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In as much as a 222 or 223 with a 60 gr. HOrnady will shoot through a deer broadside and literally destroy his lungs and heart, its hard for me to understand some of these comments...it is obvious that those that condem the use of these guns have not or perhaps are incapable of using them properly in which case they should not be hunting.. I realize these calibers are not for just everyone, but used within their perimeters they are as effective as any caliber out there on deer...you do have to pass up some nice bucks that are just out there a tad to far or they may be in a bad position for a shot as they walk off, but at up to 100 yards or so standing broadside you will get as many one shot instant kills as you will with a 30-30 or 30-06 for that matter...I have shot literally hundreds of springbok with a .223 cull hunting in Africa. I know exactly what it will do.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I think you may be under the impression most Accurate Reloading members don't have a MSR. I would bet more than half of them do. I have 3 MSRs excluding my 6.8 SPC ranch rifle which may or may not be considered a true MSR by some. My favorite is a STG-556 in your favorite caliber 5.56 NATO. Mine is loaded with 64 grain Nosler Bonded and I would not feel under gunned in the least in a self defense scenario with thugs/criminals. | |||
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Kabluewy Only three of them you need to get busy and buy some more to catch up. | |||
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KB, lord love ya' how are you? I happened to peruse this a day or so ago, but did not take the time to respond. I know this ain't the crater but I could not help but remark on your comment quoted above........... Lets see, most "anti" would be considered progressive, liberal or even dhimocrat. Perhaps you might agree with that assertion. Happened to see this the other day. *************************** In 1865 a Democrat shot and killed Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States . In 1881 a left wing radical Democrat shot James Garfield, President of the United States who later died from the wound. In 1963 a radical left wing socialist shot and killed John F. Kennedy, President of the United States. In 1975 a left wing radical Democrat fired shots at Gerald Ford, President of the United States. In 1983 a registered Democrat shot and wounded Ronald Reagan, President of the United States. In 1984 James Hubert, a disgruntled Democrat, shot and killed 22 people in a McDonalds restaurant. In 1986 Patrick Sherrill, a disgruntled Democrat, shot and killed 15 people in an Oklahoma post office. In 1990 James Pough, a disgruntled Democrat, shot and killed 10 people at a GMAC office. In 1991 George Hennard, a disgruntled Democrat, shot and killed 23 people in a Luby's cafeteria. In 1995 James Daniel Simpson, a disgruntled Democrat, shot and killed 5 coworkers in a Texas laboratory. In 1999 Larry Asbrook, a disgruntled Democrat, shot and killed 8 people at a church service. In 2001 a left wing radical Democrat fired shots at the White House in a failed attempt to kill George W. Bush, President of the US. In 2003 Douglas Williams, a disgruntled Democrat, shot and killed 7 people at a Lockheed Martin plant. In 2007 a registered Democrat named Seung - Hui Cho, shot and killed 32 people in Virginia Tech. In 2010 a mentally ill registered Democrat named Jared Lee Loughner, shot Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and killed 6 others. In 2011 a registered Democrat named James Holmes, went into a movie theater and shot and killed 12 people. In 2012 Andrew Engeldinger, a disgruntled Democrat, shot and killed 7 people in Minneapolis. In 2013 a registered Democrat named Adam Lanza, shot and killed 26 people in a school. As recently as Sept 2013, an angry Democrat shot 12 at a Navy ship yard. One could go on, but you get the point, even if the media does not. Clearly, there is a problem with Democrats and guns. Not one NRA member, Tea Party member, or Republican conservatives were involved in these shootings and murders. Perhaps you might comment on this here or take it to the ARPF Best, GWB | |||
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Clearly, I stand corrected. I knew I could count on you GWB. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I tell folks, I'm not a big man but big enough to admit it when I'm wrong. Good man. Hope you have a merry Christmas and the best the new year has to offer. Stop by if you're ever this way. I got a couple places where one can shoot one of those black rifles. Best, GWB | |||
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Thanks GWB. There's a good chance I'll be out your way in March or April. I'll let you know. Lately I've been enjoying practically everything about being in GA, on the farm. Lots of deer and hogs about. I've put up three deer stands so far, and see deer, bobcats, foxes, etc. almost every time I sit in one of the stands. My brother considers them all his pets, except the hogs, so thus far I've been trophy hunting only - no does - and I haven't yet been in the right place at the right time for hogs. It's fun being out there, and it's just a matter of time before I connect. After deer season, I'll concentrate on the hogs, and probably prepare some stinky bait substitute for mere corn. That oughta do it. Meanwhile happy holidays to you and family and all. ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Guys, Please don't let the fact that K and I didn't come to blows kill this thread. Carry on soldiers.    oh yeah, have a Merry Christmas all ya'll Best, GWB | |||
