And this includes you Low Wall.

Results (143 votes counted so far):

What is your opinion on the use of the .223 for hunting white tail deer?

49 (34%) I think it is adequate if used within the parameters of its limitations.

4 (3%) I do not believe that the .223 is an adequate cartridge for hunting deer under any conditions.

26 (18%) I don't give a damn either way, if the shooter is satisfied with the results they are getting, that is all that matters.

64 (45%) Even though many deer are killed annually with the .223, I simply believe there are better choices.



Lora does not just hunt white tails, she also hunts feral hogs, and I believe if you will look around many folks that believe a .284 bullet weighing 20 to 30 grains more than a .257 bullet gives better performance than the smaller bullet. Add to that the FACT that .257 Robert's ammunition, from my experience is not as easy to come by, at say Wally World as .7mm-08.

crazyhorse--what would give your poll some validity is how many that voiced an opinion really have ANY experience with it to draw from? In reality their vote would just be a wag. I notice you did fail to answer some of my questions of you, I don't think I missed any of yours to me..

Pray tell what "Questions????" of yours did I "FAIL" to answer?

Please ask again and I will be more than happy to answer.

Which questions? The statements with ? following them.

No Dude, re-state the questions as you asked them, either that or go back thru these 4 pages of BS and actually read my responses, and if you think about it just a little you will see that I answered your questions at least twice.

At No Point, Have I Said That A .223 Can Not/Will Not or Does Not Kill Deer With A Properly Placed Shot, I have Said Over And Over And Over, Add Nauseam, That I Simply Believe The .223 Is NOT The Best Option. No Where have I said it won't work, merely that it is not the best option, IN MY OPINION.

Carpetman1 with his .223.

Crazyhorse--I answered your questions, for example, why do I have a .243? What is my "confidence range? I ask you questions and you don't answer. I know without rereading that you didn't answer as I was looking for a response. Did you have to ask me again? No. You want me to repost them. So here's a question for you --are you rude or do you have reading comprehension problems?
BTW where have I ever said that you said a .223 wont work?

quote:

BTW where have I ever said that you said a .223 wont work?

That is basically what you are saying and you don't even realize it. One of the only actual questions you ever asked was for me to give proof that a deer, shot in the heart with a .223 was not going to die, or something similar to that.

Your missing the whole point. Only 4 people out of 144 have voted that the .223 is NOT ADEQUATE FOR DEER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. I Am Not One Of Those 4 People. You have hung up on the idea that you are going to get me to admit the .223 will kill deer. I have said that it would about 2 dozen times. You have stated several times in this dog and pony show that you don't use a .223 ALL OF THE TIME, that you sometimes or often use a .243.

Have I somehow impuned your honor or integrity? If you are such a stanch supporter of the .223, Why Do You Have A .243? Can you answer that?

Why does my not liking the .243/.25-06/.270/.308 or the .30-06 bother you, even though I openly and honestly admit that I recommend those calibers to folks looking for a hunting rifle?

What about me stating that I also used to believe that inexperienced hunters would be better suited to start off with a .222 or .223 than a larger caliber, then changing my opinion and stating that a .243 would be a better option, bothers you so much?

Crazyhorse---You answered my question without answering it. I asked are you rude or do you have a reading comprehension problem? It is the latter. You also do a very poor job of twisting other peoples words. You should be highly skilled at that by now as much as you try to do it. You also avoid direct questions posed to you. I thought I gave you a very thorough reason as to why I use a .243 and you are still asking the question. Where have I ever said a .223 is all I use? Reversing that question back to you, why does Lora have a .257 if she has a 7mm-08? That question makes as much sense as your questioning my having a .243--even after explaining it to you. You also cast doubts on my integrity as to how I react in the "heat of battle." This was based on your vast study of how your clients react. I asked how many can't field dress a deer after they shoot it? You didn't respond.(reading comprehension?) Somehow I don't think a person that pays you to find them a deer would be at my level. You frequently add a caveat of a .223 in the hands of an experienced hunter. I asked you what is it an experienced hunter do that a kid can't? Can you put English on the shot, perhaps make a slice or a hook or anything else? I have explained to you that you give the kid a good shot and it's pretty much a matter could they hit a basketball under those circumstances. You asked me what is my "confidence range"? I think that is very hypothetical. First off I don't draw a circle around where I'm hunting and if the deer is one inch out of that circle I pass on the shot. Depends on a lot of factors. One would be how close to dark--how much time do I have to look for it? I don't care how big the gun there is always the chance they might run. So I asked you a question which is every bit as hypothetical----when making a left turn how many feet away do you yield or make the turn? Why does it bother me that you don't like certain rounds? It doesn't. I could care less what you use.

What does anyone knowing how to field dress a deer have to do with whether or not a .223 can or can not kill a deer. As some one guiding other hunters for pay, one of my jobs is field dressing and quartering the deer they shoot, either way that is irrelevant top the poll.

