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One of Us |
My nieces are finishing up hunters safety this spring and my father is buying each of them a rifle. Being the family gun nut, he is entrusting me to do the rifle build. They love my wife's gun so I will probably end up with either a Ruger 77, Winchester 70 or Remington 700 with a more feminine colored McMillan stock.I will also swich out or rework the trigger. Neither one of them likes too much recoil so I will have to choose a very light recoiling round. Also, they are twins and like to be unique, hence the non typical caliber choices. "though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." ---Thomas Jefferson | ||
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| One of Us |
I understand not wanting to do standard chamberings but I'd think about as they grow older are they going to enjoy a non standard chamber? Are your niece's going to want to reload or buy factory ammunition when they go out on their own? I would choose the .250 or .257 for the simple fact they are probably the most common of all that you mentioned right now. | |||
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| One of Us |
The 250 Savage and the 257 Bob have served me well. I shoot the 100 gr. ballistic tips in the 250 Savage and the 110 gr. accubonds in the 257 Bob. I've owned the 243 WSSM and will never do that again. Nothing good to say about it at all. The 240 Weatherby will cost more to shoot, and I can't think of a rifle other than a Weatherby, or a custom that it is chambered in However, it is a killer with 85 gr. Nosler partitions. To date I've no experience with the Creedmore or the 6.5 x 47. I've owned several rifles chambered in 260 Rem and 6.5 x 55, which are fine deer/hog slayers. If they are recoil sensitive, I don't think you could go wrong with the 250 Savage or the Bob. Best GWB | |||
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I only listed this because one of my friends uses it and loves it. He did have to work out some feeding problems but now it works like a dream. Please share your experience with this caliber, would like to get another opinion. "though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." ---Thomas Jefferson | |||
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| One of Us |
6.5x47 Lapua by far. | |||
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One of Us |
I didn't vote, because I like the .243 Win for a youth gun. It works too good for me to change. Based on your list of options, I'd pick one of the first three listed. ----------------------------------------------------- Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him. Proverbs 26-4 National Rifle Association Life Member | |||
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| One of Us |
The Bob get's the nod. Barnes 100gr. TSX are more fur friendly than most 224 bullets. And will put any deer on the meat pole. Why build a rifle just get a pair of Kimber Montana's in 257 Roberts. They would cost about the same as a custom build. If at some point in time they don't like them, they will have a higher resale value. | |||
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| One of Us |
I didn't vote because I feel the 260 Remington is perfect for your needs but not listed. A pal built a 7 TCU for his grandaughter and there is zero recoil and it works fine on whitetails. | |||
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one of us |
260 Rem. My ten year old opted for a 6.5x55 only because he chose a Mauser action. Same thing really but in the actions you mention where true short actions are available, I'd pic the .260.  Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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 It is assumed that deer will be the the prey. Simply put the .250-3000 with 100 grain bullet will get the job done with minimum recoil.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Simply put, a rock will kill a deer. The 260 is far more available in a variety of factory loads than the .250-3000. Far more versatile too. All the cartridges mentioned will kill a deer, that's not disputed. I've just found the 6.5's to be more versatile. Enough so that my 25's now just sit in the safe. If one hand loads, then the 6.5's are even more so. My son started out with 100 gr BT's travelling at 2500 fps. Yet, he can, when he's ready, load 160's to better than 2700 fps. The .250 tops out at 2600 fps with 120's and the .260 will match that velocity with 160's. My own personal opinion is that the .260 is the best factory available cartridge for youngsters on the market today. Especially when coupled with with the many factory compact rifles chambered for it. The average Joe can walk into most any store and find one as well as ammo. The only other cratridge that comes close in that regard is the .243 and I think the .260 is a better cartridge. Soap box mode off. Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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I suspect that you are projecting your desire for "uniqueness" in rifle calibers onto your neices' desire for uniqueness in things like clothes, hair, and jewelry. I seriously doubt that they will care much about how unique the chambering of their rifles as they will about how unique their rifles' appearance. They will care much more about their ability to pick up a box of shells at the local Walmart after forgetting to pack the ammunition for their hunt. For deer and coyotes, nothing tops the ubiquitous (and non-unique) .243 Winchester. By the way, look for a very short, light action (Rem 7 for example) and put a fairly short and slender barrel on it. Young shooters fatigue quickly when trying to aim a muzzle-heavy gun. Also, be sure to make the stock comb as high as possible. Young shooters, especially girls, have thin faces and need all of the elevaton at the comb they can get in order to properly align the scope with the eye. And keep the scopes small, light, and mounted low! | |||
