range short and place the bullet properly..if you cannot do that then the 22s are not for you.

One of my favorite calibers for deer and antelope here in Idaho is my 6x45 carbine that I built on a L-461 Sako action..Witha 75 gr. Barnes X (now discontinued) or a GS Customs 75 gr. HP it will kill a deer or Antelope quite well as far as a .243 will or up to 250-300 yards. It will almost always give you and exit hole with those monolithics, even with a lot of angle but not on a going away shot, but it will get up into the heart lung area...It is very popular in Africa these days for plainsgame, but they use the 100 gr. bullet at about 2660 to 2700 FPS..I like the 75 gr. best.

quote:

Originally posted by marshmandan:
Threads like this are precisely why I almost never look at this site anymore, let alone post. People blast someone else for doing something they don't feel is appropriate and more than likely something they have no first hand experience with. What a bunch of BS.

So True.

I am always amazed at how many people will so loudly protest others experiences. If you don't agree with someones choice it's ok to disagree. Or even agree to disagree, but to make statements on subjects when you have no experience to draw from proves nothing but ignorance.

I think some of you are incredibly disillusioned about bullet performance. The .223, or .22-250 will work with the appropriate bullets on deer quite well. I can also tell you I saw a nice mule deer taken with a TAC20 at 235 yards with one shot, on the ground within a few seconds. Think about that one. A TAC20 shooting a 40gr. bullet on Mule Deer at over 200 yards.

The link to the pictures on 24hourcampfire are similar to what I've seen.That damage is certainly leathal.

One thing I think should be thrown around is why things like using a .223 for lots more than tiny vermin is such a surprize? Eskimos hunt lots of stuff with .223s and .30-30s that many here would profess can't be successfully done. Why? How can they continue to use such ill performing cartidges with such consistant results?

How many have done true penetration comparisons? How many deer have people shot with each cartridge? each weight bullet? If you hunt and are 100% successful every year and manage enough tags to get several a year it would still take many years to research one caliber would it not?

Lots of hot air and estrogen flying around in this thread!

Wife took her last 2 deer with a 223 with 60gr partitions. They were both one shot kills, the first was DRT and the other ran 50 FEET. Compare this to my brother and his 30-06, 3 shot, 3 hits, no shoulder meat left and the deer still ran 150 Yards. There is a lot of talk about the 223 and wounding game, I would bet money that the 30-06 is responsible for more wounded deer than any other caliber. #1 reason why I chose the 223 for my wife was cost and recoil. Recoil is non existent so she can shoot all day and ammo is very cheap. What this equates to is gaining experience with the rife, and being able to shoot proficiently. So many hunters carrying larger calibers dont pull out their rifles until hunting season, and then only shoot a few rounds to sight in.

In short, those that bash the 223 for DEER have either never tried it, use the wrong bullet, or are not competent riflemen.

So putting a bullet with plenty of energy for the job into the ribs of a deer isn't right? I have had 60gr. Hornady HP's exit on deer with broadside hits. I use the 22-250 as a meat rifle so I shoot the deer in the ribs or the base of the neck and deer just drop for me. I had the same experience using the 223 for the same work but the 22-250 is the better round for it.

Just an update on " Terminal Bullet Performance ".








" Trauma to medium was nearly non existent from the Nosler, which surprised me a bit, just a tiny hole with pieces from beginning to end at 6 inches. The Barnes gave a bit more trauma than the Nosler, but not as much as the BBW #13 NonCon.
This concludes my "TINY-ITTY-BITTY Big Bore" report, we will now move to something a bit more, entertaining!
Michael " http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/183

PAPI

Papi

NICE!!! This is what modern, big game bullets in the .223 are capable of, certainly deer worthy. The problem with small bore cartridges that serve a dual purpose is a lot of hunters have used varmint bullets for big game hunting, had total failure, then condem the cartridge when in reality they are idiots.

In the east most deer are shot under 100yds, certainly .223 territory. I tested the 62gr Rem core-lokt ultra in wet news print and it retained 100% of its weight and opened up wide. Now to use it on deer when i get the chance and i have no doubts of the outcome....

quote:

My views are again, if you can put the right bullet where it needs to be, the caliber doesn't matter.

