quote:

Originally posted by winbag338:
A 223 or 22-250 will kill anything on this planet with the right bullet. Most people still dont realize that shot placement trumps most everything else within reason.

Windbag,
Talk that 223 shot placment trumps trash to a PH when considering a buff, or cat.

In AK it's brown bear, or moose, for which I much prefer shot placement with a 338.

Kill anything on the planet, eh? I suspect it has been done - buff, polar bear, brown bear, lion, etc. I suppose that makes the 223 a DG rifle? It kills deer too, with the right shot placment, so likewise by the same logic, that makes it a deer rifle? By that logic any rifle cartridge qualifies as a deer cartridge, 17 cal, 22LR, 204 Ruger, etc. It's all about shot placment, eh? Everything else can be disregarded?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by winbag338:
A 223 or 22-250 will kill anything on this planet with the right bullet. Most people still dont realize that shot placement trumps most everything else within reason.

Windbag,
Talk that 223 shot placment trumps trash to a PH when considering a buff, or cat.

In AK it's brown bear, or moose, for which I much prefer shot placement with a 338.

KB

quote:

within reason

I guess you missed that part & that this is about taking DEER.
Nobody's posts have said a .224 hit in the same place as a larger caliber will do the same amount of damage, though the difference MAY be slight.
Through the heart with a .224 is a more effective hunting shot than through the liver with a .338
Both will admittedly kill the quarry but the latter will gain you a walk & the animal an unnecessary degree of suffering.

In my penetraion tests with the 223 with 53gr tsx I've got sim/ular penetrfation to the 308 Winwith 150 gr CorLokt spitzers. The extreme violence the tsx's exploded lined up gallon water jugs was simular to the 308.

This topic is not about shooting Cape Buffalo with the 223 vs 22_250 . Its ab out shooting deer . I'vew put 55gr.fmjs thru a blac@k bears skull . It worked .wasn't my prefered choice but all, I had at the moment :this year I hope to kill some black bear with the 223 tsx

I was just picking on the "anything on the planet" fluff, which seems all too often part of the baggage in a 223 discussion. For some, there is no line to cross. It was crossed by using a 223 for something it wasn't designed for in the first place. So, I'm not the one who started talking about other critters besides deer. Deer rifle, bear rifle, make no difference to me - same fluff.

When hunting deer, I use a deer rifle. If I hunted buff, I would use an adequate rifle for that too. Same for bear. Simple.

Seems like those TSXs worked pretty good, eh Gumboot. I've had good results with them in every rifle I've tried them in.

KB

Kablowey--"When hunting deer I use a deer rifle"---Yea we heard about your magnum shooting em from end to end. What a waste of meat. Hell an 18 wheeler will flatten them and ruin the whole thing. Wouldn't that even be better in your books than that magnum?

carpetcrawler,
My buddy who I gave the meat to was commenting last week on how much he enjoyed the deer, especially how tender it was.

Actually, there was very little loss of meat, no more than would be expected with a 270, for example. It's all about shot placment. A shot through the middle - long ways - burns up energy in the gut, and does little to the eating portions (tenderloins excepted).

Of course, I understand how you would have no knowledge of that since you don't hunt with cartridges that can offer real penetration.

After all, your shot placment is important to simply kill the deer, where my shot placment is to avoid excessive meat damage.

KB

The way I look at it. Since a deer cartridge like the 06isn't worth a slip as a brown bear round , and I hunt deer in pretty thick bear country . I'm either going to shoot a deer with something 338 win or larger. Or I will use something like a 223 with a tsx in it and have a hand cannon on my hip. Most deer rounds make a real mess of a deer. Where as a 458 just makes a thumb size hole thru them.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
The way I look at it. Since a deer cartridge like the 06 isn't worth a slip as a brown bear round , and I hunt deer in pretty thick bear country. Most deer rounds make a real mess of a deer. Where as a 458 just makes a thumb size hole thru them.

