This place has became too tame and mild like a geriatrics center. We need a thread that will rile things up, get some flames and tinkling contests going. Some folks favorites might get slammed. Tell which guns and cartridges make no sense to you. Keep in mind they may be big sellers so they will have a big following. I'll start with a few of mine, not in any particular order.
(1) 25-06. The 25-06 really is a dandy round, but why was it needed? We already had the .257 Roberts. Yes, the 25-06 has some velocity on it--but not earth shattering. Recoil and blast wise the 25-06 with 120 grain and the .270 with 130 grain are very close--with the 25-06 possibly being more blasty. Basically, what will a 25-06 do that a .270 doesnt do better? Some may ask what does the .257Roberts do that it's dad the 7x57 doesn't do better and what does the .270 do that the 30-06 doesn't do better.
(2) Bolt action 30-30. Yes you can shoot pointed bullets in it. Danger that those bullets wind up in a lever gun exists. Sorta like keeping a pet rattlesnake. Even so, why not get the .308?
(3) Bolt action .308. .308 is a mighty fine round. But the beauty of the .308 is the short cartridge which works better than long in actions other than bolt. If you aren't going to use that beauty feature and get bolt action--may as well get a 30-06. Savage 99's in lever and my favorite the Win 88---these make sense.

(4) .300 magnums. They are faster than the 30-06, but I don't think game would know it. To me not worth the about 50% again more powder and all the extra blast and recoil. You need bigger than 30-06 you need a bigger bore. In most cases the 30-06 will shoot through an animal and does it matter if you shoot through and bullet travels xx yards or xx+25 yards?

I have others just wanted to stir the pot alittle.

quote:

Tell which guns and cartridges make no sense to you.

There are no Ruger long guns here.....also no Weatherbys and No fu^&ing Savages either!

You won't find any 45-70s either.....

But the all time dumbest cartridge not to be found here is anything ending with "AI"

That ought to rile things up a bit!

Okay .17 caliber anything is a joke. And people who shoot the 22-250... do they still believe the .220 swift is a barrel burner or are they just scared of it. The Swift rules! Also .458 win mag owners are in denial its a wanna-be cartridge a puffed up 45-70

Over my life I have tried to eventually try danged near every rifle cartridge around. Have also tried a heck of a lot of different actions, etc. etc., etc.

The one I haven't even gone near is the whole array of .20"-bore cartridges. I mean, why bother? They are accurate? Great! So what? What small-bore cartridge isn't accurate in a well made rifle? They are fast? So??? Ever hear of the Swift? Also fast, with heavier bullets.

Getting back to your mention of the .308 Winchester....Exactly what advantages does it sport over the 1888 product, the 8x57? Okay, now, what disadvantages? So aren't they about a saw-off?

Guess that brings us around to the point of "Why is anything new ever introduced in any field"?

Seldom is it ever because the new thing is as advantageous as the advent of sliced bread. Usually it is some sort of specialty item for better performance in certain limited circumstances. That's okay with me.

In fact, maybe I SHOULD get/try one of those .20 Vartargs one-a these days...

Alberta Canuck--I been thinking of a .20cal reason being I like .20 cal in air rifles. May not like it in centerfire??

Any hunting rifle that kicks so hard that it needs a muzzle break makes no sense to me. If you need an elk gun and are recoil shy, it makes no sense to me to buy a 338 WM and put a muzzle break on it. I have a friend that did that and I still don't understand why he didn't just shoot a 30-06 or a 280 instead.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Alberta Canuck--I been thinking of a .20cal reason being I like .20 cal in air rifles. May not like it in centerfire??

I suspect you'd probably love it. From everything I hear or read on them, they are accurate, they are fast, you can carry about 7 Jillion rounds in your coat pocket, they have little or no recoil, and they blow P-Dogs all into little, tiny, fluttery pieces (not much mess after a few days of weathering). The bullets aren't so light that any zephyr will blow them around behind you and into your cheek (lower cheek). And so far, they come in mostly rifles that are pretty well built.