MKE,

You wrote the above.

In my experience your thinking is narrow and your conclusions are wrong. Unless of course your mean shooting small tame deer in a pen?

Are you saying that if one follows your advice on the tiny 223 or similar rounds that one should never shoot at moving deer, deer that don't present the best angle for the bullet path?

I believe the 22-25- is better than 223. I own both and have tested different bullets. In my opinion you need to get a larger caliber. In Kansas the smallest rifle for deer is 243. There must be a good reason for that ruling. I know you can kill deer with both calibers. But ETHICS play a big part in hunting for me and my friends.

If all I had was a 223, I would use it. I am fortunate to own several rifles in larger calibers so I see no point in using my 223 on deer.

I'm not condemning anyone for doing it, I just wouldn't reach over my 257R, 6.5x55 or 7mm-08 in the safe and grab the 223 for a deer hunt.

Many states have "minimum" caliber requirements but I don't think this is as effective as establishing minimum energy requirements. A 7mm TCU is a pipsqueek of a round and meets the minimum requirements, but would probably not be any more effective than it's parent cartridge.
The bottom line is we should all make an effort to make clean one shot kills with whatever we are using. So if you hunt with sharp sticks, bullets, round balls, or anything including a club, you should become proficient with your choice of tool in order to meet this self imposed limitation.
I think people who are members here are by far more interested in the above mentioned interests than many who go out "hunting". Unfortunately the "average" deer hunter is unpracticed, unknowlegable, and ill equipped in many regards.
A friend of mine is a gamewarden and can tell you stories for hours about what he has seen first hand. The shooting out the truck window, decoys set up off the road to catch poachers that have to be moved closer because the road-hunters aren't seeing it, and the pickups full of "hunters" driving around with everyones gun loaded, all of them shooting at the same stuff, etc. The sad thing is that self policing isn't enough as these types have no desire to be looked upon as respectable gentlemen.

No matter what implement one chooses to use it will have limitations of effectiveness directly dependant on the users ability. Be it 50 yards with a bow, 80 with a muzzleloader, 600 with a rifle, 30 with a pistol,.... it all will depend on the loose nut behind the trigger. Some may have to limit themselves to shorter distances to be effective.
I don't see much difference in how leathal different calibers are if the shot are compared similarily. What I do see quite a bit is that many shooters shoot a mild cartridge much better than the bigger ones. So these mild ones would actually be a better choice for them because they'd hit well with it.
Shooting a .300 MagnumAnything at deer won't kill them more deader just because of caliber. A bad hit in the paunch with a huge gun will kill a deer in the same way shooting a Rock Chuck in the guts with a .22-250 does. The impact upsets lots of stuff. Did it work? Yes. Should we all be using a .425 Express? Maybe a .50 BMG?
Would a well placed shot with a smaller caliber have killed just as effectively? Possibly with better overall results, like less bloodshot meat? Deffinately.

The arguments on here are usually amusing. Sometimes though, the things that are believed in are disturbing.

quote:

NICE!!! This is what modern, big game bullets in the .223 are capable of, certainly deer worthy. The problem with small bore cartridges that serve a dual purpose is a lot of hunters have used varmint bullets for big game hunting, had total failure, then condem the cartridge when in reality they are idiots.

Just some additional info to ponder over !!

quote:

...Now do not forget either, that it has been determined, and proven from great deal of study over the years that a solid tested in my test medium here will penetrate on average 35% more in animal tissue, since in most cases it is less dense than the test medium. Softs, expanding and NonCons will be from 75%-80% to 100% deeper penetration on animal tissue than in this test medium... Michael

http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/8521034161/p/1

Now, lets see : Tested in the " LAB ", and then " Field Tested " on Live Game ...

Deeper Penetration , Better Bullets ,HMMMMM !!
What's left to debate or guess over .... ?