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Sorry, I really can't understand how anyone can misunderstand some folks opinions on the use of the .223 for deer, especially after making the quoted comment. Out of 117 votes on the poll so far, 4 people/3% of those voting seem to be the only ones that have any REAL problem with folks using the .223. If the number of people that have actually made comments is looked at, it is far less than the number of folks that voted. My estimation of the results so far, is that those who like and are satisfied with the results they get from the .223 are going to keep on using it, while other folks agree that the .223 can be successfully used to kill deer, they simply feel there are better options, and others don't care as long as the person using the .223 is satisfied and accepts the results. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Kinda what we expected. At least on the forum we are allowed to exercise our freedom of speech to debate it. If this was the real world, KB would kicked off the forums for his "racist" comments about the .223  | |||
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Not really; the 3% would try to have us kicked off for disagreeing with their world view (and ban the 223 in the process as KB has openly stated). Just like Phil Robertson and A&E Network.  "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Actually, that is a very good point. The vocal minority keeps everyone from expressing their views. We would be considered intolerant of KB's anti 223 lifestyle and kicked off the forums. | |||
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There is no freedom of speech in this country anymore....you have the right to speak politically correctly...but you'll have to speak to a liberal to find out what that means. | |||
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Just so this one does not "Fade Into The Sunset Like An Old Soldier", but for CarpetMan and his followers, PLEASE NOTE, out of 2024 views and 124 votes, only 4 people have a REAL PROBLEM with the .223 as a deer cartridge. The remaining 121 votes, simply point out that some folks really don't care, other folks think it is okay when used within its limitations and those of the shooter, and the largest percent simply believe or feel that while the .223 will kill deer, there are better options. Be Thankful that so very few people would like to see the cartridge outlawed for deer hunting and be mindful of the fact that some states DO prohibit its use on deer. Contrary to some individuals misguided/misinformed assumptions, I have seen quite a few deer killed with one shot from a .223, and also seen a few deer wounded and lost with 7mm. Rem.Mags. and other more standard "Deer Calibers". While it is accepted by, if the results of this poll are anything to go by, the .223 can and does account for many deer annually, it just may not or is not the optimum choice for ALL shooters/hunters. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Randall, Perhaps a thread could be started polling whether it's OK to shoot a hog in the face with a 223 AI.  Vermin control? GWB | |||
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I don't think anyone would argue with that one. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Crazyhorse, contrary to all the posts I've made that would seem to make it to the contrary, I'm on no crusade to get others to switch. I really could care less what they use. I do care if clean kills are made and do hate to hear reports of results to the contrary. I'd certainly not be a supporter of the .22 cals if clean kills were not being made. It was with great reluctance that I let my grandson shoot a doe with a .222 the first time. Works out that that doe went on a dead run of about 60 yards and that is the longest distance by far that any .22 cal shot deer I've seen. Most have dropped in their track. That doe was many years ago and I've seen a bunch shot since then. If this were not the case I'd be a non supporter. My experience has been, take my folding Work Mate bench and let a kid use it for a rest. Shoot a few rounds, get use to the rifle, make sure it is properly sighted in for them. Then make sure they have a rest, keep shots within 100 yards and WAIT until deer makes proper presentation. It is then a matter of could they hit a basketball under those conditions? Yip, young eyes are great. Plain old 55 grain cup and core do the trick. I do believe the false sense of security of a bigger gun and taking risky shots is about like the false security of a condom with a hole in it. I'm not opposed to bigger guns. I only went out one time this year and didn't get a shot, but I left my .243 home and did carry my .223. | |||
