quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
What happened to the concept of the shooter using the caliber/bullet combination they are most comfortable/confident with?

Agreed!

Also, sorry I left the .308, and the 7mm08. Great all round calibers IMO, and fairly light recoil. But, I would also say that these are as heavy as most women will be able to tolerate. I wouldn't hesitate to hunt with a 25 caliber, but it would change my go/no go perspective.

quote:

but it would change my go/no go perspective.

We all need to work within a Go/No Go perspective, regardless of the caliber we are using.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

but it would change my go/no go perspective.

We all need to work within a Go/No Go perspective, regardless of the caliber we are using.

Isn't that the truth! Tough sometimes, but as my ole Pappy used to say, "son, that's the sign of a true sportsman". My uncle would say, "yea, I'm just not that mad at 'em, to take a cheap shot"! We need to reflect more on what a lot of the "true sportsman" taught!

I loaded 115 Barnes TSX in my 25-05 for one of my sons for elk hunting. He never fired a shot though. We use 80 TTSX for deer and antelope.

I have only shot 3 elk though. One Colorado bull with a 375 h-h and rem 270 soft points (these are a deer bullet in my opinion).

one six point I shot with my bow two years ago and a five point last year with a 30-06 and 175 LRX.

Slip a 100 to 120 grain .257 bullet into an elk's heart/lungs just aft of the shoulder while the near leg is extended forward exposing them and the elk will die as quickly as from a .375 H&H. For that matter, a 55 grain .22 will also do the trick.

The problem is that it is not always "convenient" to wait for that perfect shot and you may need to shoot through a quartering shoulder or at an obtuse angle. That's why the percentages favor a .30 or even .33 with 180 to 250 bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
To put it in its proper perspective, you're gonna travel 1000+ miles, spend a sack full of money, and take a rifle that would be only effective under ideal circumstances. As posted, it isn't like you can say, oh well, I'll come back next week.
And too, are you dedicated enough that if a royal shows you his ass as he flees through the dark timber are you gonna give him a tip of your hat and watch him out of sight?

Honestly if all a big Elk shows you is his ass you SHOULD NOT SHOOT! no matter what caliber rifle you take Elk hunting. Do you really think shooting an Elk in the ass with a .338 or a .300 Winnie is EVER a good thing?
I kill elk and sorry I don't take ass shots no matter what.
The ONLY time I would say yes is if he's already hit and not down.
My brother always said once you hit one "keep shooting until their hooves are in the air".

I've been lucky and killed a bunch of elk and been around a bunch and I would use a .257 Roberts and 117 grain Sierra's in a heartbeat.
Pick your shots like any ethical hunter, you'll have dead elk.
Elk are famous for taking a solid hit and not acting hit, this causes some frantic shooting from most folks.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
To put it in its proper perspective, you're gonna travel 1000+ miles, spend a sack full of money, and take a rifle that would be only effective under ideal circumstances. As posted, it isn't like you can say, oh well, I'll come back next week.
And too, are you dedicated enough that if a royal shows you his ass as he flees through the dark timber are you gonna give him a tip of your hat and watch him out of sight?

Honestly if all a big Elk shows you is his ass you SHOULD NOT SHOOT! no matter what caliber rifle you take Elk hunting. Do you really think shooting an Elk in the ass with a .338 or a .300 Winnie is EVER a good thing?
I kill elk and sorry I don't take ass shots no matter what.
The ONLY time I would say yes is if he's already hit and not down.
My brother always said once you hit one "keep shooting until their hooves are in the air".

I've been lucky and killed a bunch of elk and been around a bunch and I would use a .257 Roberts and 117 grain Sierra's in a heartbeat.
Pick your shots like any ethical hunter, you'll have dead elk.
Elk are famous for taking a solid hit and not acting hit, this causes some frantic shooting from most folks.

I certainly got a laugh out of this! Totally agree, and you're right, no matter what caliber, we Do Not shoot at there bung as they turn to run away.

I'd not hesitate to use the 257 Rob on any elk.

