quote:

Originally posted by Doublegun:
Got dialed in at 100-yards then moved out to 200. I am all over the paper. Then for s&g I take a target out to 300-yards and managed to hit the paper - once out of three shots. (These are full size targets)

Hot Core, with all do respect, he is talking about being "all over the paper" at 200 yards after acceptable groups at 100. It got WORSE at 300.

My .223's will shoot better than that at 200. 1 1/2" groups at 200 are pretty common with decent loads.
On a good day, with a great load, less than 1" at 200 is not uncommon.
I would hope a 220 Swift that shoots acceptable groups at 100 would shoot groups roughly twice that, give or take, at 200--all things being equal; stable platform, wind gusts, etc.

No offense intended. Honestly I have no emotional attachment to my pre-64 .220 Swift. I saw it, I had a jones for a small caliber long-range rifle, the price was right... so I bought it. Now, I'll never give up my 3006 or my 300 H&H but the 220 Swift is another matter.

Tell you what I am going to do: I'll be back at the range next week and, weather permitting, I'll give it another go with a well scrubbed bore and practice with the trigger and I'll keep the range at 200 yards.

Now, let's say I decide to bail on the Swift. I realize that this is an entirely different discussion, but what rifles should I consider replacing it with and in what caliber?

Have at it.

Say, Doublegun, did you mention the twist rate of this gun? I did glance through your posts and didn't see the loads you were using either. Just asking because I have an idea ..... ! (Besides offering the gun to me!) (Which you could ... !)

Hey Flippy, Yes, I saw that and I agree with you that there is some kind of problem with the 220Swift. And I'd also agree that it might just be Copper in the barrel. Lots of excellent cleaners on the market today that will help him remove it if it is present. That is where I would start on it too.

I do not want to jinx his 220Swift, but since it was "used", it is impossible to know how it has been treated by the previous owner. Maybe it is OK and maybe it has been fried, or maybe the Muzzle Crown needs squaring. Just lots of things to eliminate on it.

If Double gun is not using Match Grade Bullets in Match Prepped Cases after running the Creighton Audette Load Development Method to determine his most accurate Load, then it could also be that simple. Sometimes it is possible to toss together a load with a nonMatch Grade bullet and it shoot great. But that would be the exception for me.

And if 200-300yds is the most Doublegun will be shooting, then the 220Swift should be made to shoot well, or stick a new barrel on it.
-----

Hey Doublegun, I apparently got this thread tied to another long distance thread "in my mind". I agree with Flippy that the 220Swift should do great for you at 200-300yds. Forget what I said about the 30-06 unless you want to go out to 500yds and beyond. That could also be done with the 220Swift, but a tighter twist would help it with the Bullets typically used at those distances.

If you decide you do enjoy longer distance shooting(beyond 400-500yds), then would be the time to get a rifle which is easier to make shoot well at those distances. There are a lot of tricks to be learned at 300yds, just in position, muscle, and breath control.

Best of luck with the 220Swift. I hope it is just Copper in the bore.

quote:

Originally posted by Doublegun:

Now, let's say I decide to bail on the Swift. I realize that this is an entirely different discussion, but what rifles should I consider replacing it with and in what caliber?

Have at it.

Well if you like the action and stock then you could rebarrel it to something interesting and get a semi-custom gun with match chamber and barrel of your choosing. Those are pretty much all shooters. You could choose from a lot of calibers that have the same bolt face (.473") of the 220 Swift


something like the 243 Ackley would be interesting, this is the plain 243 Winchester which you could shoot in an Ackley to fireform


Pick a good barrel like a Krieger, Shilen, Hart, Barlein or Brux and get the twist you want, barrel length you want, neck size you want and contour you want. Should be able to push the 70 gr bullets to 3700 fps with a 1 in 12 twist or the 100 gr bullets to 3250 fps with a 1 in 10 twist.

Lots of dies available here.