My 458 is a nice carrying weight, and has a 20" barrel. That's what I mostly did with it in Texas recently - carry it. No hogs sighted. It has been one of the most fun rifles to mess with. I took some reduced loads to TX, 300 gr TTSX at about 2100 fps. Recoil about like a 12 guage with slugs, but a lot more accurate and more range.

It is the kind of rifle that I like so much that it will likely get a lot more use, even for deer, especially on Chichagof Island. I'm having it Dark Gray T coated, and the sights Black T.

KB

"Hey Jake, let's go 'Kabluewy' fishing!"

"Sure Sam! What are they hittin' on?"

"Jeez Jake, don't you know? Everybody knows that! Just start a thread with the words ".223" and "deer" and they'll be jumpin' in the boat!"

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
"Hey Jake, let's go 'Kabluewy' fishing!"

"Sure Sam! What are they hittin' on?"

"Jeez Jake, don't you know? Everybody knows that! Just start a thread with the words ".223" and "deer" and they'll be jumpin' in the boat!"

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
"Hey Jake, let's go 'Kabluewy' fishing!"

"Sure Sam! What are they hittin' on?"

"Jeez Jake, don't you know? Everybody knows that! Just start a thread with the words ".223" and "deer" and they'll be jumpin' in the boat!"

+1

Actually, it's a big job, and a lot of work. Instead of "223 deer" as buzz words, now I try to limit my posts to respond to brilliant stuff within such threads, like "shot placment" and "anything on the planet".



Otherwise normal 223/22-250 banter is just harmless babble among those who enjoy babble.

KB

Gidday Guys,

You are seriously over gunned with a 223, Here we hunt wild bulls with air rifles. Here is the proof



Cal .177 and here is the proof

Oops you can still see the ear tag but what do you expect with canned hunts lol


Happy Hunting

Hamish

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
In my penetraion tests with the 223 with 53gr tsx I've got sim/ular penetrfation to the 308 Winwith 150 gr CorLokt spitzers. The extreme violence the tsx's exploded lined up gallon water jugs was simular to the 308.

I would be interested in more detail about your penetration tests with the TSX. I've used that same bullet out of a 22-250 to shoot deer at some long ranges and never found any of the bullets as penetration was complete.

Seafire has done some interesting experiment with the .223 and some Nosler Balistic Tips when the velocities are down around 2300 to 2500 fps in that the penetration is impressive and improves as the velocity drops.

Mine were pretty UN scientific. Gallon water jugs and spruce logs. The 223 bullets were going 3100~3200 as I remember. 308 Win bullets were going 2600~2700 f p s.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
I would be interested in more detail about your penetration tests with the TSX. I've used that same bullet out of a 22-250 to shoot deer at some long ranges and never found any of the bullets as penetration was complete.

Seafire has done some interesting experiment with the .223 and some Nosler Balistic Tips when the velocities are down around 2300 to 2500 fps in that the penetration is impressive and improves as the velocity drops.

From a 223, at 200 yds, the 53gr TSX has a whopping 538 ft lbs of energy, and 369 ft. lbs at 300 yds. The numbers are slightly higher with the 22-250 vel, but not enough to be significant.

With the fantastic SD of .151, surely that bullet is a penetrator, at 2000fps, when it doesn't open at all.

The two bullets mentioned, 53gr TSX and the Nosler BT, are very different - the BT being very explosive at high vel, but both have very low energy when slowed down. Neither has much to offer at the muzzel.

Anyway, the quotes are just more of teancum's brainless nonsense. Actually, I might as well say that I don't believe a word the man writes because he can't seperate BS from actual.

You guys who enjoy and advocate the use of 223s and 22-250s ought to be all over teancum's long range - penetration BS, which he says like it's the truth and actually means something relevant. I havent seen any of you speaking up and calling it what it is, which sadly means something to me - - that practically all 223/22-250 advocates for deer are in a special catagory of pseudo-hunters.

It's not good enough to me that some of you may be able to get the job done with a 223/22-250, by respecting its limitations, when among your ranks there are a disproportionate number of charlatans, and those few of you who actually know better don't take a stand. It's like someone telling a lie in public, and if no one says anything then a lot of people will believe it's the truth, perhaps mostly the one who said it.