I'd load a 115 or 120 gr Partition and not worry.

quote:

Originally posted by Bren7X64:
I'm reading this thread with interest, since IIRC Boddington said that the toughest game he's ever encountered (apart from buff and such) are elk.

Considering the conventional wisdom in southern Africa is that wildebeest start out being sick and get just a tad healthier each time you shoot them wrong, I'd appreciate any insights you guys have ....

Then Boddington has not shot red deer or perhaps not too many of them for it is a well accepted fact here in NZ that Wapiti, as we call your Elk, are rather 'soft' and much easier to kill than red stag. In the early days of hunting in Fiordland where our introduced Wapiti population lived and thrived, the SMLE in 303 British cartridge was king and easily felled hundreds of big Wapiti bulls, many with modified military ball ammo (tips cut and drilled for hollow point). Later as more modern rifles and cartridges became available, the 7mm Mauser, 243W, 270W and such like became common for use on Wapiti.

The Wapiti were found from the deep coastal bush to the steep open mountain tops in Fiordland so there was certainly a range of shooting conditions under which these animals were taken. Although Red stag are recognised here as needing to be hit well to put out down, the red deer hind (doe) is much tougher than the stag and have a great tenacity for life. Many a hind is lost through not being hit properly and hard.

Saying that, the whole gambit of cartridges are used here in NZ from 222Rem on up to 375H&H but with the 7mm-08, 243W, 308W being as popular and as effective as any on all our game animals.

I killed a lot of elk growing up and hunting with my family..I shot my first 4 or 5 with a 25-35 Win., then as I aged I upgraded to a 250-3000, then a 30-06 and .270.. Every elk I shot with the 25s fell at the shot except a couple and they made about 50 and 75 yards..All shots were broadside and under 200 yards because dad told me to get within 100 yards, and he did not care for long drawn out tracking jobs, but sometimes youth mentality went into overload and I streatched it a bit and prayed for forgiveness and salvation from dad mostly.

Today I use and recommend at least a 30-06. mostly I use a 9.3x62 or .338 Win and take the shots as they come because the elk I hunt today are not the same animal of my misspent youth, in that they stay bushed up and come to the tree line in the late evenings and they seem to be much wilder..Also where we used to see more than a few bulls every day, we now see perhaps two or three in a week of hunting. These days I prefer to be overgunned on elk..

I might add that in todays elk hunting its not unusual to get a shot in the late evenings as the bulls come out to the edge of the trees in the late evening and you really need to get them down quick, tracking at night in Idaho just ain't fun, its hard to do and I know of a lot of elk lost that way..If you use a light rifle your best off to skip the evening hunt. My dad only let me hunt the morning hunt for that reason.

Good posts by all. I appreciate your thoughts!

Knowing you and your rifle's limitations is the key.

I have used a .243 Win with factory Remington 100gr ammo. I have also used 7rem mag, 25-06, and 300Win Mag.

I used the 122gr Remington Extended Range factory ammo in my 25-06 with good results on a decent bodied bull. Following year I shot a cow with the same ammo and she dropped on the spot.

Growing up in Utah I hunted with a lot of people who used the 25-06 as their one rifle that does it all.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Slip a 100 to 120 grain .257 bullet into an elk's heart/lungs just aft of the shoulder while the near leg is extended forward exposing them and the elk will die as quickly as from a .375 H&H. For that matter, a 55 grain .22 will also do the trick.

The problem is that it is not always "convenient" to wait for that perfect shot and you may need to shoot through a quartering shoulder or at an obtuse angle. That's why the percentages favor a .30 or even .33 with 180 to 250 bullets.

an excellent post

As much as I've used the 25-35 and 250-3000 in the past, today I would only use it for a cow hunt in an alfalfa field..

Idaho has an open cow hunt but you must be within a mile of a cultivated field, and if your over a certain age you can use your P.U.s rear view mirrow and steering wheel as a bench rest. These Cow hunts arn't very sporting but they sure eat better than a bull, and they are a lot easier to pull up in a pickup bed. Eating 400 lbs of old rutting bull can be an exercise in futility and the whole family will not speak to you for up to six months!