That would be an excellent song dog caliber or with the right bullet good for deer.

Since it is a pre-64 M70 and has some collector value, I would be imclined to sell it than to re-barrel or re-chamber the rifle and start with a clean slate.

As far as alternatives go, I would not mind staying with a 220 Swift or moving to a 22-250. Something relatively versatile that would be accurate out to 300 + yards and packing enough whamp to kill coyote sized game.

I have always had a jones for a Sako 75 chambered in .243 but that seems a little big for varmits and small for deer sized game and for which I rely on my 3006.

Thoughts?

The psychological side of shooting at greater distances - "I'll never hit that!" - is a lot easier to overcome if the shooter ceases to think of groups in inches & thinks MOA instead.
Once I made this transition my confidence level grew & my groups shrank accordingly.
My eyesight is the determining factor now, as 1MOA @ 100yds turns into 2-2.5MOA @ 500yds due to difficulty returning to a consistent aiming point.

Giving up smoking has helped too - I'm starting to breathe again rather than gasp.

quote:

Giving up smoking has helped too - I'm starting to breathe again rather than gasp.

I am glad you have done that. My brother didn't and is now paying for it - poor chap! I don't know how long he has left.

Say, woods, doesn't the 220 Swift have a rebated case head? Other than the head, the 220 Swift is very close to the 303 Brit case. Both cases designed by James Paris Lee? Or did he take the design from an earlier cartridge?

Hey 303 Guy

No the 220 Swift is a semi-rebated and .473"


while the 303 British is a rimmed case at .540"


Big difference!

And don't forget to add in the effect of the coriolis force....

quote:

Originally posted by Doublegun:
Since it is a pre-64 M70 and has some collector value, I would be imclined to sell it than to re-barrel or re-chamber the rifle and start with a clean slate.

Hey Doublegun, Just to make sure you are clear - I am not a M70 fan. I had them and used them for a long time, but I prefer other brands. I'm saying this so you understand my bias against them.

Selling a M70 sounds like a great idea to me. But if you like them, stick with them. I like being able to pull a rifle from the safe and the Safety Lever is in the same location on all of them. Less to create a minor problem if a HUGE Trophy Buck appears.

quote:

As far as alternatives go, I would not mind staying with a 220 Swift or moving to a 22-250. Something relatively versatile that would be accurate out to 300 + yards and packing enough whamp to kill coyote sized game.

I know the 22-250 can be quite accurate and I'd guess current manufacture 220Swifts would be too. I just use the normal twist(whatever it is) in my current 223Rem and it is fine for 45, 50, 52, 53 and 55gr bullets. I normally carry 50gr PLHP Rem bullets in it and it does just fine for me out to 300yds on dog size game. I do miss a few Crows way out there, but I can't shoot like I used to. Haven't tried other bullet weights and they may do fine as well.

I believe the trend is toward a bit faster twist so heavier bullets can be stabilized. Hopefully someone who prefers the heavier bullets would jump in and give a rifle recommendation. If you like a 22-250, I can recommend any "V-series" or style Remington. They tend to have Chambers cut on the minimum dimensions which tends to help accuracy. Don't know what the twist is in them though.

I think someone mentioned that Savage is producing a fast twist Blot Action, but that could be all wrong.

A HEAVY barrel would help you during the learning stages, but is more than necessary for the field. I've had both and like both. The HEAVY barrel rifles help negate breathing and heart-beat induced movement - great for learning. But, Light barrels are sure nice afield if you move around with a rifle a good bit.

quote:

I have always had a jones for a Sako 75 chambered in .243 but that seems a little big for varmits and small for deer sized game and for which I rely on my 3006.

The Sako's were always a bit too heavy for me 20-30 years ago. They eventually reduced the weight and became more attractive. Then Sako had the "Exploding Models" which didn't do a lot for my faith in them, and less in the Sako Management who choose to ignore the people getting maimed.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't get one, perhaps that is all over with.