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I also did not vote because I would also choose the 260. If not that, then the Bob. IMHO, you have only listed rifle loonie type cartridges and not as many real world hunting cases that can either be easily obtained or made from easily obtainable sources when in the woods. I can not go to any of my local stores in KC except maybe Cabelas and find any of the cases you have listed. Not saying it is bad, just an observation. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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I guess Stonecreek beat me to it. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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I voted 6:5 Creed from your list. But would suggest a 7mm 08. Easily loaded down for starters, and truly an all around rifle for life. Factory ammo is readily available. | |||
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One of Us |
I voted for the .250 Savage. I have used it and watched it kill jackrabbits, ground squirrels, coyotes, bobcats, deer, and Alberta moose since the mid-1950's. Never seen it fail. That's probably because it is so easy to place shots well with. Roger is pretty much bang-on with his comments about the .250 cartridge and 100 grain bullets, though most of the deer I have seen killed with it until about 1980 were shot with 87 grain factory loads and bang-flopped right there. At least for a first rifle of their own I wouldn't recommend a .260 or even a .257 Roberts for petite kids, though both are great choices for adults. With kids, especially small build ones, I think it is vital to keep shooting as much on the comfort and fun side as possible. When they are ready for a move up in gun weight, recoil, and/or cartridge power, they will bug you for a bigger gun. Then is the time to get them a rifle in a more versatile all-around "adult" chambering. JMHO. | |||
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While your list of aesotheric cartridges is impressive, it doesn't address the availability of store bought ammo, (you might not always be available) nor does it address most women's attitude toward rifles. I've never heard a woman discuss the relative advantages of a .243 versus a 6mm; nor have I heard them brag about the fact that their rifle is in some bizarre cartridge. They seem to be interested in rifles that go bang. The technicolor McSwirly stock may be a plus. I think I'd direct my efforts toward a more common cartridge like a .260 or 7-08. Since you reload, both of these cartridges can be loaded up or down to enhance their adaptability. I think you'll find that their response is: Uncle XXX bought me a rifle; not Uncle XXX has bought me a rifle in XXX calibre that sends a XXX bullet downrange at XXX velocity. How many folks have bought their daughter a new car and had them ask what size motor is under the hood?  Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Here is a link to a post I made a couple years ago in regards to the 243 WSSM, http://forums.accuratereloadin...=399101257#399101257 I've yet to change my mind. Over my "reloading career", I think have owned firearms chambered for +/- 57 different chamberings. Only two I do not plan to own again. The 243 wssm and the 338 federal. Totally subjective on my part. My son married a young lady several years ago. At that time her son was just about to turn twelve. He had never been hunting or shot a rifle before. It was deer season so my son and I took him to the range to practice before we took him hunting. Wanted to be sure he at least was familiar with the basics. He's a good kid and will listen to instruction. I let him use my Kimber Montana, which was chambered in 260 Rem. It was loaded with 120 gr. Nosler ballistic tips. He's not a big kid and had no problem with shooting it off the bench. Here is a doe he took at +/- 80 yds. as I recall. Almost forgot, first hunt, first deer, 12th birthday.  He is 15 as I write this. He took a nice hog at 165 yds. with my browning micro medallion in 7-08 this last December. Did everything right. Got his cheek weld, acquired his target,took his time, breathed and squeezed. Kid listens. If you didn't reload, I'd follow Stonecreek's advice and get a 243 win, as you can purchase adequate ammo almost anywhere. Since you do reload, I don't think you could go wrong with even a 223 loaded with 53 gr. TSX, a 243, 250 Savage, 257 Bob or a 260 Rem. Best GWB | |||