KB

The wood hicks I knew in WV that routinely took deer with .222s and .223s would have fallen on the floor laughing if someone said they took deer at 200 or more yards, even 100 yards with a .222/.223.
Their first (correct) assumption would be that you must not be much of a hunter if you can't get closer than that.
And if you told them a 55gr .224 bullet was "about" the same as a 150gr .308 bullet, they'd have probably swallowed their chaws laughing.

I've actually seen that penetration can increase as velocity drops off in several calibers. It appears to be a simple function of surface area. A bullet that doesn't expand as much has less surface area therefore less resistance. It works with projectiles other than bullets too. Granted, a bullet that does not expand does less tissue damage. Then again, Teancum didn't say anything about tissue damage, he was talking about PENETRATION.


Threads like this are precisely why I almost never look at this site anymore, let alone post. People blast someone else for doing something they don't feel is appropriate and more than likely something they have no first hand experience with. What a bunch of BS.

Not all deer are made of kevlar and weigh 400lbs. Not all deer are hunted int he same manner or environments either. A .22 center fire with a 40gr varmint bullet isn't an ideal deer killer, but then neither is a .30 cal with a hollow point match bullet either.

The bottom line is knowing the limitations on your equipment and your abilities.

I've used both .223 and .22-250 with the following:
63gr Sierra Soft Point
64gr Winchester Soft Point
55gr Remington Soft Point
55gr Winchester Soft Point

and on a more limited basis with a few others and I have never lost a single deer with either caliber. I can say that exit wounds on close shots are unusual, longer ranges will exit on occasion.

I'm not hunting 300lb deer and it wouldn't be my choice if I was. Nor are either my everyday deer rifles, but if I'm meat hunting and have a decent rest I use them regularly.

not mentioned is the 70 grain Speer SMP...

in a world of all sorts of new, super premium super duty super trendy bullets for 22 calibers and hunting game bigger than coyotes...

here we have a bullet Speer has been making since the 1960s... I've taken several deer with this bullet... from a 223 and 22.250...

all were within 200 yds tho, so can't attest to further out there...but they were instant bang flops and there was no question of tissue damage or penetration...

one of the more dramatic kills tho made with a 22 caliber on deer was one buck, with an antler on one side where the other side was broken off..

it was a 250 yd or so shot...

he and another little spike broke out of a clearing ( I think a bear or cougar was in the immediate area as it was in a really isolated location off a forest service road, WAAAY back in the back country)..

they broke out and started to run in my direction when they saw me, and did a 180 and started to take off in the opposite direction..

I was presented with a TX heart shot ( which I don't do) so I aimed over the tail of the larger buck, with the broken antler, aimed over the tail at the neck, with the scope on abot 5 power...

at the shot, the buck did a nose over tail flip and was not moving.. the spike stopped and starred for a second, saw me again and took off into the brush...

the shot took the buck in the neck's spine cleanly... and it came out of his throat, which the only way to describe the exit wound was that it was about the size and shape of an open book...

anyone that has ever taken a shot resulting in hitting the spine, knows what an explosion it can add to internal damage...

but before you go out and pay for a TTSX or TSX or Partition, or Swift bullet, take a look at that old Speer 70 grain SMP...

and if you have an old rifle with an slow twist, like one in 14, you won't be handicapped by an old bullet like the SMP 63gr Sierra or the 70 grain Speer...

they are overlooked but you'll still find them on the shelves..

Samo, samo, someone ask a legitimate question and gets nothing but BS from the geering section.

Nothing much changes, same ol folks spewing the same ol BS it ain't big enough, it ain't this, or that, or the other that "I" use, so it cannot be used with ANY reasonable expectation of success.

Sure am glad I didn't grow up around folks that thought so closed minded.....

Why is it that the same people have a need to express themselves about this? You obviously don't use, it why even waste the bandwidth to respond, other than simply stirring up crap for the person who asked a question? Do you really live in such a shallow world that this is your only outlet?