BTW - I have no idea what the twist-rate is on this particular rifle. I have never considered that level of detail. In terms of ammo, I have been shooting Hornady 50 gr and 55 gr Vmax ammo bought over the counter. (yes, I know I should be reloading but I am just not into it).

quote:

Originally posted by Doublegun:
...yes, I know I should be reloading but I am just not into it.

The current Factory Ammo is better than it has ever been. Only problem is - your rifle might not like what you have tried.

Same with Reloads to some extent. Just because "we" want to use a specific Bullet or Powder, there is no guarantee that the rifle will shoot it well. However, with Reloads, you have the ability to "fine tune" the Load to your specific rifle.

I can't imagine a person ever being able to learn to shoot well at distance with factory ammo unless he is very lucky.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Doublegun:
...yes, I know I should be reloading but I am just not into it.

The current Factory Ammo is better than it has ever been. Only problem is - your rifle might not like what you have tried.

Same with Reloads to some extent. Just because "we" want to use a specific Bullet or Powder, there is no guarantee that the rifle will shoot it well. However, with Reloads, you have the ability to "fine tune" the Load to your specific rifle.

I can't imagine a person ever being able to learn to shoot well at distance with factory ammo unless he is very lucky.

Best of luck to you.

I agree with your assesment that there is something amiss (no pun intended ) with this Swift.

Factory ammo is indeed better than it has been in AGES, but his rifle may not like it.

quote:

Originally posted by Flippy:
... there is something amiss ...

I did not get out to the range last night. Too much wind and rain, so...

I have actually tried 3-different types of ammo: 50 and 55 gr VMAX from Horrnady and then a box of 50 gr ammo from Remington. I do think the 50 gr VMAX shot better than the others.

Question: IF there is something a-miss with this rifle, would I be able to shoot tight groups at 100-yards? As I said, I am shooting tight sub-1/2" groups at 100-yards?

Another question: going forward, how many rounds can I expect to shoot through my Swift before fouling starts to effect accuracy?

Thanks again

Doublegun this is a mystery, it takes a really damn good shot to shoot half inch groups with anything, and so you can obviously shoot.
Shooting at 200 and 300 yards is no more difficult than shooting at 100 really, true there is a little drop, but that is not your problem because that is predictable and consistent if things are right.
And wind drift is a factor with any caliber, but on a calm day with a 220 it is not a factor of any concern either.
Honestly,, I would say it was you.
Relax, tell someone a joke, and don't take it so serious.
If you are shooting that well at 100, you can shoot well at 300.

Thanks. I do take it seriously, but I keep it in perspective. With my pre-64 3006 and 4x Leupold I can shoot 1/2" at 100 but that opens to about 2" at 200 yards. I focus on the target and and they tend to go where I want them to go.

I guess I did not realize how much more difficult it would be at 300-yards with increased optic, quality and power.

Hey Doublegun, When you began shooting at the 200yd targets did you reach up and readjust the AO to remove the parallax?

If so, did you go by the numbers on the AO or look through the scope and make the adjustment?

Are you shooting at the corner of a Black Square or at a circle?

When you look through the scope, can you see your heartbeat or breathing move the reticle around?

Have you been drinking a lot of coffee or tea?

When you began shooting at the 200yd targets did you reach up and readjust the AO to remove the parallax?

YES

If so, did you go by the numbers on the AO or look through the scope and make the adjustment?

LOOKED THROUGH THE SCOPE (there are no numbers)

Are you shooting at the corner of a Black Square or at a circle?

BLACK SQUARE

When you look through the scope, can you see your heartbeat or breathing move the reticle around?

YES

Have you been drinking a lot of coffee or tea?

NO

This is my scope (except the AO is a dial on the side of the scope)

http://www.leupold.com/hunting...6-5-20x40mm-adj-obj/

You might need to try a heavier bullet. If you have a fast twist then you may be overstabilizing the bullet, especially at those speeds.