If I pack in and hunt bulls these days I'll be shooting a .308, mod 99 Savage for horseback hunts in the desert, and the 9.3 or .338 for mountain hunting. It just makes since with todays wild elk. Nothing worse than a grueling elk tracking job, they can just go a long ways and Idaho has no hills, or flat spots, its all straight up and straight down. Its a sick feeling to see a bull go to the bottom of a divide and die, Suddenly you realize your next!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Slip a 100 to 120 grain .257 bullet into an elk's heart/lungs just aft of the shoulder while the near leg is extended forward exposing them and the elk will die as quickly as from a .375 H&H. For that matter, a 55 grain .22 will also do the trick.

The problem is that it is not always "convenient" to wait for that perfect shot and you may need to shoot through a quartering shoulder or at an obtuse angle. That's why the percentages favor a .30 or even .33 with 180 to 250 bullets.

an excellent post

10-4 VD roger

Only shot one elk in the heart lungs by deliberately putting the bullet through the third eye. The bullet, .338 300 Grain Original Barnes RN copper solid, came out his throat and as he was running when it hit him, he ran until his BP went to below functional levels. About 25 yards maybe. Pretty good Blood trail too...
Never really felt bad about it and have never understood feeling bad about a shot that hits the heart, Aorta, Lungs junction and causes near instant death no matter where it went in. Would do it again in a heartbeat. Running straight away with a long penetrating bullet is a fairly easy shot compared to 90% angle at a run which can end up too far back unless one is both careful and skillful. Since the thread is about a small bore; would very happily hunt elk with my son's 260 Remington and 140 Nosler Partition. A friend of mine turned a 6.5 x 55 model 96 into an Elk Rifle for his daughter-in-law. She has shot quit a few with the 140 NP bullet. I would not try to put that bullet up the rear. Now if I had a 160 grain solid, loaded in, yup.
Best regards,

Saw this over in the Medium Bore forum.
MARK H. YOUNG
"I took a shot on a big bull elk going dead away with my '06 shooting 180 TSX at 2740. The bull literally fell to the left once hit and was stone dead when we got to it. Penetration was from left hip into the chest destroying everything on the way. Take your '06 it will work great."

I have shot many elk/deer with small calibers and with success, but you are at a disadvantage as to range, animal position, and many other conditions. You will probably have to let a lot of animals just walk away, I know I have. Another problem is I have seen guys shoot when they should not have and the animal was lost because they were shooting too light a rifle. Everybody says Oh not me, but that's not the case in many instances.

On an expensive trophy bull hunt I would recommend that one should shoot the largest caliber he can shoot well..I see no point in being undergunned, its normally done so for the worst of reasons..

I think it's good insurance to use a caliber that will shoot thru lengthwise any animal you are hunting, because if you wound one your next shots will almost always be going away from you and a long wet tracking job is miserable, and ruins your hunt, as does losing a animal.

If you have a lot of elk, and you can let them walk off without hesitation, if you have the time and can afford to pass them up until you get within very short range then a 22 L.R. is an elk rifle. I had to do this for many years in my youth when I used the 25-35 and 250-3000, I waited for a 100 or 200 yard broad side shot.

I don't know many hunters who can demonstrate that kind of control...I would prefer to use my .338 and take about any shot presented to me including a going So. Texas heart shot and be done with it. A going south shot is about as deadly and quick as a shot can be with a large caliber, it tears up everything inside and they make damn few tracks if any..

Just offered for consideration, I'm not a caliber cop!

You are quite right Ray and this applies to most animals although one could argue that for say roe deer an 222/223 is more than adequate but usually the hunting restriction in some countries force the use of larger calibres. I too have tended to use larger calibres for hunting hoofed animals for the very reasons you have noted.

I guess the OP was asking if the smaller calibres would work on elk as he was very keen on using one or other of the 25's he has and he did say he would not be an irresponsible shooter, indicating he would restrict himself to suitable shots.

Of course the smaller calibres have very successfully taken all the hoofed animals in the world, as always like with any calibre big or small, provided the shot is placed properly.