I suspect I haven't tried one because I don't need to get addicted to yet another bore-size at this over-ripe age.

We need a thread that will rile things up, get some flames and tinkling contests going. Some folks favorites might get slammed.
===============================================

Well here's one for ya. I know I'm gonna take an a$$ whopping for it , but I have to get it out! Not necessarily a gun but rather the event which is BENCHREST" Damn what a boring no skill event! I mean come on, lock the gun in a vise and shoot! I think I'd rather stick a hot poker up my a$$. O.K. you have to develop loads, calculate the winds and do a little basic math before you pull the trigger. Where is the human factor. In tactical events you have all of the above plus time, freehand / bipod shooting and off-hand calculations (DTT). What I don't get, is why bother with all of the components of a rifle if your shooting BR? Why not just mount the receiver and barrel to a vise? You could probably whip up some pretty interesting rigs that way too. O.K., let me have it!

quote:

Originally posted by WhatThe:
We need a thread that will rile things up, get some flames and tinkling contests going. Some folks favorites might get slammed.
===============================================

Well here's one for ya. I know I'm gonna take an a$$ whopping for it , but I have to get it out! Not necessarily a gun but rather the event which is BENCHREST" Damn what a boring no skill event! I mean come on, lock the gun in a vise and shoot! I think I'd rather stick a hot poker up my a$$. O.K. you have to develop loads, calculate the winds and do a little basic math before you pull the trigger. Where is the human factor. In tactical events you have all of the above plus time, freehand / bipod shooting and off-hand calculations (DTT). What I don't get, is why bother with all of the components of a rifle if your shooting BR? Why not just mount the receiver and barrel to a vise? You could probably whip up some pretty interesting rigs that way too. O.K., let me have it!

Okay, here's MY first hammer. Anyone that thinks benchrest requires no skill obviously knows NOTHING AT ALL about that particular type of shooting. AS IN "NOTHING"!!!

That is not meant to be insulting, and you may know plenty about other shooting sports, but benchrest shooting is a VERY highly skilled discipline.

You don't think so? Go to a benchrest match, ask a competitor there to let you fire his rifle, and compete just once. Let us all know how you do in that sport requiring no skill, please.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
This place has became too tame and mild like a geriatrics center. ...

Hey CarpetMan, You talking about ME???

Lets see, I'll nominate the 270Win The reason for that selection is because I've had to Track more "wounded" Game from people using a 270Win than any other cartridge I've seen used.(No weenie 22cals were used at all.) When you look at the Ballistics available for the 270Win, it makes no rational sense that it would produce more Wounded Game than any other cartridge.

My buddies John(30-30, 30-06 & 30-06) and Don(6mmRem, 25-06 & 270Win) and I have spent a good bit of time trying to figure out "WHY?" that was so. The best answer we came up with, was simply a lack of Practice by the folks who normally carried them. Obviously not a big amount of Recoil and relatively cheap to feed with factory ammo(Fall Sales always had them included). Still doesn't make sense, but that is the way it sorted out over a lot of years.

Second, I'll nominate ANY rifle/owner combination who believes it is a great idea to use a Lead Sled with it(like all of jeffee's shooting). They are only creating a BIGGER mental block that the firearm has WAY TOO MUCH Recoil for them to shoot. The chances of Wounded Game from those combined fiascos is much greater than with the people who actually learn to handle the Recoil and shoot the firearms properly. Pitiful!!!

Okay, here's MY first hammer. Anyone that thinks benchrest requires no skill obviously knows NOTHING AT ALL about that particular type of shooting. AS IN "NOTHING"!!!

That is not meant to be insulting, and you may know plenty about other shooting sports, but benchrest shooting is a VERY highly skilled discipline.