That would make sense to me that you have a fairly good group at 100 and then the bullet gets squirrely at the longer distance because of overstabilization.

Hey Doublegun, You did all that the same way I would. Woods might be correct and the guys that mentioned the Wind Flags might be of help to you.

Make sure you are shooting at the "corner" of the Black Square, not the overall Square. I have Leupold Scopes similar to that one and it should do fine.

I've shot so long without Wind Flags that I subconsciously watch the tips of the weeds and tree leaves. Though they are not as good as Flags.

If there is a chance you could have someone else shoot the rifle who can shoot well at distance, that would eliminate all this guessing. It could be as simple as your position changing slightly between shots or the wind blowing those Bullets out.

It might even help to go on and begin using the 30-06 with 165gr-180gr Ballistic Tip or Match Grade Bullets. I think Federal loads them, but that could be wrong. Only real problem here is the cost. And move the Scope over to this one unless it has a 20x on it already.

Whatever you do, save the Cases. You may decide to take up Reloading in the future and you can save somemoney there.

I'm out of guesses. Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
You might need to try a heavier bullet. If you have a fast twist then you may be overstabilizing the bullet, especially at those speeds.

That would make sense to me that you have a fairly good group at 100 and then the bullet gets squirrely at the longer distance because of overstabilization.

Or it could be exactly the opposite.
The twist may be fast enough to stabilize the heavier bullets at 100, but as they slow a bit, they move around some, wobble, whatever. I never saw you list the twist of the barrel. Do you know what it is?

I used to make targets out of pizza boxes (had a nearly unlimited supply). I took a black magic marker and drew about a 3" + on them. Pretty easy to line up the crosshairs on an +.

Hot core is correct on having at least one other person of some competence shoot this rifle, both at 100 and at 200, as you say just for s&g. I did this for an older guy at the range one day, and it proved his rifle and loads were OK. Unfortunately it was him...

The other option is similar to what Hot Core said. Take another rifle (a .223, .243, 30-'06 or what ever) of known accuracy and shoot it side by side. If it is wind gusts it will effect the other one somewhat also, depending on the cartridge of course.
See if you can find a decent .223 to shoot. The 220 Swift is what the .223 wants to be when it grows up.
A .223 should be affected by the wind as much or more than your 220 would be.

He mentioned he is shooting a 50 and 55 gr bullet. If he is shooting anything faster than 1 in 12 then he is shooting a light bullet for that twist at that speed. The more velocity you have the better stabilization you get at a certain twist, so a fast twist with a fast light bullet could overstabilize.

And 50 and 55 gr is just a medium bullet for a 22 caliber rifle.

I did not think that it was possible to over stabilize

Perhaps "overstabilize" might be the wrong word. I think it is possible to put so much spin on a bullet that it will wobble in it's flight path before "going to sleep". Sorta like a light top that you spin real fast that has a few wobbles at first and then settles in to spin in one place so that it appears almost motionless as opposed to a heavy top that can settle in earlier.

I am just guessing here, but if doublegun would just take a cleaning rod and figure out the twist then that might lead to shooting the appropriate bullet for that barrel.

If he has a 1/8, 1/9 or 1/10 then he needs to step up to 65 or 70 gr bullets and he would get lots of better results.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Perhaps "overstabilize" might be the wrong word. I think it is possible to put so much spin on a bullet that it will wobble in it's flight path before "going to sleep".

That could be.
What usually happens when a bullet is "overstabilized" (really not sure of another term that describes this better, help if you can) is it leaves a vapor trail just before it blows up. Ka-blewie!

Maybe he is spinning them just before the point the bullets are actually coming apart and they are distorting and becoming unstable and thus less accurate at greater ranges.

At 220 Swift velocities, 100 yards happens pretty quickly.

There are too many unknowns. He needs to figure out his twist rate first and eliminate at least one variable.