Just adding fuel to the fire. Either will kill deer and both will wound deer. Every year both scenes are played out across the state of ND, because the caliber requiremnet is 22 center fire or larger, the the 223 seems like some huge magnum compared to a 22 Hornet or a 218 Bee. Personally in the hands of a competent marksman they are lethal, but so many deer "hunters" can't shoot to save there soul let alone hit a deer in a vital spot.

I have never used a .224 caliber rifle for deer hunting but a fellow I worked with used his 22-250 for many years to hunt everything from prairie dogs to deer. It was his only center fire rifle. He saved up and bought a 25-06 and when he went deer hunting he said he was a bit disappointed as he had to track the deer instead of it dropping with the 22-250. I personally would rather use my 25-06 than my .223 but that is just me.

Seafire

I once shot a coyote with a 22-250 at about 100 yards and popped him in the shoulder. He was with 2 others on a dead cow that I came up on and I tried to hit the other 2 runners but only clipped one of them.

He was a gorgeous dog and I decided to tan him up and put him on the wall. When I turned him over to look at the opposite side I saw a hole about the size of a grapefruit. The bullet hit the shoulder going in and fragmented the bone and turned the shards into secondary bone fragments. I learn to shoot for the ribs if I wanted any fur and with some high stepping .223 and 22-250 that was seldom successful. Just too much velocity and expansion.

quote:

but so many deer "hunters" can't shoot to save there soul let alone hit a deer in a vital spot.

+ one on that opinion...

You'll need a 1:8" twist in the .22-250 for heavier bullets or the Barnes 55 grain TTSX bullet, or the 62 grain TTSX. Either in the .22-250 will kill a lowly deer.

Where the .22-250 outshines the .223 Remington is case capacity, longer monolithic copper bullets, which are needed to make the .224" bore adequate for deer, are longer than lead core bullets thus require seating a bit deeper. Otherwise you'll need to set up a dummy cartridge with the bullet of choice set to the COAL that will keep the bullet above the shoulder and still work through the magazine. Once this is determined, have your chamber throat cut for that bullet.

My current project is a .22-250 Ackley Improved, an even better choice for deer, although I will use it on varmints.

From the 29 of Jan. to the 29 of July 22 cal. shot placement.Witnessed 7 cowboys empty there rifles firing as fast as they could load and pull the trigger. The Buck was down hill about 150yds. in a small stand of sparse timber. There was a lot of splinters flying and when the shooting stopped the deer walked slowly behind a mound. Not much was said as the guys got back on their horses. I think adrenaline deminished the thought of shot placement in most of the HUNTERS I've seen.Small bullets just reduce success that much more.
The 22 deer rifle game just is not adequate for the Majority. JMHO roger

You guys might consider reading the " Big Bore Terminal Bullet Performance Thread.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/178

PAPI

quote:

Originally posted by Mke / Tx:
Samo, samo, someone ask a legitimate question and gets nothing but BS from the geering section.

Nothing much changes, same ol folks spewing the same ol BS it ain't big enough, it ain't this, or that, or the other that "I" use, so it cannot be used with ANY reasonable expectation of success.

Sure am glad I didn't grow up around folks that thought so closed minded.....

Why is it that the same people have a need to express themselves about this? You obviously don't use, it why even waste the
bandwidth to respond, other than simply stirring up crap for the person who asked a question? Do you really live in such a shallow world that this is your only outlet?

Well said.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I was just picking on the "anything on the planet" fluff, which seems all too often part of the baggage in a 223 discussion. For some, there is no line to cross. It was crossed by using a 223 for something it wasn't designed for in the first place. So, I'm not the one who started talking about other critters besides deer. Deer rifle, bear rifle, make no difference to me - same fluff.

When hunting deer, I use a deer rifle. If I hunted buff, I would use an adequate rifle for that too. Same for bear. Simple.

Seems like those TSXs worked pretty good, eh Gumboot. I've had good results with them in every rifle I've tried them in.

KB

The number 1 polar bear killer should be fine for deer

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by Mke / Tx:
Samo, samo, someone ask a legitimate question and gets nothing but BS from the geering section.

