I am sure all these small cased 6.5's are fine for target and punching holes in paper; the targets haven't got four legs and cannot run away !

To suggest shooting the small cased 6.5's at deer sized game at 500 yards is not right or sensibly.

No matter what bullet weight is used
120 - 160 grs it may not open up sufficiently at long ranges. In addition if used on large deer it is unlikely to have enough destructive force to prove immediately lethal and the animal may run off for a long distance and might not be recovered.

I do not view the 6.5's as highly versatile cartridges, for reliability 100 to 150 yards or at the outside 200 yards should be the maximum range they should be used at on deer sized game.

If a person wishes to use a 6.5 for longer range shooting then they would be better served with the .264 Win magnum or the 6.5x68.

Personally, I believe if shooting large animals at 500 yards is desired then the .300 magnums with 180gr bullets are the right tools.

Just recently, on the 2nd of September in fact I had the opportunity to take two very large deer at 250 yards, not long range, one hour after sunset with an 8x68 which dropped both animals on the spot.

I mention this as I would not have attempted the above if I was carrying a rifle chambered for a small cased 6.5 as I know that they are not capable of such performance.

Good grief....

quote:

I know that they are not capable of such performance.

And what you "know", ain't so.

perhaps, but not in our lifetime...

Bought a 6.5 Creedmoor in a Ruger American Predator under $400 mounted a scope, adjusted trigger and free floated barrel.

Last 5 shot group at 100 yards, 120 gr Factory A Max .43" . 20 rounds fired pretty impressive, and Hornady lists there factory load. So easy to duplicate. Pretty impressive rifle and cartridge. 20 rounds fired total.




My custom 6.5 X 284 best group was around 1.3"

quote:

Originally posted by mackey:

Just recently, on the 2nd of September in fact I had the opportunity to take two very large deer at 250 yards, not long range, one hour after sunset with an 8x68 which dropped both animals on the spot.

I mention this as I would not have attempted the above if I was carrying a rifle chambered for a small cased 6.5 as I know that they are not capable of such performance.

The big mullies here in Colorado just must me a bunch of Panzy @$$'s. With a 257 Roberts, Nosler 115 Partitions through the clock works at 400 yards makes their heart stop. Blood pressure drops within about 11 seconds. Dear are pretty quick, so they can sometimes make it a couple hundred yard in that amount of time. If a long range Bob can make them lay down, then a 6.5mm 140 Partition is going to eat their lunch. No disrespect intended, but I call HORSEFEATHERS!
Matt

ColoradoMatt

The point I wish to put across is that the small cased 6.5's are not suitable for every situation,if you are shooting in large open areas where after the shot the deer can be viewed 'running away few hundred yards' as you say, then a hunter may be able to pull it off provided he is presented with a suitable angle on the animal and conditions are satisfactory.

If on the other hand the animal is standing near dense timber or in a small clearing in heavy cover out to 500 yard and at last legal shooting light, then I think hunters using small calibres
are putting themselves at distinct disadvantage especially as you tell us they may run for a few hundred yards after a hit.

Everybody knows it is possible to kill large animals with small calibres at long range but wounding and long follow-ups and lost animals is the result a large percentage of the time which most hunters will not openly admit too.

mackey:

Shot placement and bullet performance trump headstamps.

Before you declare "it can't be done" on a forum of experienced hunters and shooters, perhaps you should try it yourself.

Olarmy

I did not say it could not be done, read my previous post carefully.

I said I do not think it is right or sensible to shoot at large game at 500 yards with the small cased 6.5's.

I have shot a very large number of deer with a small 6.5 and that is how I have come to my conclusions, through practical experience and observation of the results in the field.

Bigger calibres with large capacity cases are better for taking on long range shots regardless of the angle the animal may be standing at, rather than handicapping oneself with small cartridges that are just barely capable at such ranges.

A hunter can certainly fire the small 6.5's at game 500 yards away but the results and outcome will not be 100 percent guaranteed on every occasion.

