I think most states have a minimum legal caliber for deer. For Texas, it's a 22 centerfire. Other states dictate a slightly larger caliber in order to eliminate the 22 center fires. This isn't anything new in the states.

I voted for option 4. I can't bring myself to reach over my .257R, 6,5x55, 7-08 or 308 to grab the 223 for a deer hunt but I don't condemn others for doing it.

quote:

Originally posted by Norwegianwoods:
I think this is a dilemma.
As lots of people are not skilled enough with their gun to shoot a deer at 100 yards. Not to talk about 200, 300 yards and longer.
How about shooting at animals running/walking?
And lots of other situations where it demands that the hunter has knowledge, skills and self restrain.

I don't know about Norway, but many States have regs requiring hunter safety training in order to get a hunting license. The classes go into skills and self restraint somewhat. I doubt that many fail to pass. It's probably the best that regulations can do about the human variable.

The other major variables, environment and circumstance cannot really be regulated.

However, laws based on physics are more realistic and likely to have desired results.

I don't condemn others for their choices, but I might condemn them for their behavior.

The 223, especially in the AR, draws those prone to bad behavior as stench does to flies. I know about the saying that it ain't the gun's fault for the crime, but I believe the 223 has done more harm in general, and especially to the rights and image and interests of gun enthusiasts than any other cartridge. IMO, it doesn't belong in the civilian arena.

KB

quote:

I believe the 223 has done more harm in general, and especially to the rights and image and interests of gun enthusiasts than any other cartridge. IMO, it doesn't belong in the civilian arena.

Now there's an interesting perspective. Is the cartridge to blame, or the delivery mechanism? There were plenty of small caliber rounds available before the 223, but were they detrimental? Do you consider this one 'bad' because it came with the AR platform and thus 'spray and pray'? Or is it the combination of AR and high cap mags? Just a curious statement.

Scott---In Texas, rimfires and air rifles not legal, but centerfires any cal are legal, it is not limited to .22cal. Ruger .204, for example, legal as would be a .17 cal.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Now there's an interesting perspective. Is the cartridge to blame, or the delivery mechanism? There were plenty of small caliber rounds available before the 223, but were they detrimental?

The 223 is "special" because of the type of following it draws, especially in the AR.

BTW, I own several ARs, and consider them a fine hunting tool, just that I wouldn't hunt with one in 223.

In fact, I'm heading for the deer stand in a few minutes and taking my AR15 in 6.5 Grendel.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Scott---In Texas, rimfires and air rifles not legal, but centerfires any cal are legal, it is not limited to .22cal. Ruger .204, for example, legal as would be a .17 cal.

Didn't realize that. Perhaps we should start a 17 Hornet on deer thread.

I don't really want to make a judgement as to what anyone uses to hunt anything. On second thought I would make my answer, I really don't care what anyone else uses. In back of my mind is something I have heard all my life (so far 79+ years) and actually read in print many times ' more deer have probably been killed with a .22 LR than any other single caliber' somehow I actually BELIEVE this.

I wonder how much study, if any, that states put into their laws that would ban a .223for example. In all states bows are legal. Would nay sayers here think a bow would be better than a .223? (Nothing against bow hunting) Back during Indian wars when they were equipped with bows I suspect had they been equipped with .223's the results would have been different. Some states where a .223 is not legal a midnight special .25acp would be legal???? One time I went to a city hall meeting where a person wanted to open a bingo hall. One of the business owners in that center was opposed as it would take up parking space. The city hall guys, on the spot and off the top of their heads decided about how many people would be in each car and how many cars and used that number to determine what the capacity of the bingo hall would be. No study, nothing to back it up, strictly arbitrary. I see that same situation here. Many voice their opinion but have never done it nor seen it done.
Professor Kablowey you site laws of physics. There are laws of physics that suggest a bumble bee can't fly. Are you, in your advanced knowledge of physics, perhaps using some of those same laws? Certainly the law of physics that if the terrain is too rough for a golf cart you should not use a .223 would apply.