PAPI

After years of cajolling I finally talked my late wife into going deer hunting with me. She was 5' tall and maybe 110lbs and terribly afraid of anything bigger than her 223 Ruger No.3. Was finally convinced it was ok after my son made her some targets from old cutting edges off a motor grader. Military ammo punched neat 1/2" holes in it. I bought some Winchester 64gr Power Point ammo and off we went. Never got a shot at a deer but as she said afterwards she didn't get a shot at Bambi but she sure killed Thumper. She did too. When I was in gunsmith school I had a 228 Ackley Magnum that I bought from him. It was terribly accurate and he also had a 224 Belted Express that I really wanted. He told me that at that time the Colo Game and Fish used the 228 as it bypassed the minimum .224 bullet diameter for big game. Don't know how true that is or was but while I never killed a deer with it it was sudden death on coyotes. This was in the early 50's and he had just moved to SLCI and I drove over to meet him. Bought the rifle ,dies and a bunch of Barnes bullets from him. There was considerable interest in small high velocity in those days for big game. Ackley said elk had been easily taken with the 228 Magnum. That particular case was formed from 7x57 brass. The dies were RCBS. Sold them with the rifle several years later. Always longed for that belted express though. That would have just been a sexy case.

I find it interesting in these .22 centerfire deer threads that I never seem to see posts from people who tried using .22 centerfire cartridges and failed to cleanly take deer or at the bear minimum had worse troubles than one might have with any other caliber.

Montana must have a lot of folks that are not internet savvy, so they don't know what you can and can't do...

remember meeting a guys Indian grandma who lived on the Ft Peck Reservation...

she shoots much of her annually consumed meet, from what Mother Nature has grazing near her cabin on the Res...

annually she takes several antelope, deer and even elk and did it all off her front porch, when she saw them out the window..

she was about 5 ft tall and weighed about 90 lbs or less...for 30 something years ( this was about around 2000) she had only owned one rifle...that was chambered in a 22.250..

she was never told it wouldn't kill something edible... so she just went out and used what she could shoot game animals with on the Res..

tribal officials never seemed overly concerned about her being undergunned...

tribal officials also weren't out dispatching wounded game animals near her cabin neither...

guess she never knew how inadequate a 22.250 was...or the whatever brand of factory ammo her kids or grandkids might have supplied her with...

I have never had a .223 but have shot deer with 22-250,243,6mm,30-30 and 30-06.There was nothing wrong with the 22-250 but I would not shoot anymore than 175-200 yds with it.As others have said its all about shot placement.I know guys that have wounded and lost deer with 300 caliber rifles.Just bad shot placement

I've lost deer with a 300 Win Mag, that had excellent shot placement at 100 yds...

the bullet passed thru before it had a chance to open up was the explanation I got from the bullet manufacturer...

so that doesn't mean the 300 Win Mag is a bad deer rig....but it does mean that one has to carefully pick what bullets and what velocity they are going to be hitting game with...

same as with any other caliber...

I agree with you completly seafire, buddy of mine has a 270wsm which is a great shooting gun but have seen the same thing with it, bullet never expanded going through.I have seen my old 6mm make a far bigger exit hole(and mess) than my 30-06 ever has

Using a 223 for deer is not all that uncommon in Texas. Our deer are small in body size and just aren't that hard to kill with good shot placement and proper bullet selection.

It's amusing how passionate these arguments run between the sides. Guys who oppose it think 22 centerfire hunters are out there with varmint bullets wounding deer from all angles. Those who are in favor use the generalizations that everyone else is out there with super magnums wounding deer with poor shot placement because they flinch.

I'm not knocking anyone that uses a 22 centerfire if it's legal in their state. I'm assuming they are responsible hunters just like those that use 300 Ultra Mag for deer. There are poor shots and bad hunters on both sides and everyone in the middle.

I happen to be one of those middle guys. I use calibers from 257R to 7mm-08 for deer. I use appropriate bullets and I can shoot well. I practice. I personally would rather use my 257R for deer than my 223. It's my preference but there are plenty of responsible hunters that use a 223 with great sucess.