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AC, I have to respectfully disagree. Midway lists one load and one load only for the 250 Savage. A 100 gn bullet at 2820 fps. They list 22 loads for the .260 including Remington's managed recoil load. Thus, for all intents and purposes, the .250 is a hand load only proposition. So, if you are going to have to reload, then any load you create for the .250 you can duplicate in the .260. But the .260 can also easily exceed any .250 load you come up with. So, you can load equal weight bullets at equal velocities and since the powder charges are very similar so too then is recoil. You'll note that my 100 grain loads for the 6.5x55 are milder even than your .250's. As I said, for the average Joe and his daughter or small son, I think a .243 or .260 makes much more sense given that factory rifles are easily found as is ammo. Of those two, I prefer the .260. If of course, the rifle just has to be a "custom" well, then so be it. The .250 makes sense in that situation as anyone requesting such a custom is likely a reloader too. Not everyone is so lucky. For those unfortunates, the .250 just doesn't make much practical sense. Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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I figured as he was going to build the rifle he was probably going to build the ammo too. For three or four years (or even longer) I don't figure they are going to be going to the store and buying their own ammo, or be hunting or shooting alone. 'Peers to me as if they will probably be with some adult who will be their ammo supply. And I would make sure the first year or two they were hunting with the 87 grain bullet from the .250. By the time they are buying their own ammo at the store, they'll likely be ready for the 100 grain stuff. You can duplicate that .250 performance or shoot even lighter stuff of course with the .243 Winchester, so one could go with that if they wanted to. (Though most short-barreled .243s I've sen or shot seem to have greater muzzle blast and more piercing noise levels, which I don't like for kids. I still think there is no point in starting with the .260 for them. i'm guessing versatility is probably not their more important need at this point. I have a .260 and several other 6.5s, so I am not against them. Just that he asked for our opinions, and the .250 is what I would start the kids with. In my opinion it is just about perfect for small, light-boned and not heavily muscled kids. Everyone else's opinion may vary, either marginally or greatly, but that is mine. | |||
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+ another vote for the .260 rem. | |||
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Moderator |
I didn't vote because you didn't offer my two favorite chamberings for starting out hunters, .223 and .243, with the .243 being more versatile, but the .223 being a better one to learn with due to milder recoil and report. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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I didn't vote either because I like both the 243W and the 260R better than the rest of your options listed! ________ Ray | |||
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I did vote, and I voted for the .257 Robert's it is what my wife has been using for several years and it has always done a great job. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Z1R! Have you ever used a .250-3000 bolt action rifle? It really is pleasant and plenty versatile when hand loading or not. Even a 100 grain bullet at 2800 fps. ain't a cream puff.  Besides that, the .260 is only a so-so compromise cartridge.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Thank you all for your input. I was leaning toward the 257 Bob and 250 Savage but just wanted to get some kind of conformation. I thought I should let you guys know that I picked up a Ruger MK II chambered for 257 Roberts today for cheap at my local pawn shop. I ordered a McMillan Mark Hunter in a purple/white/black camo pattern 11.75 Lop with adjustable spacer system. One down one to go! "though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." ---Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Don't think you can go wrong with the Bob. 100 gr. ballistic tips or 110 Accubonds (my favorite in the Bob, with results shown) work great on deer and hogs. Best GWB      | |||
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Read my post. So, tell me, how does the recoil differ between a .250 shooting a 100 grain bullet and a .260 shooting a 100 grain bullet at the same velocity?  Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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One of Us |
This was helpful to read, since I'm grandfather to several who will soon be big enough for rifles. The Bob is a great choice, though not easy to find in smaller off the shelf models these days. I didn't vote, for many of the reasons above. For a classic rifle that should be a keeper, I would lean toward the new Winchester 70 Featherweight Compact in either 7-08 or 243. The length of pull is 13" and 20" barrel. Alternatively, the Ruger Compacts look very nice for a young one with their 16.5" barrels, but I'm concerned about muzzle blast in the standard hunting calibres. So I'd recommend (to myself) the Winnie in 7-08 or 243. If flat open hunting, then the 243. If heavier deer or elk are around, then 7-08. For Africa, the 7-08. It will take guinea fowl and geese as well as the 223 or 243. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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One of Us |