Funny some think it is not up to task of killing a 100# herbivore, yet fine to shoot a 180# man who will shoot back if not dropped almost immediately.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
Funny some think it is not up to task of killing a 100# herbivore, yet fine to shoot a 180# man who will shoot back if not dropped almost immediately.

4% is funny? -- humm.

Look at the poll results.

KB

While this train wreck is still semi functional, one comment that keeps rearing its head anytime the discussions concerning .223 and its use on deer that needs to be dropped from the whole discussion, is the business about .25acp's being legal while the .223 would not be.

That is totally false. When the regs are set up bullet grain weight and 100 yard energy levels are established and the .25 acp/.32 acp/.17 calibers/.19 and .20 caibers and others Do Not meet either or both of those criteria.

Take the poll for what it is, just peoples opinions. One thing the anti folks need to remember or at least think about, if we, hunters as a group start outlawing certain calibers or designs of rifles for hunting simply because we don't think it is the best option, it will only open the door to further banning's and I do not think any of us really want that to happen.

quote:

. When the regs are set up bullet grain weight and 100 yard energy levels are established and the .25 acp/.32 acp/.17 calibers/.19 and .20 caibers and others Do Not meet either or both of those criteria.

Wis. law on legal deer calibers are very loose any center fire round .22 or bigger are legal.

I loaded a 22hornet 40 gr cast at 1100 and hunted deer with it because I could. One shot 10 yard run dead deer.

In pistols same restriction but the round has to be legal in a rifle and have min 5 inch.
barrel

I always wanted to make a 16.5 inch Contender barrel put a stock on it in 25acp thus having a legal rifle round.

Then find a 25acp pistol put a 5 inch barrel on it and go kill a deer with it.

One because I can

Two it would drive the those who say you need a certain size pistol round to kill deer bonkers.

I know I would kill a deer with one round because I would be very very selective about my shot.

But for general deer hunting I have already stated my choices.

That said one should be able to hunt with any thing you want if you succeed or fail it is because YOU did or didn't do it right.

PD,
it's a good thing we don't live closer together, we think way to much alike not to have a ton of fun yanking peoples chains.

Interesting poll. I voted number 4. As we say around here, it wonders me. It continues to baffle me as to why we agonize over whether something is adequate when we have better tools to do a job. I know a pair of pliers can be used to remove a nut, but if I have a good wrench that will fit, I'd rather use it. It's not like the folks on here only have one rifle. I have a neighbor who has always used a 410 with slugs, same gun he uses for squirrels and rabbits. He kills deer every year. Shots are measured in feet. I don't hunt deer with a 410 them either.
Hunting conditions and styles vary a lot over the US, use whatever makes your socks go up and down.
Bfly

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
One thing the anti folks need to remember or at least think about, if we, hunters as a group start outlawing certain calibers or designs of rifles for hunting simply because we don't think it is the best option, it will only open the door to further banning's and I do not think any of us really want that to happen.

I have never agreed with that logic, or understood how someone could think that way or advocate such a notion. I really think that it flawed logic. It's like saying if one law is passed, then that opens the door to others, and so forth, ---- perhaps leading to a civilized society?

It's like saying "I'm and advocate of Polarization". As thought somehow it's a formula for success or winning. Heck, that's what political conservatives are dug in about. It's a Conservative Modus Operandi nowadays - divide the nation, or do everything possible to maintain division, even when we hear the giant flushing sound.

Heck, we already live day to day within a mulitude of laws and regs, and mostly it's not overwhelming, and fodder for zealots. There are already many and varying laws on the books regulating what firearms and cartridges and timing and methods re deer hunting and all other aspects. What's the problem of modification or revisions of laws? It happens all the time. We are not locked in stone as a society -- are we? What makes folks get crazy Paranoid or skitzo about any law re firearms or hunting?

Personally, I think that many gun freaks are crazier and more dangerous or more prone to do harm to others, in general, than anti freaks.

KB

Crazyhorse--I brought it up that in SOME states a .25ACP would be legal and a .223 not. You're "that is totally false" is well it is totally false. P dog shooter gave Wis as one example.

quote:

Wis. law

But Wisconsin Law, is not the law of the land, i.e. America.