You don't think so? Go to a benchrest match, ask a competitor there to let you fire his rifle, and compete just once. Let us all know how you do in that sport requiring no skill, please.
==============================================

O.K., good enough said, but I have been to a few matches and sorry man it just doesn't tug at me. I will admit that I haven't shot one of those rifles and my ignorance as far as being a participant may do me in on this, but man it just seems like watching grass grow. Sorry. And absolutely no ill will intended!

quote:

(3) Bolt action .308. .308 is a mighty fine round. But the beauty of the .308 is the short cartridge which works better than long in actions other than bolt. If you aren't going to use that beauty feature and get bolt action--may as well get a 30-06. Savage 99's in lever and my favorite the Win 88---these make sense.

(4) .300 magnums. They are faster than the 30-06, but I don't think game would know it. To me not worth the about 50% again more powder and all the extra blast and recoil. You need bigger than 30-06 you need a bigger bore. In most cases the 30-06 will shoot through an animal and does it matter if you shoot through and bullet travels xx yards or xx+25 yards?

Short action .308 makes for a STIFF, accurate rifle. Rem. 700 Police in .308 is what the Army and Marines use as the platform for their sniper rifles.

As the name suggests, it's also what a lot of police use for sniper rifles.

While we're here . . . 30-30 Win. is no where in the the same ballistic class as .308 Win.

.300 Win. Mag. -- out 500 yds, or more with a heavy bullet it works for Rocky Mt. Elk. Long shots, flat trajectories, and energy sufficient to drop the game.

Yeah, I have a .458 Lott, but the trajectory is not flat like the .300 Win. Mag.

You want "stupid" . . . ???

Anything in .17 or .223 caliber -- besides an airgun.

quote:

Okay, here's MY first hammer. Anyone that thinks benchrest requires no skill obviously knows NOTHING AT ALL about that particular type of shooting. AS IN "NOTHING"!!!

There's a lot of engineering entailed in bench shooting, reloading, ballistics, reading wind flags.

You see if you can't get a five shot group of 0.250" at 300 yds.

quote:

Originally posted by duckboat:
Any hunting rifle that kicks so hard that it needs a muzzle break makes no sense to me. If you need an elk gun and are recoil shy, it makes no sense to me to buy a 338 WM and put a muzzle break on it. I have a friend that did that and I still don't understand why he didn't just shoot a 30-06 or a 280 instead.

Agreed. One may save shoulder pain but lose hearing in the process. Not a good trade, in my opinion.

Doubledown,
with respect to your 3 line pedigre, and since your a new member, I'll go easy on ya'
How long and how many seventeens did you load for and shoot.
Seventeens are a bunch of fun,
I own, load for and have been shooting them for years.
17 ackley hornet
17 hebee
17 mach iv
17 fireball
and 17 rem.
Since I've got my 20's, I have sold my 223's my swifts and most of my 22-250's.
Not the dueces, that's another story.
I'd put my tac 20 up against your swift any day.
And the 20 vartarg ain't no slouch either

What I have no use for are the WSSM's in bolt guns and the 338 Federal in any gun
GWB

There's a lot of engineering entailed in bench shooting, reloading, ballistics, reading wind flags.

You see if you can't get a five shot group of 0.250" at 300 yds.
==============================================
I understand that a lot of engineering, ballistics and flag reading come in to play and .250 at 300 yards is more than impressive. But try taking a shot at a 5 inch target within 30 seconds after running up a 50 yard hill and the target is only known to be between 275 and 425 yards, wind blowing and no flags, no rest (only bipod). All that you said about engineering, ballistics etc. also apply here just add the rest and see what takes more skill. I don't think you can even come close. But then again Who am I to say. Again this thread was to heat up a few guys and perhaps I have gone a bit over-board. PLEASE remember that no ill will is intended and I respect any and all types of shooting!

Alberta Canuck---You summed up my situation. At this ripe old age, why get one? I do like the CZ rifle--except the backwards safety. I hear they corrected that?? I just have enough others, cant justify getting one.