I think we have all discussed this here or round campfires and I think we generally agree that patience, shot placement and good bullets of any reasonable calibre will deliver the goods.

My point in my first post was not so much which calibre may or may not be better but it was relating my experience or knowledge of elk here in NZ at least and how they have been shot. I do often read of how "tough" elk are to shoot and nothing short of the big magnum boomers will do the job (for some).

That is not the experience here when compared to the toughness of red deer which I don't think you have in the States?

A friend of mine used a 243Win when employed to do a lot of culling of Wapati and Red deer in Fiordland for the then Forestry Department in earlier years.

BTW, red deer do cross with wapati so we have wapati cross animals in Fiordland now, I don't know if the red deer toughness or tenacity for life comes through into the wapati cross animal.

Eagle, does red deer crossing with other deer explain where Rudolph the red nosed reindeer came from?

Ray, thank you for your kind words of wisdom. You're exactly spot on, and I am in agreement that generally, a person should carry the heaviest caliber they can shoot well. I really have enjoyed this thread, and as always, I have gained knowledge, or been reminded of many useful lessons.

As stated earlier. I will more than likely take my .338-06 AI, a .270, or a .300 WSM. I sure do like the .25-06, and honestly would feel very confident with it. But! There's plenty a whitetail, and antelope to look forward to with the .25's. It will have it's day!

Hope everyone has a great day. We are enjoying a beautiful 5" blanket of snow today in Alabama!

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Eagle, does red deer crossing with other deer explain where Rudolph the red nosed reindeer came from?

The Rudolph I remember had a stopped up nose when he talked. I really couldn't tell, did he have an Aussie accent?

Enjoyed your post Eagle!

A responsible hunter should know what he is capable of and what his equipment is capable of. So long as he doesn't try to exceed that then caliber size shouldn't be much of an issue.

FWIW, for my next elk hunt, I am contemplating taking my .264 WM with 140 gr pills instead on my 375 H&H. Now to choose a bullet.

I hunted with a big group in Wyoming for 20 years and my rifle I started with was a 270 using 150 gr. Speer bullets. After a couple of years and the same number of elk I went to a 30-06. It is flat out a better elk rifle than the 270. In the 90's a 25-06 fad went through our little group and the number of hit elk that were not recovered doubled. Much of our shooting was at elk that had been pushed through and out of timber so they were moving rather quickly through trees. If there wasn't snow on the ground the little rifles would have lost another 25% at least. Sure under perfect shot conditions the little rifle will work just fine. In my experience "perfect" shots are not all that common. And elk can be tough beasts indeed.

I'd use a 25-06 in a heartbeat if it was my only rifle. Thank God it's not and never has been. (I've use a "two bit ought six" for years and years but will never do so on elk)

I've grown up and reached senior citizen age in elk country and cannot remember a year without chasing them.

There are too many instances where an elk can cleanly be taken with an elk cartridge but not with a marginal round..... but hey... do whatever you want. It's your hunt, not mine!
Zeke

The only reason I have killed some fairly good size animals with very small rifles-22Hornet, 223,& 257R---was because they were the rifle I had in my hands at the time the animal popped up. I was not specifically hunting them. If you are an excellent marksman and have enough self control to pass all but the very closest shots(under 100yds) then use small caliber with premium bullets. However, if there is very slim chance of such close shots your best bet is something bigger than a 308. 300WinMag and up.

The above statement is my opinion and the way I hunt. Other experiences may differ.

I would grab one of my RUM rifles or my 375H&H. I am proficient with the 375 to 300yds. The RUM ctgs much farther. That being said I would still try to get as close as possible. Then get 100yds closer.

I grew up in CO and have personally taken about 25 elk and I've been in on the taking of around 100 others that I didn't shoot. I've seen elk taken with everything from a 45 lb recurve bow to a 375 H&H mag. Some were taken cleanly, some needed multiple hits. The smallest rifle I have seen used was a .243 and it was used twice on cows. Both ended up on the game pole. But the guy that used that lived around elk all year, knew their habits, could wait for the perfect shot and knew where to place that little 100 gr bullet.