I have killed a deer with a .22 Hornet. Did it do the job, Yes, one shot about 80 yards and is one of the few deer I have killed that dropped on the spot.

Is the .22 Hornet a good choice for hunting deer, in my opinion, No.

KB, think and believe whatever you want to, America would not be in the shape it is in today had the citizens of this country kept watch on our politicians and stopped them from making laws and then adding amendments to those laws making them stricter and less enforceable.

With that said, this poll is about the use of .223 rifles for hunting deer, Not YOUR PERSONAL POLITICAL VIEWS ON ANYTHING!

Stick to the subject or move along to something else. People are attempting to offer reasonable and civil discourse on the subject with their comments, everyone on here knows how you feel on the subject, and your not going to change anyone else's mind.

Have A Good Day.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
You might consider it on the minimalist end of the spectrum, but none of you want to jog out about 350yds and let me take a shot at you with one in my bolt gun.

+1

Crazyhorse---Wisconsin law is not the law of America??? Gosh I didn't know that and I did think before you enlightened me that they would fall in the category of SOME states. I have been fearful that Wisconsin would pass a new law and I'd be required to wear a cheesehead hat. Migratory birds are federally controlled. That is why a Federal duck stamp is required ALL STATES. The Feds can restrict shotguns to a 3 shot capacity in all states when hunting migratory birds. Here in Texas, that 3 shot restriction doesn't apply to quail as they are not considered migratory. These would be Laws of the Land. Now go up to Wisconsin and break some of their laws and see if you get off because they are not laws of the land.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
KB, think and believe whatever you want to,

With that said, this poll is about the use of .223 rifles for hunting deer, Not YOUR PERSONAL POLITICAL VIEWS ON ANYTHING!

Uh, let's pretend like what you said wasn't a political view !!!

Let's both have a nice day. I already am and hope you do too.



KB

Some people take this stuff way to serious.

Heck late doe season is on maybe I'll take my 1100fps hornets loads out ad kill one with it.

OK not the hornet I'll load them to 800fps in my 223 so I am back on subject and it well be perfectly legal to do so.

I think I'll crank up the scope to 24x and shoot the bugger in the left ear hole from about 15 yards.

That's the goofing ness of these caliber restrictions

I use whatever floats my boat at the time I walk out the door. I have a beautifull little rook rifle I had to carry. A spike shot in the neck didn't know it had less power then a .223, or anything else for that matter!

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I use whatever floats my boat at the time I walk out the door. I have a beautifull little rook rifle I had to carry. A spike shot in the neck didn't know it had less power then a .223, or anything else for that matter!

+1

Not legal in my state, so I built a 6x45....

A Scimitar Oryx shot in the brain pan with a 22 Mag bang-flop(after being blinded with a spotlight). A 223 ten times better!

Its not what you hit 'em with, Its where.

AND....within reason. Would a 223 solid have enough energy to penetrate the skull of an ele? I have no experience with pachyderms. If it was the only rifle available.....not unless my life depended upon it!

'Squatch

Heck, I killed a decent 8 point buck with my AR-15 using 55 grain pointed soft points. The deer piled up five feet from where I hit him first. It's where you hit them, as well as understanding the bullet's energy at various yardages...

It can be done quite effectively...

At this point in time, 4 out of 91, believe that the .223 is not adequate under ANY circumstance for hunting deer. That means, that 87 people seem to believe it is up to the shooter to decide what is best to use under their particular circumstances.

Which is as it should be REGARDLESS of anyone else's opinion. Unless the state a person is hunting in, mandates what is and is not a legal caliber for hunting deer, it is up to the individual to decide what works best for them. THAT DOES NOT MEAN, that other hunters can not feel or believe that there are better choices.

quote:

THAT DOES NOT MEAN, that other hunters can not feel or believe that there are better choices.

Very true

Some people do seem to get up set when you tell them other wise.

For me - no. For the rest of you - I don't give a damn

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by Norwegianwoods:
I think this is a dilemma.
As lots of people are not skilled enough with their gun to shoot a deer at 100 yards. Not to talk about 200, 300 yards and longer.
How about shooting at animals running/walking?
And lots of other situations where it demands that the hunter has knowledge, skills and self restrain.