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Just curious, which bullet at what velocity and range? Impressive performance, for sure! Bullets are pretty worthless. All they do is hang around waiting to get loaded. | |||
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what size pig is that | |||
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If I am a betting man, that is the result of about a 70-grain Ballistic Tip. One reason I won't use them... they just make too much of a mess for me personally, but they are heck for accurate! | |||
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Agreed. But then who goes to the woods without the best possible gun in their hand. We have had months of reservations about this cartridge..."in the right hands"...at the right distance"....with this bullet,not that one"...etc, etc, etc. Great cartridge for certain applications, circumstances, when the deer stands in profile at 75 yds and a full moon shines and Mars is ascending. So when the big buck presents quartering AWAY AT 250...does the 223 hunter decline the shot...I doubt it. That's when it becomes sport...sadly. | |||
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If they are being truthful, many folks that support the use of the .223, draw the line when it comes to a big buck. I have read too many responses from folks that openly support or believe in using the .223 for does, but willingly state that if there is a chance that a shot at a good buck might present itself, they will carry something larger. This has been one of the recurring issues concerning the use of the .223 that I simply do not understand. If it is such a great round for deer hunting, then why does the potential size of the deer that might present a shot, make such a difference to the point that the .223 will be left at home in favor of a larger caliber? Instead of trying to repositions themselves so they can use the .223 within its limitations, they opt for a larger rifle, yet are the first to complain or malign other folks choice of larger rifles for deer hunting. As the poll continues to show, the largest percentage of those voting agree that the .223 can kill deer, they simply feel that there are better options, and many .223 users confirm that by openly and willingly admit that if a really good book or potential trophy buck is a distinct possibility they carry a larger caliber rifle with them. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Agree!! My uncle used to shoot deer for the meat with a .22 LR cause that is all he had. He only took head shots. From what my dad said, he didn't have to blood trail any deer. | |||
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You don't need shot placement. Just shoot them in the ass with a big ol magnum and watch them DRT from the shock wave. | |||
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The only two big game animals I shot with the .223 were free range Aoudad and Axis deer. I was using the VOR-TX ammo and they were both DRT. I was hunting for Bobcat and they showed up... In retrospect, I would use it again! | |||
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Scott--I've heard that at many Wal Mart gun counters. | |||
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So where are the tales of passing up the shot with the 22 cal because of the calibers limitations??? Says volumes.... | |||
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Regular larger calibers and the magnums, still require ACCURATE bullet placement that DOES NOT CHANGE REGARDLESS of the caliber used. The point is however, a .243 offers just a little bigger window, performance wise than the .223, don't believe me, look at CarpetMan's own posts! Magnums are not the answer, in their own way, they are just as specialized as the .223. Too many folks Do Not understand that concept. Magnums require just as exact bullet placement as the smaller calibers, the exception being that the magnums, in the hands of someone that knows how to work within the limitations of the cartridge and the Shooter, provide a little larger shooting window, but there are still no guarantees. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Crazyhorse--how do my posts confirm that? I've said I have never passed a shot that I would have taken with a bigger gun. Don't go twisting my words again. Mine and I'm sure Scotts posts were both tongue in cheek. | |||
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CarpetMan, you have stated, and I can find the post and do the quote nonsense that, you like starting kids/inexperienced shooters with the .223, but that NORMALLY, You Use A .243 or larger. If A Kid Can Not Handle The Recoil Of A .243, Then Possibly, That Child Is Not Old Enough To Be Hunting Deer!!!!! I just got thru guiding a 13 year old to his first deer and he was using a .270 and did not seem to have ANY trouble shooting that gun. As I have said in the past, I USED to believe the same way. Start a kid or anyone else off with a gun that is not going to kick the crap out of them or have so much muzzle blast the person won't be able to hear themselves fart for 3 days. At one point in time I felt that starting an inexperienced hunter off