Gregor Woods wrote that he uses the .375 for everything because it takes the doubt out of hunting.

I am saying something similar, if you want to shoot game at 500 yards then use larger calibres
with larger capacity cases instead of the small 6.5's.

quote:

Originally posted by mackey: I had the opportunity to take two very large deer at 250 yards, not long range, one hour after sunset with an 8x68 which dropped both animals on the spot.

I mention this as I would not have attempted the above if I was carrying a rifle chambered for a small cased 6.5 as I know that they are not capable of such performance.

Ok, I concede that you did not say it couldn't be done...you said "they are not capable". And you were referring to shooting deer at 250 yards, not 500.

I have no experience or expertise at shooting deer at 500+ yards. But certainly at 300 or less, a properly constructed 120gr bullet, launched at 2900fps or more, and put in the right place will drop any deer in it's tracks, as quickly as any cartridge.

olarmy

I made my first comment on this topic because a previous poster suggested that his 6.5 was suitable for taking game out to 500 yards, please do read and study all the previous posts on this tread.

I shoot 30 to 40 animals per year and have been doing so since the 1970's, I have used a good variety of cartridges and I believe for long range work and to avoid lost animals in all situations bigger cartridges are best.

I haven't shot very many deer with a .260 but the ones I've shot, didn't go anywhere. One in particular was in the hay meadow across from the house. I shot it while seated on the front porch steps with my wife looking over my shoulder. When the rifle returned from recoil, I couldn't see the deer. I asked my wife, "where'd he go?" and she replied, "he fell down". I went over to the hay meadow and the deer was about as dead as any I've seen. He didn't even kick the grass down around himself. I was using a 140gr Core Lokt bullet and the range was a measured 250 yards.
I kinda think the .260 will be like the 7-08. Not a lot of hype but quietly becoming one of the premier deer cartridges. Like the .270, the .243 has a following that will not consider anything else. As they die off and new hunters come online, they'll see a light recoiling rifle that can throw a bigger ball.

quote:

Originally posted by mackey:
olarmy

I made my first comment on this topic because a previous poster suggested that his 6.5 was suitable for taking game out to 500 yards, please do read and study all the previous posts on this tread.

I shoot 30 to 40 animals per year and have been doing so since the 1970's, I have used a good variety of cartridges and I believe for long range work and to avoid lost animals in all situations bigger cartridges are best.

And I'm not taking issue with your comments about 500 yard shooting. If I were ever to decide to shoot at a game animal at 500+ yards, I'd want something bigger, too.

My disagreement was,is, and will be, with your clearly stated comment that you would not have taken a shot at 250 yards at a deer with a small cased 6.5 because they are not capable.

And I heartily disagree, because I have dropped WAY to many deer in their tracks at that range and a little farther, with 120gr bullets from 257s, and 257AI's to doubt their effectiveness. Just put the bullet in the right place and there is no tracking job.

I am sure the 6.5 Creedmoor is very efficient.

But so is a Toyota Corolla.

But I would rather have a Corvette and 6.5/300 Wby

Maybe I missed the definition of "small cased 6.5" through this thread, but am assumeing that the 6.5-284 is small cased. I am curious what type of performance you require Mackey? While I have to admit I have not made the 500 yard mark on deer. I have shot 3 from between 440 and 487, and with little 125 and 130 grain bullets I got complete penetration and faster on the ground deer than compared to most of my 30 cal. deer shot from 200 to 300 yards. My first deer over 400 yards was a broadside hit on a mature Mule deer. My shot was a little forward and went through both shoulders. The big boy went face down and plowed snow for 15 feet straight into a tree making 20 feet of blood flavored snow cone as he went. For a soft target like deer the 6.5s are not just adequate, they are ideal. Shots at 500 yards near a cliff or deep timber at dark are not advisable with any cartridge since without a CNS hit any deer has a chance at making 100 yards, regardless of caliber or case. Just my own observations.