It is nearly impossible to figure out an answer to a problem, when you only have about half the information you need.

quote:

That could be.
What usually happens when a bullet is "overstabilized" (really not sure of another term that describes this better, help if you can) is it leaves a vapor trail just before it blows up. Ka-blewie!

This seems to happening with several different bullets - the group opening up that is. It has been explained to me that an 'overspun' bullet can distort on exiting the muzzle, causing accuracy problems. This is opposed to actually blowing up.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
It has been explained to me that an 'overspun' bullet can distort on exiting the muzzle, causing accuracy problems. This is opposed to actually blowing up.

That is what I was trying to say, thanks.
I am guessing that they are spinning fast enough to partially separate (or ?) but not enough to actually come apart.

He needs to figure out his twist rate!!

but then 1/2 inch groups at a 100 would not be possible...

I am kind of surprised that the twist rate of a standard pre-64 M70 Swift is not widely known by those of you that have one. Not trying to be a SA here - I just thought that would be common knowlege (although I certainly don't know it).

I spent 5-hours in my car yesterday driving from Indiana back up to Michigan and thought about this discussion. If there is anything causing a problem with the rifle I am willing to bet it is the fouling in the barrel and not that the barrel has been shot out. I would rate the rifle at 85% (1955 mfg) and while I know the rifle has been carried and shot, I don't think it has a lot of wear for a rifle of that age. I would think a rifle that has been shot-out would show a lot more wear than this one. Anyway, I am sure it is possible.

I am also sure that my inexperience at shooting long distances has something to do with it altough, I consider myself a pretty good shot with both handguns and long guns. There are certainly many more variables with the smaller caliber and longer distance.

This has given me a great deal of respect for those who can shoot well out to 300 yards and beyond - there is a lot more to it than just throwing on a big scope and pointing at a target. This was my primary motivation behind my initial post and questions.

Thanks Woods.

quote:

Big difference!

True. But also note the similarities. Body taper and size, length and so on. I got confused there - semi-rimmed not rebated. (I had thought one time, of forming '220 Swift from 303 Brit cases to make a rimmed 220 Swift, to work on a Lee Enfield but I was given a 303-25 so dropped that idea.)

Back to topic - the past two week-ends has shown me the effect of state of mind and/or body. My rifle that shot well suddenly can't hit a thing! Test the rifle on a target from a steady rest and it is bang on! That leaves me! I have been unwell and am still not quite right. Ring a bell? Not to say this is the case now but just that the fourth shot syndrome is quite possible.

i think the biggest thing when shooting at 300 yards when first starting is to have someone with you spoting who is already comfortable shooting at that rage. weird stuff happens at that range and beyond with wind and if you don't have someone who can talk straight it can eat at your self confidence.

i shot for the first time today with open sights at 400 yards and had a blast. only put 4 in a 5 inch circle out of a BUNCH of rounds but felt really good about it. had a good spotter who watched me and the target. good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by 390ish:
i think the biggest thing when shooting at 300 yards when first starting is to have someone with you spoting who is already comfortable shooting at that rage. weird stuff happens at that range and beyond with wind and if you don't have someone who can talk straight it can eat at your self confidence.

Good point!
I think that's why my oldest son is such a good shot at long distances in the wind. He shoots High Power competition, and always has someone coaching/spotting for him.
He got his Masters card his first year shooting.
Don

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
but then 1/2 inch groups at a 100 would not be possible...

That is the killer right there.
If the barrel was shot out, or severely fouled, that would kill the 100 yard groups also.

Unless the bullets are spinning just fast enough they distort while in flight and it takes over 100 yards for them to fail.

Some friends of mine loaded a bunch of ammo for a 22-250 several years ago to go shoot sage rats.
To make a long story short, the temperature variance between loading and chronographing, and the temperature when they were shooting made the bullets fly fast enough to come apart, but not for about 90 yards of flight.