Nothing much changes, same ol folks spewing the same ol BS it ain't big enough, it ain't this, or that, or the other that "I" use, so it cannot be used with ANY reasonable expectation of success.

Sure am glad I didn't grow up around folks that thought so closed minded.....

Why is it that the same people have a need to express themselves about this? You obviously don't use, it why even waste the
bandwidth to respond, other than simply stirring up crap for the person who asked a question? Do you really live in such a shallow world that this is your only outlet?

Well said.

Terry

Sorry you two feel that way. Off and on for about 4 years I used the 22-250 for mule deer During that time I also had built a 6mm x .270 IMP(Close to a Gibbs).with both rifles bullet placement was important but each failed horribly because of bullet construction. The truly Original Barnes performed well but noting else. This was in the early to late 60s and deer slaying 22 caliber bullets were not common.
a number of poachers I knew used 22LRs, hornets and 222s and such. More than not, wounded deer got away in the twilight.

Sadly There are those ,even on this old thread, who find it easier to demean someone of opposite stand and refer to what they say as rather than try to glean some knowledge from the information gathered and presented.
No one can stop you from doing what you want so by all means continue doing what a fair number of us consider to be macho stunt hunting.
What is there to prove by using a 22 to kill deer rather than something more adequately recognized as a proven deer rile by most ? roger

Posted this once, and will do it again because that horse just isn't dead enough!


An gentleman I know from Ireland uses a 22-250 for deer every year. Head shots, and the deer fall dead.

A good friend of mine, when times were tough, used a <I>.22 Mag</I> on deer. Not legal, but he filled his tag and fed his family with it (I paid for the tag, and he was to proud to tell me he couldn't afford any 30-30 ammo). Also a head shot.

Shot placement is everything.

Joe,

Neither of those rounds are deer cartridges. A deer might suffer too long with the small shallow wound that they make.

Nor are they even legal in some places for that reason.

Shoot all the gun at game that you can shoot well.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by Mke / Tx:
Samo, samo, someone ask a legitimate question and gets nothing but BS from the geering section.

Nothing much changes, same ol folks spewing the same ol BS it ain't big enough, it ain't this, or that, or the other that "I" use, so it cannot be used with ANY reasonable expectation of success.

Sure am glad I didn't grow up around folks that thought so closed minded.....

Why is it that the same people have a need to express themselves about this? You obviously don't use, it why even waste the
bandwidth to respond, other than simply stirring up crap for the person who asked a question? Do you really live in such a shallow world that this is your only outlet?

Well said.

Terry

Sorry you two feel that way. Off and on for about 4 years I used the 22-250 for mule deer During that time I also had built a 6mm x .270 IMP(Close to a Gibbs).with both rifles bullet placement was important but each failed horribly because of bullet construction. The truly Original Barnes performed well but noting else. This was in the early to late 60s and deer slaying 22 caliber bullets were not common.
a number of poachers I knew used 22LRs, hornets and 222s and such. More than not, wounded deer got away in the twilight.

Sadly There are those ,even on this old thread, who find it easier to demean someone of opposite stand and refer to what they say as rather than try to glean some knowledge from the information gathered and presnted.
No one can stop you from doing what you want so by all means continue doing what a fair number of us consider to be macho stunt hunting.
What is there to prove by using a 22 to kill deer rather than something more adequately recognized as a proven deer rile by most ? roger

Your post along with several others just proves MKE/ TX post was spot on. The amount of pure BS that comes from complete ignorance on these forums these days is amazing to read at times.

BTW, my success rate with the cartridge is 100%. With the right bullets the (.223/.22-250) cartridges are very effictive on deer and far from a stunt. Anyone who's actually used the cartridge knows this. A lot has changed with bullet construction since you actually hunted with the cartridge, if you ever did. Maybe it's you that should try to gain a little knowledge for yourself. It's not 1960 anymore.