6.5x284 has a lot going for it for long range deer hunting. The added velocity over the smaller 6.5's will be a big plus and Lapua sells the brass and a lot of folks make great bullets. The ability to give high BC bullets good velocity is a big plus.

I have not used the 6.5-284 but would imagine it is close enough to the .264 Win magnum to make it a viable option for long range work.

Given variations in barrels and loading components the 284 case doesn't offer any great advantage over the 260, Creedmoor, or Swede until you get to the 140 grain and up. Even then, shooting only to 500 yards the advantage is negligible. I guess my point would be any of the expanding game bullets from 120 grains through 140 grains with a pointed tip and a practiced marksman shooting an accurate rifle launching said bullet at 2700 fps or better is perfect for deer. A person may feel better or more confident with the extra 100-300 fps added, but it just isn't even marginally necessary. What's more, the added recoil and muzzle blast are counter productive for many shooters who can't shoot them (magnums) as accurately.

I am impressed with the offhand manner with which folks refer to shooting game at 500+ yards. I hunted Wy and CO for 15 straight years and have shot a grand total of 1 head of BG over 300 yards.
If I want to shoot at a distance, I go to a rifle range; if I'm hunting, to me, the challenge is to get close.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
I am impressed with the offhand manner with which folks refer to shooting game at 500+ yards. I hunted Wy and CO for 15 straight years and have shot a grand total of 1 head of BG over 300 yards.
If I want to shoot at a distance, I go to a rifle range; if I'm hunting, to me, the challenge is to get close.

Well said!

Long range is as overplayed chubby chambers. I'm going ultralight minimalist pop guns for shits and giggles.

But lets not turn this into another 223 thread.

quote:

Originally posted by mackey:
I am sure all these small cased 6.5's are fine for target and punching holes in paper; the targets haven't got four legs and cannot run away !

To suggest shooting the small cased 6.5's at deer sized game at 500 yards is not right or sensibly.

No matter what bullet weight is used
120 - 160 grs it may not open up sufficiently at long ranges. In addition if used on large deer it is unlikely to have enough destructive force to prove immediately lethal and the animal may run off for a long distance and might not be recovered.

I do not view the 6.5's as highly versatile cartridges, for reliability 100 to 150 yards or at the outside 200 yards should be the maximum range they should be used at on deer sized game.

If a person wishes to use a 6.5 for longer range shooting then they would be better served with the .264 Win magnum or the 6.5x68.

Personally, I believe if shooting large animals at 500 yards is desired then the .300 magnums with 180gr bullets are the right tools.

Just recently, on the 2nd of September in fact I had the opportunity to take two very large deer at 250 yards, not long range, one hour after sunset with an 8x68 which dropped both animals on the spot.

I mention this as I would not have attempted the above if I was carrying a rifle chambered for a small cased 6.5 as I know that they are not capable of such performance.

First off the 6.5 Creedmoor is not a small case 6.5 . The Grendel is as is the 6.5/223 .
From my results on caribou and people I know results on deer, black bear and caribou. With the 260 Rem, and 6.5×55 . It is just ideal. . Just like the 7/08 and 308 . They all work great.
I don't know if the Creed will make the 260 Rem . I seriously doubt it. Even tho I think the Creed is a better round. . I find it to be a perfect round for everything from fox to caribou and wouldn't hesitate to use it for moose and black bear. With a tough 130-156/160 gr bullet for close range. And for up to bou out a long way with a bullet like the 140 gr SST.
I've killed lots of deer with 375s, 416s and 458s
And for a chest shot I've found a 243 kills them just as fast. Let alone a 6.5

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
I am impressed with the offhand manner with which folks refer to shooting game at 500+ yards. I hunted Wy and CO for 15 straight years and have shot a grand total of 1 head of BG over 300 yards.
If I want to shoot at a distance, I go to a rifle range; if I'm hunting, to me, the challenge is to get close.