Lora does not have a .7mm-08, YET! What does that have to do with the poll about the .223, NOTHING!!! Again you bring up something totally irrelevant to the poll. Your personal opinion of me is just that, your opinion and you are more than welcome to it. I am not rude, I am honest, nothing more. If that is being Rude in your way of viewing things, then you definitely have a problem and may need to seek professional help.

You act like I owe you some form of respect. I have not seen anything you have stated that is worthy of my respect. All I see is someone that for whatever reason can not accept the fact that 97% of the voters in a poll on this site have no real problem with anyone using a .223 but some of them believe there are better options. You seem to be unable to grasp the concept that you have basically won the damn argument.

You keep looking for things to gripe about, instead of understanding that just because people do not agree with you, it does not mean you are right and they are wrong or vice-versa, it just means they don't agree. Don't know how old you are, I am 63, and the way I was raised up is that respect is earned, not given. Maybe you were not raised that way, that is your problem.

I am thru with this one and dealing with you. You want to keep on trolling for Kabluewy, you go right ahead, but your not going to get the agreement over this issue that you are after.

Crazyhorse you sure know how to contradict yourself and fail to see how things are relevant. You insult my integrity that in the "heat of battle" I may do things differently than what I posted. This was based on your vast knowledge of human nature by observing your clients behavior. I asked what is their level of expertise? I asked the field dressing question as a gage of their ability. I consider that very relevant as I was being compared to them. Whether Lora keeps or gets rid of her .257 should she get a 7mm-08 has nothing to do with anything---same as my having a .243---that was my point. You didn't tell me what all trick shots can be accomplished "in the hands of an experienced hunter" that a kid can't do. As I said before when you say something twice it sounds so good to you that it becomes fact. We owe each other no respect. We disagree and you insult my integrity and try and twist my words and I think you are full of it.

Trolling for Kabluey? Nah, he could never be lured in, he's too cunning and clever.

Nothing wrong with a 243. As far as that goes same for the 223 although it wouldn't be my first choice. On deer it does not make a damn bit of difference as long as you place your first shot. Screw that up and it doesn't matter if you have a bigger caliber. You will have a wounded deer to track. Same is true for the 30 cal as well.

quote:

Nothing wrong with a 243. As far as that goes same for the 223 although it wouldn't be my first choice. On deer it does not make a damn bit of difference as long as you place your first shot. Screw that up and it doesn't matter if you have a bigger caliber. You will have a wounded deer to track. Same is true for the 30 cal as well.

The same is true for a .338/.375 or .458 caliber except for one point. Even with no expansion, a .308 or larger caliber is or will leave a larger exit wound.

True but a poorly hit animal can go a long way. Also just because the exit hole is larger does not mean you hit anything vital. I have seen them lay in the creek to get the blood stopped then take off for parts unknown when the hunters finally caught up to them. Also how many times have any of you seen one have no blood trail? Even with the larger hole the skin will shift and or fat to plug the wound. Any bleeding is internal and makes it difficult to track. All I am saying is if it will kill a man it will kill a deer. The issue in all cases is bullet placement not caliber. Does not mean I am going to go after a polar bear with a .22 though.

quote:

True but a poorly hit animal can go a long way.

Yes they can, but so can a properly hit animal, even when hit with a large caliber, and that is from experience.

Also from experience no two deer react exactly the same, even if shot in the exact same place with the exact same caliber. I have seen deer heart shot with a .223 that dropped on the spot, while another deer standing in the same spot, shot with the same gun, same type/manufacture bullet, shot in the heart, run 30 yards or more before piling up.

The one common aspect I see repeating itself in these discussions is that folks don't take into consideration is that deer hunting conditions and methods are not one size fits all across America. Touting any ONE particular caliber as the "Be All-End All", Perfect for All situations, deer killer, just doesn't work.

I seriously doubt that there are that many hunters, regardless of game being hunted, that are not going to stack the deck in their favor any chance they get.

Yes that is one thing for sure we agree on, there is no one right way. there can be several wrong ways as well. The conditions, size of the animal, caliber, hunters skill and shot placement. adrenaline from an agitated animal, and just plain heart all make a difference. Bigger calibers tend to be more forgiving when you F up but not always. Anyone who says there is one right answer is either misled or foolish. I still say that bullet placement within caliber limitations counts for more than extra powder and lead.

Mike Smith my guess would be you have been there done that. Either shot deer with a .224 or have seen it done. Exit diameter has been mentioned and I have lots of questions about that. I've heard that the bullet is pushing liquids (deer 90% liquid) and can't be compressed so it acts like a solid. Heard that liquids are being pulled like the wake on a boat. Heard that skin will stretch way out before it bursts like a balloon. Does seem that solid bullets that don't expand pencil through. Maybe they need to mushroom to give a plunger effect??? I do know I've seen larger exit holes from an expanding .224 than pencil holes from .30 cal that didn't expand. I've seen .30 cal holes around 6 inches. If you took a .30 cal 150 grain bullet and a big hammer and anvil and beat that bullet out to 6 inches, I think it would be too flimsy to cut anything, so I don't think exit hole is totally based on bullet diameter.
Crazyhorse, I musta got a good nights sleep, I agree with a lot of your last post--possibly agree for a different reason than you intended. I fully agree on stacking the deck in the hunters favor. I don't think this is necessarily done by going to a bigger gun, but by being more selective in the shots. It is easy to speculate what a bigger gun would have done, but it is just that speculation. You don't get a chance for a redo to really know.