Of course you felt the need to bring poaching into the conversation because you have no better argument. I would imagine more deer are poached every year with medium bore cartridges than small bore. Next time I talk to my county game warden I'll ask him. Nobody is trying to "prove" anything by hunting with a .223. It's already been proven effective long ago. What are you trying to prove by whining about it constantly and trolling these posts? Your experience is very limited on this subject and it's obvious to most. You consider it a "macho stunt" to kill a deer with a .223, I feel the same way about someone who uses a dangerous game cartridge to achieve the same thing. Do I whine about that?

You'll continue to cry about it and I'll continue to use it with great success

Terry

Both, taped together to make a double for when the deer charges!

TC1, you certainly are a work of art. roger

After 17 years of killing deer with a bow and arrow and a decade in the sporting goods business I'd bet every firearm and piece of hunting equipment I own that there are several times more deer that die a slow death from larger bore rifle wounds or miss placed arrows than are even killed with .22 center fire cartridges. Sheer volume of people hunting would statistically prove that too.

I don't hear anyone bitching about the ethics or morals of bow hunting......

quote:

Originally posted by marshmandan:
After 17 years of killing deer with a bow and arrow and a decade in the sporting goods business I'd bet every firearm and piece of hunting equipment I own that there are several times more deer that die a slow death from larger bore rifle wounds or miss placed arrows than are even killed with .22 center fire cartridges. Sheer volume of people hunting would statistically prove that too.

I don't hear anyone bitching about the ethics or morals of bow hunting......

The noise about bowhunting is coming in 3, 2, 1...........

As a bow-hunter I've taken a lot of animals in the mule deer, elk and bear categories over the years. All of them were recovered and only 2 out of many (50?) required a second arrow. The hardest ones to put down were the bear with the longest run before recovery. Deer and Elk have 20 seconds before they pass out from blood loss if shot in front of the diaphragm. Simple.

Taking deer with the various varmint calibers is much the same type of work. Hit them in front of the diaphragm and they will go down in 20 seconds and in many times DRT. I had to shoot deer twice with a varmint rig and that was actually a .243 with 55 grain loads at 4050 FPS. One was knocked down at impact at around 275 yards but was still alive when I walked up to him and shot him again to finish it off and the other was a mystery of why he did fold the tent immediately.

JMHO and yours may be different.

quote:

Originally posted by PAPI:
You guys might consider reading the " Big Bore Terminal Bullet Performance Thread.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/178

PAPI

checked that out with interest...

I still go back to what I was saying that caught some flak on my assumption that the info was useful for gauging performance on game..

but a 55 grain SP bullet will penetrate 3/8 steel plate at 100 yds, with an MV of 2400 to 2600 fps..

but when the same bullet is fired at the steel plate at 3100 or more FPS, MV... it will just splatter against the steel plate...

and as I concluded those results are reflective on the wrestling of the Bullets integrity/velocity, vs the metallurgical integrity of the steel plate....

and one can conclude.. if the bullet will penetrate at the lower MV, it will definitely do so on a deer or other game...

after that it just becomes a matter of what part of a vital organ you are placing your shot within...

no one is denying that the animal won't die, it is just argued when...

but I maintain, even in the hands of an inexperienced idiot, if the shot goes into the right spot, he has an instantly dead animal..

and the lower MV helps him shoot at that spot more accurately..

so in the hands of a good shot, and one who knows game anatomy, there is no reason a 22 caliber can't kill any game animal in North America.. they keep working on polar bears in the Arctic for a certain reason...

a good shooter with a 22 centerfire is a hell of a lot more lethal than a much bigger caliber in the hands of some nimrod who hasn't a clue what he is doing...

addendum... it is also about shooting the right bullet, but moreso even, understanding the capabilities and parameter of your bullet selected...

I've known guys, who bear both opinions... and they can't figure out why it is so..
" a 180 grain ballistic tip out of a 300 Weatherby is not a good choice for elk up close, but for some reason, it is nothing better on the planet than for elk at 400 to 500 yds..."

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

Sorry you two feel that way. Off and on for about 4 years I used the 22-250 for mule deer During that time I also had built a 6mm x .270 IMP(Close to a Gibbs).with both rifles bullet placement was important but each failed horribly because of bullet construction. The truly Original Barnes performed well but noting else. This was in the early to late 60s and deer slaying 22 caliber bullets were not common.
a number of poachers I knew used 22LRs, hornets and 222s and such. More than not, wounded deer got away in the twilight.