You gotta love these examples of one. I knew a little old lady that killed at least one deer each fall. She did it with a 22LR single shot with iron sights.
Is that licenses for every cliff dweller in the US to take to the woods, running and gunning with their 542's???
I also knew several wood hicks in WV that routinely took their deer with .222s and .223s. Model 788s and 340s and such. If someone came into the srore bragging about shooting a deer at xxx distance, they'd just smile and figure he wasn't much of a hunter. Few of them would consider shooting a deer much beyond 50-60 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
I've lost deer with a 300 Win Mag, that had excellent shot placement at 100 yds... the bullet passed thru before it had a chance to open up was the explanation I got from the bullet manufacturer... I've lost deer with a 300 Win Mag, that had excellent shot placement at 100 yds...

the bullet passed thru before it had a chance to open up was the explanation I got from the bullet manufacturer...

so that doesn't mean the 300 Win Mag is a bad deer rig....but it does mean that one has to carefully pick what bullets and what velocity they are going to be hitting game with...

same as with any other caliber...

I can't believe "Seafire" wrtoe that!

quote:

Originally posted by Conservative Rifleman:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
I've lost deer with a 300 Win Mag, that had excellent shot placement at 100 yds... the bullet passed thru before it had a chance to open up was the explanation I got from the bullet manufacturer... I've lost deer with a 300 Win Mag, that had excellent shot placement at 100 yds...

the bullet passed thru before it had a chance to open up was the explanation I got from the bullet manufacturer...

so that doesn't mean the 300 Win Mag is a bad deer rig....but it does mean that one has to carefully pick what bullets and what velocity they are going to be hitting game with...

same as with any other caliber...

I can't believe "Seafire" wrtoe that!

Why???? roger

quote:

the bullet passed thru before it had a chance to open up was the explanation I got from the bullet manufacturer...

I've experienced this with a Sierra boattail bullet loaded in a Federal premium series of factory loads......never with any other bullet!

quote:

the bullet passed thru before it had a chance to open up was the explanation I got from the bullet manufacturer...

Barnes TSX? I remember when they first came out they suggested to drop the weight a little to keep this from happening.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by Conservative Rifleman:

quote:

My views are again, if you can put the right bullet where it needs to be, the caliber doesn't matter.

MKE,

You wrote the above.

In my experience your thinking is narrow and your conclusions are wrong. Unless of course your mean shooting small tame deer in a pen?

Are you saying that if one follows your advice on the tiny 223 or similar rounds that one should never shoot at moving deer, deer that don't present the best angle for the bullet path?

Conservative Rifleman,

Sorry for not getting back sooner and responding to your question, been a bit busy.

I'm not sure why you figure my thinking is narrow and my conclusions are wrong? IF one is hunting varmints, one should shoot a bullet built for rapid expansion, if one is hunting something bigger use a better constructed bullet which will provide a more controlled expansion, if one is hunting rhino's, cape buffs, or elephant, use a solid for maximum penetration.

I couldn't tell you about shooting penned deer, tiny yes by comparison to some, but certainly not penned. As I live in TX our deer are smaller by comparison to some across the country, I freely admit. This doesn't however change the internal layout of their organs, nor the ability to kill them with a properly placed shot. Yes properly placed might mean waiting for them to give you something broadside which would allow you to slip the bullet in behind the shoulder with minimum chance of hitting a substantial obstruction like the shoulder joint. This is pretty easily done with most center fire calibers, and even cheap optics.

The issue that arises is, a lot of folks feel they cannot, or choose not to, wait for the deer to offer them a good shot. Personally I have been hunting since I was 6yrs old. I'm closing fast on 48 now and during my time in the woods and prairies, yes I have made some VERY bad shots with calibers of bigger diameter and plenty more power than the .223 or similar calibers carry. In doing so I felt, as it seems most who post in these threads do, that the caliber and bullet weight will help drive the bullet through to the vitals, which I personally have found to not always be the case. I have lost deer to calibers up to and including a 300 RUM with 180gr bullets at ranges of less than 200yds. I have also witnessed both feral hogs, which are way more resilient to bullets than deer, and some pretty darn decent deer in the 180# range simple fold up their gear and drop to the shot with several .223 calibers, and plenty of hogs up to 200+ pounds with the tiny .17 Rem. using the Hornady 25gr JHP. I personally only own one firearm chambered in .223 and it's a 14" barreled TC chambered in .223 AI. I haven't shot any deer with it as I use it for culling small critters with Winchester factory 45gr JHP's