I don't know about Norway, but many States have regs requiring hunter safety training in order to get a hunting license. The classes go into skills and self restraint somewhat. I doubt that many fail to pass. It's probably the best that regulations can do about the human variable.


KB

Our hunter safety courses may cover some safety basics but they are uniformly a joke when it comes to demonstrating shooting skills. Mine, which is accepted in all 50 states was conducted with pellet guns at 30 feet. The Europeans have us beat hands down in that regard.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Now there's an interesting perspective. Is the cartridge to blame, or the delivery mechanism? There were plenty of small caliber rounds available before the 223, but were they detrimental?

The 223 is "special" because of the type of following it draws, especially in the AR.

BTW, I own several ARs, and consider them a fine hunting tool, just that I wouldn't hunt with one in 223.

In fact, I'm heading for the deer stand in a few minutes and taking my AR15 in 6.5 Grendel.

KB

That's the most perverted logic you've come up with to date, K. And you've had some doozies...

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

The 223 is "special" because of the type of following it draws, especially in the AR.
KB

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:

That's the most perverted logic you've come up with to date, K. And you've had some doozies...

I has nothing to do with logic, and everything to do with observation.

The doozies are the 223 perverts.

KB

tacticool:

The simple fact is that the 222 was killing dear side by side with the 30-30 long before the 223 came out. The 223 is capable of killing deer when the bullet is properly placed and fired within the rifles capable range.

Anyone who thinks the 223 can't kill deer is dreaming. It has and it will continue to kill deer. Will I use it for that purpose? Not unless there is no other choice because I like medium size rifles that provide a bit of margin for error. My brother uses a 223 and a 6mm TCU to kill deer and they work well for him. This discussion has never been about whether the cartridge will kill a deer it has been about whether you would choose to use it to kill deer.

It is a proven fact the the 223 can kill deer.

One could take this to the natural next level. Twenty years ago I took my 257Rob. into elk camp with about 10 others there. Found out how completely undergunned I was for elk. Imagine how thrilled I was when I found out nobody had told the elk! Used what I had, but would have preferred something bigger; which I have now.

Would I use a .223 on whitetail deer? Absolutely; but I have something bigger now. I have wondered, but haven't looked; if this same argument goes on on the bow and arrow forums. 100 grain broadhead vs. 125 gr. broadhead. Or carbon arrows vs. aluminum shafts? How about a 22.3 lb. pull vs. a 30.06 lb pull.

So sorry, getting a bit dazed and confused by all this fuss.

We haven't even broke ground on those lowly and gently loaded 36 calibre Pennsylvania long rifles. It's an awful wonder our ancestors didn't starve to death back in the woods.

Shoot what you have. Shoot enough to be good at it. Take an ethical shot with whatever is in your hands and enjoy the venison! Outahere!

quote:

The simple fact is that the 222 was killing dear side by side with the 30-30 long before the 223 came out. The 223 is capable of killing deer when the bullet is properly placed and fired within the rifles capable range.

Anyone who thinks the 223 can't kill deer is dreaming. It has and it will continue to kill deer. Will I use it for that purpose? Not unless there is no other choice because I like medium size rifles that provide a bit of margin for error. My brother uses a 223 and a 6mm TCU to kill deer and they work well for him. This discussion has never been about whether the cartridge will kill a deer it has been about whether you would choose to use it to kill deer.

It is a proven fact the the 223 can kill deer.

Let's get serious. The "championing" of the 223 or any other minimal caliber for 200 lb or larger game is about the "sport"..the "look at me" and what I can do factor. The fact that this topic keeps getting regurgitated by the same proponents proves the fact.

Everyone here knows that 140gr at 2800 is a better all around option. And everyone here knows that when that big 12 pointer with the drop tines quarters at 200+ yards, all the responsible, "pick my shot", 223 experts are still going to take the shot, whether its marginal or not....which means a lot of the give and take here has just been "bunk".

My last post on the subject. Its just a bunch of chest thumping.