In three trips to Africa, where I took around 90 head of plains game, I never tried a shot longer than 300 yards. The reason is simple. Beyond 250 yards, a bullet takes an appreciable time to reach the target. Hence, when the bullet arrives, the target (animal) may not be where it was when the trigger was pulled.

This happened only once to me, on a Beisa oryx, which was hit about a foot to the rear of where I was holding. My PH was watching through binoculars and saw it move, just as I fired.

The animal ran about a mile before collapsing. Had this not occurred on an open plain, we would have lost him. As it was, he led us quite a chase.

With the rifles, optics, ranging units, and load components we have today 350 yards and in is not a difficult shot. With practice and common sense 500 yards is VERY repeatable as well. To me, hunting is getting ducks into decoys. Putting deer in the freezer is shooting. Different strokes for different folks.

quote:

Originally posted by Quintus:
With the rifles, optics, ranging units, and load components we have today 350 yards and in is not a difficult shot. With practice and common sense 500 yards is VERY repeatable as well..

True, but I would wager that a vanishingly small percentage of licensed deer hunters meet your required prerequisites.

quote:

Originally posted by Quintus:
With the rifles, optics, ranging units, and load components we have today 350 yards and in is not a difficult shot. With practice and common sense 500 yards is VERY repeatable as well. To me, hunting is getting ducks into decoys. Putting deer in the freezer is shooting. Different strokes for different folks.

I read a thesis on long range deer shooting. The fellow seemed quite knowledgable and outlined the special equipment needed and such. He, like anyone else who hopes to succeed, stressed practice, practice, practice. Simply stated, the old saying still has a lot of validity: You can't buy your way into the winners circle. From the various post, too many folks think that you can.

I agree with you Wasbeeman. I see now you can buy what I guess are hunting rifles, for 3 to 7 grand. You still have to be able to shoot it, and at that a lot of guys buying those guns still can't get in "range" of their intended quarry. I also agree with you Olarmy. There are not many people that take the time AND are prudent with their shot selection afield. The only thing I can say is look at the forum you are on. Most of us posting here have some degree of OCD when it comes to shooting and or hunting.

I should have added in my previous post that I have over 50 years experience in competitive high power shooting in ranges out to 1000 yards with iron sights, plus as many years of varmint shooting, where the target was no bigger than my fist and the range out to 400 yards.

I have no lack of confidence in being able to hit what I am aiming at, as long as I can be sure that the target will be in the same spot it was in when I broke the shot.

Unfortunately, game animals are not the same as paper targets.

I entered this discussion to refute the claims of a previous posted who thinks his small 6.5 is suitable for taking deer sized game out to 500 yards.

I explained in previous posts why if you want to shoot game at such ranges with absolute confidence in all situations then it would be better to be equipped with bigger calibres/cartridges.

If you just shoot at a few game animals a year then you might be able to get away with it for a time using a small cased 6.5 at 500 yards, but eventually its limitations for such work will become evident at some stage.

500 yard shots at big game are not worth the risk, even with a 300 superzapper.
Matt.

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
500 yard shots at big game are not worth the risk, even with a 300 superzapper.
Matt.

yup. And you never hear about the shots that go bad or (hopefully) miss.

Who are shooting more than a few deers at 500yards?

Everyone has an opinion and some are based on valid experience and some are not. Hence, some have value to me and others do not. You're all welcome to feel the same way about any of my comments.

Back to the original question: there were excellent points made on the first page of the thread (not so much on the second page IMHO). Neither will "kill" the other since they are the same yet different and the following is very limited in the first place. Both are excellent and seem to be gaining in traction, which is a good thing.

Too many guys shoot big guns poorly and blame the rifle, scope, bullet or cartridge. Can't do that with a little 6.5! Mild shooting, great barrel life, accurate and kills deer-size critters with ease at all "reasonable" distances.

By the way, I'm building the 6.5 Creedmoor, not because I need it or because it's the best cartridge in the world, but simply because I can and I want one to play with. I suspect, based on my real-world experience, it will have no trouble taking deer-size game at all ranges "I" wish to shoot.