I also learned along the way, that "I" don't HAVE to shoot, if I don't get the shot I want, in order to have a VERY respectable and memorable hunt. In fact I hunted CO some years back and had a muley within 20yds of me for close to 30 minutes offering plenty of shots from plenty of angles. I did not shoot him and it actually was the best part of the trip.

Over the past 12 - 15 years I have had more fun getting to the point I COULD shoot the deer I was after only to let them walk, as the hunt was more fun that the kill. In fact I have only taken 4 deer over the past 12 years, and of those one was right before the end of the season and I started off with the bow and finished up with the rifle, not knowing at the time I had completely missed with the arrow.

So anyway, I feel comfortable shooting a slow walking deer who has been calmly walking towards me down a trial or across a pasture with the .223, but not one that is busting full throttle across a pasture or through the woods. But then I would not take that shot even with a bigger caliber.

And yes if the deer doesn't present a proper angle to get the bullet through the vitals, then no, there is no reason to shoot regardless of caliber or bullet composition.

I shoot springboks in SA with the .22-250 with sierra varmintbullets. It works great. A .223 would do the same results I am sure. The springboks I shot was from 252m to 275 meters measured with GPS. The .22-250 is a fine little cartridge. If I one day should a .22-250 it should be able to stabilize 60-70grain bullets atleast.

quote:

Originally posted by Conservative Rifleman:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
I've lost deer with a 300 Win Mag, that had excellent shot placement at 100 yds... the bullet passed thru before it had a chance to open up was the explanation I got from the bullet manufacturer... I've lost deer with a 300 Win Mag, that had excellent shot placement at 100 yds...

the bullet passed thru before it had a chance to open up was the explanation I got from the bullet manufacturer...

so that doesn't mean the 300 Win Mag is a bad deer rig....but it does mean that one has to carefully pick what bullets and what velocity they are going to be hitting game with...

same as with any other caliber...

I can't believe "Seafire" wrtoe that!

Well Seafire didn't believe it when it happened...

deer landed on its nose after the shot, there was blood and deer hair in at least a 3 feet circle...

deer jumped off and shook it off, and headed straight into the swamp that the road bordered..

when I called Sierra and they asked me the load and I told them it was Federal Factory load with a 200 grain Sierra bullet on it... they told me that the bullet was way too tough for distance, even on the largest of deer... it was designed to be an elk bullet...

as far as I am concerned, the explanation verified what had happened...

stayed over night and looked for that deer all the next day and never found it... I am sure it died...

I have never used that bullet again.. If I want to load heavy in a 300 Mag ( which I do) I pick a 220 grain Sierra RN or Hornadys...and run them hot, but they certainly will get the job done...big or small...

quote:

NICE!!! This is what modern, big game bullets in the .223 are capable of, certainly deer worthy. The problem with small bore cartridges that serve a dual purpose is a lot of hunters have used varmint bullets for big game hunting, had total failure, then condem the cartridge when in reality they are idiots.

Out of my 16" .223, I tested two different 60 grain bullets on waterjugs.

The 60gr Nosler Ballistic tip didn't make it through a one quart jug. All I could find was the 11 grain base.

the 60gr Nosler Partition made it to the 9th Gallon Jug. It weighed 45 grains.

It just goes to show you, bullet construction is everything in these small calibers.

Antelope Sniper,
That is the most informative post I've read all day. Thanks

All this boils down to 3 things..keep the range at about 200 yards max, use a tough bullet, place the bullet in the rib cage behind the shoulder and the 22s work just fine...

Those light fast bullets will blow up on shoulders sometimes, they don't leave blood trails very often, so use them in the more open country...

Lke anything else, if you know your stuff, and your mature enough to abide by it, you'll get by just fine with a 223 or 22-250, if not you better use a larger caliber..