What the---You don't like bench rest shooting or watching grass grow---I bet you are a curling fan.

WhatThe -

No ill will intended by me, either. I wouldn't have said it that strongly, except you said you KNEW you were gonna get hammered!

I WILL agree with you that it's about as stimulating as watching cement cure to just watch benchrest matches.

Seriously, though, you should go to another match and ask one of the competitors if anyone there will let you actually shoot a couple of targets with a borrowed rifle. There will be flags everywhere, so you won't need to have those.

(Probably would be nice to volunteer to pay components costs of your shots....likely no one will let you pay anything, but it never hurts to make the offer.)

When you are actually competing, it is a VERY exciting sport...especially when you have a "bug-hole" group of four shots out there and need to put a fifth one dead-center in exactly the same place!

What often happens is that the beginner will fire two or three really nice groups, say, "Hey, that was fun", and then decide it is neat beating all those old-timers and that he'd like to do it some more.

So then he becomes hooked, only to find out he was VERY lucky and putting together those 5-shot groups on demand five times in a row at both 100 & 200 yards can be his equivalent of the eternal quest for the wine-Cup of Christ's last supper.

Best wishes,

AC

Edited to add: BTW one benchrest competitive Class DOES involve mounting a scoped barreled action in what is essentialy a vice which absorbs the recoil and then returns to exactly the same position...sort of an "active" machine-rest. They are called "rail" guns.

And guess what? The guys shooting the light sporter class often outshoot the guys in the rail gun class. Why? Because they can hold as well as the rail gun can, but they can instantly change their point of aim as the wind demands. Now THAT is skill!

Well in my estimation we don't need anything that has WSM, WSSM, RUM or SAUM in the name. We don't need any centerfire cartridge dreamed up by the committees at T/C, Ruger or Hornady. (6.5 Creedmoor, .375 Ruger, 30TC, .300 and .338 Ruger Compact Magnums)

I'm thinking we don't need any 45-70's or cowboy guns for that matter since all the indians were rounded up long ago and you can't even get Bonanza re-runs on tv anymore.

No 17's and once again no 270win or 7mags. We might as well get rid of anything that has to do with a double rifle right now 'cause I can't afford one and hearing all this talk on them just makes me jealous.

quote:

Originally posted by filmit:
We might as well get rid of anything that has to do with a double rifle right now 'cause I can't afford one and hearing all this talk on them just makes me jealous.

Have no fear.....Obama will see to it that every hunter has a Holland and Holland double rifle!

7mm Rem Mag has never tickled my fancy in the least. I know you read the numbers and they are a fine rifle cartridge but I never have warmed up to them and I think its just the hype associated with the cartridge. Never understood why someone would get a 7 mag and buy 175 grain ammo for it and think they are a flat shooting machine when in fact you compare that to a factory 180 grain 30/06 load and you basically have the same thing. I've heard of more game wounded with a 7 mag than any other cartridge ever. I know the round is capable but I think the problem is a lot of guys that buy a 7 mag think the "mag" part will cure all there problems putting game on the ground and the hype only magnifies the problem.

7mm Mag wins the "guns that don't make sense" award hands down in my book, it is a cure to the problem that never existed.

Alberta Canuck

The problem with me being such as spasmodic is that I would probably have to improve just to suck at BR. I mean any type of stress like having to send my next shot through my last shot would do me in! I'll take you up on asking one of BR friends if I can lob a couple down range with his rifle. What the he!!, I'm sure all those that witness the event can use a good laugh! I'm sure it great, just hope I don't get the bug my wife will do the macerina on my huevos!

Now with that said, someone brought up curling. I am a curling fan! That's some fun stuff! I played hockey for about 22 years and I was exposed to curling in Toronto many years ago after a practice. Been pushing and sweeping ever since!