Those "perverts" are being judged by their cover by an individual who supposedly owns the high moral ground on many issues. It has the flavor of simple bigotry from here, Kube. It's called "projection" in psycological circles and speaks more about you than anything you could post.

quote:

Originally posted by JonP:

quote:

The simple fact is that the 222 was killing dear side by side with the 30-30 long before the 223 came out. The 223 is capable of killing deer when the bullet is properly placed and fired within the rifles capable range.

Anyone who thinks the 223 can't kill deer is dreaming. It has and it will continue to kill deer. Will I use it for that purpose? Not unless there is no other choice because I like medium size rifles that provide a bit of margin for error. My brother uses a 223 and a 6mm TCU to kill deer and they work well for him. This discussion has never been about whether the cartridge will kill a deer it has been about whether you would choose to use it to kill deer.

It is a proven fact the the 223 can kill deer.

Let's get serious. The "championing" of the 223 or any other minimal caliber for 200 lb or larger game is about the "sport"..the "look at me" and what I can do factor. The fact that this topic keeps getting regurgitated by the same proponents proves the fact.

Everyone here knows that 140gr at 2800 is a better all around option. And everyone here knows that when that big 12 pointer with the drop tines quarters at 200+ yards, all the responsible, "pick my shot", 223 experts are still going to take the shot, whether its marginal or not....which means a lot of the give and take here has just been "bunk".

My last post on the subject. Its just a bunch of chest thumping.

But at least it's your last post on the subject.

Wyoming just made 223 legal for deer and antelope.. I have cleanly killed Michigan whitetails with one..would it be my first choice? No..I know a fellow in Idaho that bought a cow elk from an elk farm and killed it with a 17HMR..took two shots to the ear hole from a few feet away..recommended? No. Could it be done? Yes..

Good poll with some interesting responses. Makes me want to spend more time with my Bushmaster Varminter.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Kube. It's called "projection" in psycological circles and speaks more about you than anything you could post.

Maybe so. It seems to me that you are an expert on the topic. How’s that? Sorta like takes one to know one?

OK, I admit that I secretly want a 223, but since I consider it a bad attribute, and I can see no practical use for one, so I have these instead:



Two AR15s in 6.5 Grendel and one AR10 in 308. Yes, I’m an AR pervert, but at least they ain’t in 223, and the green and camo vs all black makes them real hunting tools.

I've shot the AR15 in 223 and to me the Grendel is just as mild (recoil and blast) and just as accurate. Even the 308 in the AR10 is very easy to shoot.

Drool, Drool -- I shot them all, again, yesterday -- fun and very accurate. Those Grendels love the Hornady factory 123gr SST ammo. Mayby I'll post some pictures of a shot deer later.

Here's what the Grendel does for hogs. Of course practically any bullet from a 223 would have also resulted in a dead hog, with the same bullet placment and range and field conditions, but I'm far more comfortable using the Grendel and 123gr SSTs as a hunting tool compared to the 223. It's not always that I can or have the opportunity for such precise placment. BTW, I was shooting from an elevated position and this shot was the A-Max 123gr (that's all I had at the time) so that little hole you see is the EXIT, after passing throught the neckbone. The 6.5mm is noted for penetration.



Hopefully, I'm redeemed because I also have one of these, also in 6.5 Grendel:



Psychological projection:
conceptualized by Sigmund Freud in the 1900s as a defense mechanism in which a person unconsciously rejects his or her own unacceptable attributes by ascribing them to objects or persons in the outside world.[1] Sigmund Freud, Case Histories II (PFL 9) p. 132

the projection of one's negative qualities onto others on a small scale is nevertheless a common process in everyday life.[4]^ R. Skynner/J. Cleese, Life and how to survive it (1994) p. 54; Wade, Tavris "Psychology" Sixth Edition Prentice Hall 2000 ISBN 0-321-04931-4

Freud considered that in projection thoughts, motivations, desires, and feelings that cannot be accepted as one's own are dealt with by being placed in the outside world and attributed to someone else.[6] What the ego repudiates is split off and placed in another.[7] Freud would later come to believe that projection did not take place arbitrarily, but rather seized on and exaggerated an element that already existed on a small scale in the other person.[8] Sigmund Freud, On Psychopathology (PFL 10) p. 200–1