There's my 2 cents (that's probably what it's worth to you)

Zeke

The 260 Remington seems like a peach of a deer round. I am guessing that its the 308 win and mostly 7mm-08 that never let the 260 get any ground.

The Creedmoore seems to be DOA even faster than the 260 as a "commercial" hunting round.

What I's like to know is, can a 260 Rem reamer "clean-up" the chamber of a 6.5 Creedmoore?

I've been shooting a 260 Rem with carefully hoarded factory loaded 125 Nosler Partitions into 1" groups and numerous white-tailed deer for over a decade now.

As the great Jim Carmichael opined 30 some years ago, the .264/6.5mm rounds are almost perfect for the above applications and I believe the .260 Rem is the best all-around choice of the bunch.

quote:

Originally posted by Redlander:
What I's like to know is, can a 260 Rem reamer "clean-up" the chamber of a 6.5 Creedmoore?

The Base of the 260 shoulder is .455", the base of the Creemoor shoulder is.462", so it would be pretty sloppy.
Matt.

I have been shooting the 260 Remington for 18 years, since 10/97 when I ordered a Remington 7 stainless/synthetic. There wasn't any factory ammo available, so I resized 100 Winchester/Olin 243 cases, loaded them with the ever reliable 129 Hornady SpirePoint, and went out a couple of weeks later to shoot whitetails. Since then, I have shot dozens of deer and hundreds of coyotes with the 260 and a variety of component bullets. I still have 23 260s.

Last year, I purchased a couple of the Weatherby Vanguards in 6.5 Creedmoor and a barrel from Savage to install on a Marlin XS7 action. The Weatherby Vanguard2 and 6.5 Creedmoor combo is probably the most accurate factory rifle/factory ammo combo that I've owned. The 140 grain Hornady AMax is excellent ammo, much better than any factory ammo every made for the 260. Although I have only shot one whitetail with the Creed, using the 123 grain Hornady SST. Having shot a few deer with the 6.5x55, 256 Newton, 260, 6.5-284, and now the 6.5 Creed, I can't say that I've noticed any meaningful different in performance when the deer have been shot through the lungs.

I think that the 260 works great if the bullets that you want to use fit within the magazine box COAL limits of your preferred rifles. I like the 100 grain Partition, 120 grain BT, 129 grain SpirePoint or SST, and 130 grain AB. The shorter 6.5 Creed case allows the longer 140 grain VLD bullets to fit into typical short action magazine boxes without needing to be seated deeply into the case. So, if you feel the need to shoot 140 grain VLD bullets in a short action, go with the Creed. If you want to shoot very accurate factory ammo, go with the Creed. If you reload, shoot a short action, and feel comfortable shooting cup and core bullets weighing 130 grain or less, the 260 probably offers a little velocity increase, but whether it is enough extra velocity to make a meaningful difference in field performance is up to the individual.

Or so it seems to me.

Excellent reply 260 Rem guy ! Some guys get all bent out of shape on this topic. I've killed 3 caribou so far this fall with my 6.5 Creedmoor. If I hadn't botched the shot on my first one this fall . I would be 3 for 3 with 3 different bullets. However, I did and so I am 4 for 3. I will need to get 2 with 1 shot to overcome that.

No doubt the 260 Rem can duplicate that performance . But as to the topic of the 6.5 Cm doing away with the 260 . I don't think so . In fact. Because of the Creedmoor, more and maybe better bullets are coming out in 6.5 mm So the 260 shooter benefits from the 6.5 Creedmoor.

One thing the .260 has going for it even if manufacturers so producing it in factory offerings is that brass is available everywhere. You can neck down .308/7-08 or neck up .243 brass. What are going to do if the 6.5 Creed brass becomes hard to come by?

I have a Sako 75 in .260 and while a 1/9 twist, it's my absolute favorite deer hunting rig as well as my most accurate factory setup. I'm not sure I could ask for much more.

I think the Creedmore and the .260 will not out live this thread. roger