Snellstrom--You trying to tell me you can't hit em anywhere with a 7mm mag and put em down? If you can't guess you better get a .300 mag cause I know they'll put em down hit anywhere, guy working at Wal Mart told me.

One of my friends was ridiculing me for keeping 160 or so sets of dies-- particularly since I have been

whittling down the collection.

I can't seem to part with the dies, as if in some way I still posses the spirit of rifles now gone.

Guess in a way my now mundane calibre roster does somewhat resemble" a geriatric center" --

but-- they get the job done on the muzzle end--and despite all my past wildcat machinations,

I do find the mundane now --interesting somehow.

A 223, 308, 458 cover just about everything my

157 other die sets could offer in the important factors--terminal performance.

Boring ? --perhaps, but simplicity has it's own rewards.

I guess I'm becoming my grandfather in someways--

Beware of the man who shoots one rifle-- He probably shoots it very well.

Curling...I still don't understand how it became an Olympic sport. It's shuffle board on ice. Like anything it takes skill and practice, but to
my mind Olympic athletes are well condtioned machines. Some of the curlers were fat, sweat hogs, who probably put down a dozen Krispy Kremes before hitting the lane. Next they'll have kite flying, horse shoes or some other activity designed for kids or
the elderly.I can see it now, some porker posing with his gold
medal(s) hanging around his neck while holding his broom in on hand and a Big Mac in the other.

The only thing gayer than curling is gays curling.

I dont know the progress of this, but miniature golf is going to become an olympic event. I have bro in law that has won both the U.S. Open and U.S. Masters in miniature golf. These are held in Myrtle Beach, SC. I have been present when he won and having someone you know in it, did make it exciting.

Gidday Guys,
The most nonsensical cartridge has to be the 223.
the 222 was here already and does everyhting the 223 will do in practical terms and it drops deer like flies.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

To me the .318 Westley Richards makes no sense. It is nearly identical to the .30-06 which came out four years before the .318. Okay, it's a tad bigger in diameter and energy but the the 9.3x62 is bigger and better and it was already five years old when the .318 appeared in 1910. If one were to argue that the .318 was needed to fill the gap from .30-06 to the 9.3x62 then we would have to forget about the 8x57. Maybe that is why the .30-06, 8x57, and 9.3x62 prevail compared to the all but dead .318.

quote:

Originally posted by Hamish:
Gidday Guys,
The most nonsensical cartridge has to be the 223.
the 222 was here already and does everyhting the 223 will do in practical terms and it drops deer like flies.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

Be careful Hamish! You're on dangerous ground now!!

Hamish,
Since I have two (had three but sold one) triple deuces, and no 223's,(sold 'em all), does that mean I agree with you 200%?
GWB

quote:

Originally posted by filmit:
The only thing gayer than curling is gays curling.

would have to agree....the gerbels are hiding

quote:

Originally posted by Hamish:
the 222 was here already and does everyhting the 223 will do in practical terms and it drops deer like flies. ...

I know this first part will surprise some of you all, but I actually AGREE with that - as long as the Deer are the same size as the Flies.

Hey Hot Core...would you approve of this:

quote:

Originally posted by BISCUT:

quote:

Originally posted by filmit:
The only thing gayer than curling is gays curling.

would have to agree....the gerbels are hiding

Roger that! I wonder if the reason guys curl is
because they enjoy folks telling them that they
have nice stones. Or perhaps it's because they
get to bounce their stones off the stones of
some other guy.

Seriously, if Savage quit making rifles and the 308 became extinct, the world would be a better place.

Lou,
the only problem with that is that there are so many old accurate savage beaters out there. Maybe you could contact the current administration to do something about that!
GWB

I am not now, nor have I ever been a Bench Rest shooter but what those guys do, they do well. (most of them anyway)

I think they are anal to a fault but you have to be impressed by a guy so dedicated that he will give up coffe and practice firing his rifle between heart beats to get maximum accuracy.