My deer season is over. Tommorrow is the last day, but I quit hunting to shoot over a week ago. I still go out and look, and try to second guess the hogs. I saw six deer today, but they are safe. My freezer is stuffed.

I took two deer this season, one small buck and one fat doe. But lost count of how many I saw. No really big bucks except a night.

The Grendel in the AR15 was my go-to rifle, and I shot both deer in the neck with it. I suppose that's shot placement. I waited for the perfect shot, and could afford to. Seeing so many deer, as a practical matter I could take one almost any day of choice. It sure was nice to not have to deal with bloodshot meat, or blood trails. DRT.

Perhaps I'll have a report later re hogs, and perhaps I'll have an opportunity to take shots other than neck and see what the Grendel will really do. There are hogs here on the farm and some friends have granted permission to hunt their farms as well. So many hogs, so little time, but these hogs are a lot tougher to hunt, compared to the deer. Apparantly they don't move about during the day, during deer season.

Now that the deer hunters are gone home, I'll have the woods to myself, and I plan on loading up the corn feeder and hopefully drawing some hogs out at dusk.

BTW, Carpetman, did you get a deer this season or just talk about it hypothetically?

KB

KB---I only went out one time this year. Carried my .223 instead of my .243 and didn't see a thing. The .223 scared em all off.

I see, you would rather talk about it than actually get out there.

KB

quote:

I fully agree on stacking the deck in the hunters favor. I don't think this is necessarily done by going to a bigger gun, but by being more selective in the shots.

Agreement is not what T was after Sir, it was the being more selective with shots taken.

The reason why some states don't allow the .223 for deer hunting, in my opinion really has nothing to do with the limitations of the cartridge, but the limitations of the shooters that really do not have the experience or ability to properly use the .223 within its limitations, Or Within The Limitations Of The SHOOTER.

I have seen too many deer killed with one shot from a .223/.224 cartridge. My only real gripe with those cartridges, is and has been too often they do not produce an exit wound, or at least an exit wound that would leave a decent blood trail.

I have also been involved in tracking sessions where animals had been shot with larger calibers, but due to bullet placement, even though there was a fairly good blood trail for a while, we did not recover the animal.

Was any of that the fault of the caliber, no, it was the fault of the shooter, which in all cases is the weak point in the equation. The rifle/the scope/the cartridge, no matter how good they are, only do the job they are intended to do, if the SHOOTER is able/capable of doing their part.

KB--Rather talk about than get out there. I've said for several years I wont shoot one unless someone else wants it. I started a thread about my great hunt with a .223 that pretty well sums up where I'm at with it. This year some of the folks that usually come down couldn't make it. I put going off until I ran out of time--no big deal.

My point exactly. It is the skill of the shooter 99 percent of the time. The other 1 percent is for all the weird things that go wrong. I have used a 224 to good purpose and can attest to its killing ability. Truthfully though, I prefer the 243 and am much more comfortable with it. There is the real issue. Being comfortable and proficient with your weapon regardless of caliber counts a lot more than anything else. That is of course within the limits of the caliber and shot placement.

quote:

Being comfortable and proficient with your weapon regardless of caliber counts a lot more than anything else.

quote:

That is of course within the limits of the caliber AND the Shooter

To me, that is the real issue.

Spot on Crazyhorse, that covers it all.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

Perhaps I'll have a report later re hogs, and perhaps I'll have an opportunity to take shots other than neck and see what the Grendel will really do.
KB

I'm fairly certain the Grendel will do just fine if you put one in the heart/lung region of a hog. 6.5 Grendel/6.8 SPC are pretty interesting rounds for hunting deer/hog sized game with an AR.

Properly hit animals don't get away unless you use the wrong bullet then your dealing with bullet failure not caliber, but caliber gets blamed a lot..

I have seen deer shot with milsurp 06 ammo run a long damn ways, but during WW2 thats all we could get and got it on the black market, so we ground the noses off and sometimes they worked and mostly they tumbled but when one zipped thru the deer usually made some tracks, but we never actually lost one that I know of..

If you tear a hole in the lungs or heart they die, and don't make many tracks, but they can go 100 yards with heart and lungs blown up, and in thick stuff and no blood they could be hard to recover without a good tracker...

quote:

they could be hard to recover without a good tracker...

Thats when you need one of these.. http://www.vonargos.com/final3_017.htm