Sadly There are those ,even on this old thread, who find it easier to demean someone of opposite stand and refer to what they say as rather than try to glean some knowledge from the information gathered and presented.
No one can stop you from doing what you want so by all means continue doing what a fair number of us consider to be macho stunt hunting.
What is there to prove by using a 22 to kill deer rather than something more adequately recognized as a proven deer rile by most ? roger

quote:

Originally posted by Conservative Rifleman:
Joe,

Neither of those rounds are deer cartridges. A deer might suffer too long with the small shallow wound that they make.

Nor are they even legal in some places for that reason.

Shoot all the gun at game that you can shoot well.

To be honest I have not used a .223 cal anything to shoot deer with. However, I know for a fact, just like any other caliber, if you use the proper bullet for the job, and you put it in the right place, it will in fact kill deer just as quick and adequately as any other.

This said, just like any other caliber, use the wrong bullet, put in the wrong place, and it will result in a wounded deer which may or may not be recovered.

While I might not have a post count as high as some feel their IQ is, I do have 40+ years worth of putting bullets through critters of all sizes. I have been with people who HAVE used this particular round and others in this caliber, and as mentioned with the proper bullet, they are simply devastating on deer.

It doesn't matter how you want to slice it, there isn't a round out there that will make up for shoddy marksmanship, or proper placement. Folks can tout whatever they want about this, that, or the other, bullet and caliber, but the bottom line is, you have to put the bullet through the vitals for them to work efficiently.

This is a direct quote from one of the states regulations, "The bore size, bullet weight, and velocity are of secondary importance to precise bullet placement in the vital heart-lung area." That pretty much sums it all up in a nutshell one would think.

As for the legality, centerfire .22 cal, is legal to hunt game with in more states than not. Again another point.

I am not a staunch promoter of using ANY caliber, I am however a HUGE promoter of shooting where you should in the first place, and not taking off angled shots that you HOPE will get to the vitals, or taking shots that are simply meant to break the animal down for a finishing shot. I read over and over of folks who post use this, that, or the other bullet, in some particular caliber, so that IF and WHEN they get any shot on an animal they can rest assured that their choice will drop it on the spot. Talk about brash and boasting, nothing could be more from the truth, or a disservice to the animals being hunted. Rather than walk away they will simply shoot it where ever they can hit it, and hope for the best. Slob hunting at it's finest.

My views are again, if you can put the right bullet where it needs to be, the caliber doesn't matter. So I personally would much rather a person show up with a rifle of their choice, and of legal caliber, and be able to put their shots where they call them to go, over being able to spray them onto a paper plate at some given range. Paper plate accuracy might be fine for some, and thats another argument, but it simply doesn't cut it for me. Neither does taking a raking shot, or as it has so widely been mentioned anything resembling a "Texas heart shot". If I cannot put the bullet through the lungs, heart, and one or both shoulders, in the same instance I simply don't shoot. Yes I have walked away from the woods MANY times after seeing remarkable game. I feel just as good about it as I do bragging about them when I put them on the ground. It is the experience over the hunt that matter to me. I don't HAVE to kill something just to be satisfied in the fact I could have.

So as to all your knowledge to be gleaned, save that for someone else. As for the effectiveness of a well constructed .224 caliber bullet, putting a deer of up to 300# on the ground, when it is put through the vitals, there is no argument. It will work, period, whether you feel it should be used or not.

That is all I am saying, it doesn't matter if you FEEL it should be used or not for the purpose, it CAN, and DOES work, and WORKS effectively time and time again. Also just like any caliber bigger, it WILL fail miserably if not used properly.

So instead of bashing one caliber over another, why not concentrate that energy on the folks who THINK that the caliber makes a difference on when and where they can shoot game. Instead focus your energy on post in which folks make statements about a particular caliber or bullet, and being able to shoot from one end to the other of what ever they are hunting, cause they aren't going home empty handed.