I asked Mr. Boddington a similar question a few days ago. His suggestion was a short action cartridge, in particular the .260 Rem or 7mm-08. Might not be so "unique", but functionality & availability have an attractiveness all their own! Have fun with the build - you and your dad & your nieces will remember it for a long time! God bless!  friar Our liberties we prize, and our rights we will maintain. | |||
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 Not a RCH difference as long as the 100 grain 6.5 bullet is properly constructed to handle deer. Hand loaded I assume. Same with a .270 and many other cartridges, but *** rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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| One of Us |
The 260 rem would be my first choice in a short action too, but that was not an option in the poll | |||
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One of Us |
The 257 Roberts will be a very fine caliber for them! | |||
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| One of Us |
The .257 is a splendid cartridge. I just prefer the .250 Savage for kids because even though it is hard to find in ANY rifle these days, when found they are often in smaller rifles. What I think would be perfect for a kid is one of the bolt guns I don't ordinarily recommend for adult use. That's a Savage M1920 in .250-3000 like Roger has and loves, with the buttstock cut to fit the kid. Another reason I prefer the .250 to the .257 is that the cartridge case of the .250 is short enough to work well with bullets seated out, even in a "short" action. That is sometimes difficult if not impossible with the .257 in short action rifles. Still, pretty much every cartridge mentioned here will work okay, so long as we don't start out edging the kids upward in power, weight, recoil, or noise too quickly....and the smaller the kid, the smaller the cartridge I would build for them at first. For very young or very small kids, I think I might even prefer a .222 or .223 built in a rifle with a proper twist and throat for the heavier bullets in that chambering. I have killed deer with 55 grain .224" diameter bullets, so am sure the 70 or 75 grain ones from either a .222 or .223 would do it too. And there is no time like the very beginning to teach them to take only the "good" shots when hunting, not just "any" shot which presents itself. Still, I'd rather have something a little bigger for most of them....whatever it is it should fit each individual kid, not us. | |||
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Update: After calling and serching what seemed to be every gun store in a 50mile radius I only found 1 250 savage for a decent price. It was a Rem 700 for 650.00. The deal breaker for me though was that it had a 24'' barrel, a little to long for my tastes. Anyway, on the way home I decided to go pick up some steel shot at Sheels. I did a quick check in their used section and found a Remington model 7 stainless in 260, for a price that was too good to pass up. The stock was banged up quite a bit but the metal was fine, so I bought it. Come Monday I will order a the new stock as well as dies and brass for the two guns. "though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." ---Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Moderator |
i voted for the 257 ... but i'd rather have voted for the 308 or 708 opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Sir, FWIW, at Bruno Shooters Supply (http://www.brunoshooterssupply.com/loading-components/brass/lapua.html) one can purchase Lapua brass by the piece. However, I find that RP does fine for general purpose. I’ve owned two different rifles chambered in 260 Rem. A Kimber Montana and a Sako 75. I’ve had excellent results w/ 120 gr. nosler ballistic tips, 43 gr. IMR 4320, fed 210m primers oal@ 2.780" (I was thinking Partitons when I wrote 125 grain for the bullet weight. It was actually the 120 gr. ballistic tips.)  My current "go to load" that I use now employs the 130 gr Accubonds. I've found that 43 gr. H414, and OAL of 2.900, fed 210M primers work well in both a Kimber Montana and Sako Varmint in 260 Rem.  Best GWB | |||
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Nice job Glen, you can tell from the way that young man is holding "his" rifle and his deer that you've made another one of us. Good show. | |||
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That's an odd choice of calibers. I would think that something along the lines of a 7mm/08 might be better. Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, Varmint Hunters' Assn., ARTCA, and American Legion. "An armed society is a polite society" --Robert Heinlein via Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC Caveat Emptor: Don't trust *Cavery Grips* from Clayton, NC. He is a ripoff. | |||
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one of us |
My first question is what will they be shooting at and at what ranges. If the nieces will ever go after deer-sized game, of the calibers you've listed, I like the 257 if you expect to do most of their shooting inside 200 yards, and the 6.5 Creedmoor if shooting further seems likely. I've been flirting with a 6.5 Creedmore for myself. I'm curious why you've not listed .243, 6.5x55, .260 or even 7mm08. Factory loads for all four would be a lot easier to find around here than any of the ones you've listed. For myself, and especially for young ones, I like the security of knowing they can find factory ammo without a lot of trouble. Sei wach! | |||
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