with a .222 Remi9ngton was the cats meow. I have learned that it isn't. Yes if the shooter makes a brain shot or spines the critter, the results are spectacular, no question about it. But you let it be a heart shot or a lung shot at the edge of the effective range of the smaller gun, there may be or won't be a blood trail to follow. Seeing the look on an inexperienced hunters face when they make a DRT shot is priceless. Explaining to an inexperienced hunter that even though they shot an animal that is going to die but it can not be recovered can cause that person to never hunt again, and it does happen. With todays stocks and ammo and guns made purposely for kids and women, and with all the emphasis on wearing hearing protection, there is not any real reason to start an inexperienced hunter after their first deer with anything smaller than a .243. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Crazyhorse---Indeed I've said I like starting kids on .223. Indeed I said I have been using .243. I have used a .243 for years but it doesn't mean I'd be reluctant to use a .223. In fact read couple of recent posts and it was my .223 I was carrying--but didn't get a shot. ANY shot I've taken on deer with bigger guns I'd have taken with a .223. Any shot I have passed on with a smaller gun, I'd have passed on with a larger gun. | |||
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And your point is? Some how I doubt that you would pass on a shot you were confident in making with your .243, but were not confident in making with a .223, say a 150 yard shot versus a 200 yard plus shot. Just because I prefer larger calibers, that does not mean I take shots I am not confident in making. One more time, it is the folks touting the virtues of the .223 as a deer gun yet at the same time declaring that they would not use the .223 if an actual trophy buck was a possibility. If a person is only going to take shots they know they can make with a .223, why have anything bigger? That is basically what you are saying. "If I Can't Kill It With A .223, Then I will Not Take A Shot With A .243/.25-06/270/.308 or a .30-06"! I really don't buy that. If you really meant that, WHY do you have a .243? Why did you use a .30-06? Good Lord man, only 4 people out of 130+ have stated/voted that the .223 IS NOT adequate for hunting deer, and I am not one of those 4. Your whole argument revolves around starting inexperienced shooters out with a gun they won't be afraid of. As I have said, I once held that same philosophy, but not any more. From personal experience, if the inexperienced shooter is started out PROPERLY, with todays equipment/ammo, they can begin with a .243 and work their way up, If They Choose To, there is no law that says they have too. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Crazyhorse--You plan on running for some kind of office? You can really twist words. You say something twice and it becomes a definite fact. I pass on shots I think there is a chance of something going wrong. Bigger guns don't increase the size of the kill zone. In the zone you kill em out of the zone you have a problem. | |||
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Ain't running for office and ain't twisted anyone's words around. I don't claim anything to be a fact, just relating actual experiences. If a person that does or has used a .223 deer hunting CLAIMS that they will not take a shot with a larger caliber rifle if it is a shot they would not take with their .223, Why Own ANYTHING OR HUNT WITH ANYTHING Larger than the .223? What is your "Confidence" range, in yardage for a .223? 125-150-200? It appears that you are saying that whatever the cut off is for you personally with the .223 yardage wise, you use that same cut off point for a .243 or even a .30-06. Am I misinterpreting that? Somehow, knowing human nature, especially human nature concerning folks I have hunted with as both a client and a guide, when many folks get caught up in the "Heat Of Battle", they tend to lose sight of a lot of their so-called "Self Limitations". As far as the subject of starting the inexperienced shooter out with something they can "Handle", one of if not the biggest problem I have seen with that issue is some jack ass Dad/Uncle/Cousin/Friend thinks its funny to start the "Newbie", "Off Right" and sets them down at the bench without a shoulder pad or anything and hands a .7mm Rem Mag or something similar in a rifle that is light for the caliber and then stands around laughing when the newbie pulls the trigger and gets clocked by the scope or knocked off the bench. I ain't saying that you or anyone else are WRONG for using a .223 for deer, I am guiding a couple this weekend and am pretty sure one of them will be using a .22-250, they did last year and I haven't heard anything about that person getting a larger gun. So I will put them in a couple of stands where the shots available are 125 yards or less and they will be just hunting does and pigs. As in the past, this whole thing is a   issue. No one has made any claims about the only thing anyone should use is some kind of magnum. No one has made any claims that a deer shot in the ass with a .30-06 is going to be DRT while a heart/spine shot with a .223 is no worse than a mosquito bite, the deer won't even flinch.My point of view personally is that while a .223 can and does kill deer, there are better options that do allow for a little more room for error. A heart shot deer can and often does run anywhere from a few yards up to in some cases 100 yards before realizing its ticket has been punched and the ride is over. The problem I have with the various .224's, is that in the vast majority of hunts I have been involved in, with a heart/lung shot, when recovered there was no exit wound/no blood trail to follow. I am old school in that I believe the more holes an engine has in it to let air and fluid out, the faster that engine will shut down, while leaving a relatively easy trail to follow. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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If a .223 is the be-all, do-all that you'd want to start a kid with, why switch to anything else? While you're at it, take him duck hunting with a .410. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Crazyhorseconsulting one of us Picture of Crazyhorseconsulting posted 25 December 2013 06:38 Hide Post Lora looks at two things when it comes to getting a gun for her use, cost of the gun, and whether or not I think it is something she will not have any trouble shooting. The 7mm-08 interests me because of the number of good reports I have had from folks that use that caliber. The rifle with scope should not be that much if any heavier than her .257. My reasons for steering her toward another rifle lies solely in my belief that stepping up from >>117/120 grain bullets to 130/140 grain bullets will give her a little more killing power if she places her shots correctly.<< Many Thanks for all the input folks. "It is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood." Posts: 8720 | Location: Olney, Texas | Registered: 27 March ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carpetman how do you expect to win a debate with a mind like this?? | |||
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Low wall--That vast step up in bullet weight is going to increase the kill range by 5.29 feet, maybe even more. Crazyhorse--You ask for a "confidence range". I can't give you an answer. If I'm not comfortable with the shot I don't take it. I don't laser shots and make a decision. I once passed on a very nice buck because of a tall clump of grass between us. This was with a 30-06. I place not having an exact range to give you about the same as another question I could ask of you. When making a left turn and there is approaching traffic how many feet away do you make the turn versus yielding until they get by? I've experienced this a whole lot more than shooting deer and I can't give an answer. You ask why own anything larger? I could apply your logic and ask why own anything smaller? As Low Wall posted your post, going from a .257 to a 7mm-08 gives you an increase. Why own a .257? You possibly have a pickup and might want to carry a bale of hay. With an 18 wheeler you could carry several bales, so why have a pickup? You mention knowing human nature makes you not believe how people react in the heat of battle. Perhaps you judge everyone's experience level by the experience level of your clients? How many of your clients can't field dress a deer after they shoot it? Or maybe it's a case of everyone except you, of course is a liar. | |||
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Crazyhorse--I do agree with you that it is not funny to give a kid more gun than they can handle. I believe a kid using a gun that kicks too much for them and they are uncomfortable with, will cause more bad shots, thus problems, than problems caused by any lack of killing power of a .223. Many say if they can handle a .223 they can handle a .243. Well if a woman bowls with a 12 pound ball she could bowl with a 16 pounder ONLY 4 pounds difference. If she can't she shouldn't be bowling. | |||
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Crazyhorse--I neglected to answer your questions of my usage of a .243. The answer is threefold. When I first started hunting with my future son in law he was using a .243. One time we went out and he was low on ammo. I thought if I too had a .243 that might eliminate that from happening again. I do like the .243 and at that time I had a 6MM Rem. I ran across a Win model 70 in .243 that appeared to have never been shot. It had a new, still sealed in plastic Tasco World Class scope (The scope still being in plastic added to the belief it had never been shot) The man selling it had gotten it from his father and son knew he had never shot it and didn't think his dad had. He offered me the whole package for $225. I'd say it would be foolish for me NOT to own a .243. People call Tasco scopes Trashco , but the World Class seems very good and in the days it was purchased, the price was right there with more popular brands. I don't have it on the .243 it's on a 22-250. I did not have a .223 until years later. I also did not have experience of watching deer shot with a .223 until years later. Why I bought the .223 is another story. | |||
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