My take on it is the .25s are legal and they will take elk. Heck, I've seen elk taken with the 25-06 but have no experience with the Roberts. So, if you want to use them, have at it. But remember you will need to be very careful about how the animal is standing and you need to be able to put the first round in the right place. if you can't do either, don't shoot. Elk deserve better than that and chasing a wounded one all over the countryside isn't a lot of fun.

My personal favorite elk rifle is a 7mm Mag but I tend to hunt more open country and like the flat shooting. When I'm in heavy timber I carry either a 450 Marlin or a 9.3x62 Mauser. I wouldn't hesitate much to hunt elk with a .25 but I would take my own advice and be very careful of the shot I'd take.

I live amongst elk, Moose, deer, antelope and bear..I have the whole season to poke around and find one to shoot..I know I can kill an elk with my 25-35 Win or 250 Savage, and I have, but I don't mind watching a monster bull walk off because he was a tad too far out there, or going South at 25 yards.

If I was doing a guided hunt in Idaho and paying the big bucks and all that travel or coming up from Texas or Penn. I would be pretty foolish to pack a light gun to an elk camp. You only get so many chances and you have to be prepared to take advantage of the moment and make the less than ideal shot, Your in the real world of hunting not of TV messing with the scope adjustments and waiting minutes to take it off safety, because it may be a big bull going hell bent for leather thru the black timber at 10 to 30 yards or a grazing elk in a meadow 400 yards. Its up to you to get what you paid for, because they only guarantee you a shot of some sort, not a kill.
I have seen elk lost or tracked for several days when properly hit with such calibers as the 270, 7x57, 30-06 and even a few with 300 magnums, a big 1000 lb. bull elk can sometimes demonstrate toughness that's unbelievable, as most seasoned elk hunters and experienced guides know. I hate to see hunters disappointed, so I'm in the biggest gun you can shoot well...As for the locals, its there call and I know it works for them to use a small caliber, they have the time and time is what makes hunting successful/

Always struck me as the right bullet, to match the game you're going after, along with shot placement ( and the shooter being able to put it there, a gun he isn't afraid of the recoil)...

is much more important, than the caliber...

met a friends grandma in Montana, who was Indian and lived on a Reservation.. and she had elk running in the yard each season...

but her rifle to taking several elk each season was her 22.250.... at 4 ft 10, that was what she could shoot...

she understood what shot placement was, and that's what she had....

a 257 Roberts with a partition will be fine, if you know where your bullet should go, you can put it there and you understand the range limitation of a partition, that it needs to be traveling at least 1800 fps to properly open up ....

and lastly, what type of hunter are you?

do you go for the hunt and experience, or do you go demanding your tag is filled due to the cost...I prefer the former instead of the latter...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
what type of hunter are you?

do you go for the hunt and experience, or do you go demanding your tag is filled due to the cost...I prefer the former instead of the latter...

I am the former without a doubt. Unless I had an opportunity to kill a really nice 6X6, i would be happy with a big juicy, good eating cow! Nothing against horns, but why take a small bull, for the freezer vs a good cow?

The harvest is the icing on the cake for me. Not that I don't plan for, and expect to fill my tag, but the success of a great hunt isn't totally dependent on the kill.

I love elk hunting. The right country, the right weather, the presence of animals, and the ones your sharing it with, have a huge impact on a great hunt imo. Each to his own opinion about what makes a hunt fun, and a success, but ethical, and sensible taking of game is important to me. I will not take a shot that doesn't have an extremely high probability of being a one shot kill. I won't be hunting elk this year with my 25-06. Jury's still out considering the 300 WSM, 338-06 AI, 280 AI, 300 H&H, 35 Whelen, or a .270.
Going to hunt Colorado this year. An area I've hunted a lot over the years. Should be great!

the former owner-of-camp-cooley 's son uses a 25-06 for eland -- twice a year ...

How big is Camp Cooley? I recall its pretty small and suspect one could get by with a 30-30 from what I've been told at Dallas..I would like to shoot and Eland there, I think Eland is the best meat of all the wild game.