It took them a while to figure it out, too when they could not hit anything.
They started at 25 yards and kept moving the target farther out until they could not were no longer hitting the paper. The groups before 75 were pretty good. At 75 they opened up some and at about 90 they disappeared, POOF!!

quote:

The groups before 75 were pretty good. At 75 they opened up some and at about 90 they disappeared, POOF!!

That is indeed interesting!

You know, another point mentioned is wind drift. Well, wind drift with the swift and 22-250 is surprizingly little! Even with low BC bullets. Thing is, at the relative air flow incidence angle the bullet undergoes at those velocities, it takes a real strong wind to make a significant difference. Check it out on JBM - Calculations.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

The groups before 75 were pretty good. At 75 they opened up some and at about 90 they disappeared, POOF!!

That is indeed interesting!

You know, another point mentioned is wind drift. Well, wind drift with the swift and 22-250 is surprizingly little! Even with low BC bullets. Thing is, at the relative air flow incidence angle the bullet undergoes at those velocities, it takes a real strong wind to make a significant difference. Check it out on JBM - Calculations.

I found it interesting also. They had never seen this before (combined reloading experience 50+ years).
I know that site. I have used it before--the bullet BC calculator is cool and very handy.

I have Sierra Exterior Ballistics program and did the drop, deflection calculations when comparing the 204 Ruger with the 220 Swift (and 22-250 Rem) a while back.
The 22-250 and Swift (and the 204--the baby Swift) suffer very little wind deflection even with short, lightweight bullets out to 300+.

It seems a small bullet moving very, very fast is still quite a force to be reckoned with.

quote:

Originally posted by Flippy:
I will let you know my results with the butcher paper. I planned on trying just painting the slick side with cheap spray paint and seeing how that works. I planned on substituting the butcher paper for the poster board as in the post above and seeing how that works.
I have most of a roll of carpet mask from a project a couple years ago that I can experiment with.

If I can make a shoot-n-c type target that is 24X24 for less than $2.00, that is a bargain.

How about for less than ten cents apiece?

It works great!

I simply painted the slick side of butcher paper and bingo! El cheapo Shoot-N-C's.

No need for carpet mask, just paint and shoot.
Use cheap FLAT BLACK PAINT, I grabbed glossy and there was a lot of glare on it.

quote:

Originally posted by Flippy:

quote:

Originally posted by bucko:
but then 1/2 inch groups at a 100 would not be possible...

That is the killer right there.
If the barrel was shot out, or severely fouled, that would kill the 100 yard groups also.

Unless the bullets are spinning just fast enough they distort while in flight and it takes over 100 yards for them to fail.

Some friends of mine loaded a bunch of ammo for a 22-250 several years ago to go shoot sage rats.
To make a long story short, the temperature variance between loading and chronographing, and the temperature when they were shooting made the bullets fly fast enough to come apart, but not for about 90 yards of flight.

It took them a while to figure it out, too when they could not hit anything.
They started at 25 yards and kept moving the target farther out until they could not were no longer hitting the paper. The groups before 75 were pretty good. At 75 they opened up some and at about 90 they disappeared, POOF!!

Well I guess about anything could possibly happen true enough.
I did have some really hot loaded 22-250 rounds evaporate the bullet in the air .
And yes it was out there about 75 yards or so that you would simply see the little grey cloud go poof in the air...
So it is conceivable that they could group that good and then blow up,, but yet not blow up,, but yet still incur enough damage after the 100 yard mark to cause them to go cattywampus after that...
So it is possible I suppose, hate to be betting on the odds of it happening that way though.

Personally I think that it might have something to do with dicking with the parralex adjustment on his scope.
It seems to be one of the major variables involved that could change things.
It is not needed for the relatively short distances that he is talking about.

Oh,, and by the way I forgot to thank you for the coolest idea of the year.
Painting the butcher paper was brilliant.

Your shotgun patterned quite well on it ...