Gerard;

Very very attractive young ladies!

congrats!

/

Chris,

quote:

You are dead wrong on your above presumptious statement, as you pretend to know exactly how and where Gregor Woods is hunting.

You over react again. I pretend nothing, I only know about Gregor what I have read in Magnum Magazine. Considering that I may have the wrong impression, I grabbed 9 Magnums off the top of the pile in the workshop and looked at hunting related articles by Gregor. He writes well and I enjoyed the reading. The articles were:
1. Hunting Impala with a 12ga
2. Sable and Zebra in the bushveld.
3. East Cape plains game hunt with two animals taken at 200 and 250m
4. Hunting Francolin in the bush.

I would say that most people would class the articles as written by someone who is not given to long distance shooting.

But you sidestep the matter we are discussing. Other than you, I have yet to encounter someone who limits the 7x57 to bush ranges only.

It is a wonderfully versatile caliber and you should try some long distance work with it some time.

quote:

t is a wonderfully versatile caliber and you should try some long distance work with it some time.

Right on!

The 7 X 57 when properly handloaded is nearly equivalent to a 270 Win and this makes it a long range potential anytime.

For those that wish to shoot the 175 grain spirepoints the range will diminiosh somewhat but there's still plenty of muscle in that old cartridge.

Alf,
Good question and it goes to the core of why there is resistance to drop down in weight when loading monos. The short answer is that, with long distance competition it is more important that the bullet flies correctly over the back of the trajectory and stability on impact is not important. A hunting bullet is seldom applied at distances where the correct nosing over of the bullet becomes important but stability on impact is vital.

Slender boat tail bullets of similar weight to the "traditional" round nose flat base bullets of 173 and 175gr would be too long to stabilise for hunting purposes, even if made from jacketed lead. A spitser boat tail mono of 175gr would be similar in length to a jcketed lead bullet weighing 210gr and that is clearly absurd unless you run a 1:7" twist on your 7x57. (Been there done that.)

SD has a connection to BC but so has Cd. By dropping the SD and increasing the Cd number, BC can be maintained. You are implying that a drop in weight (and therefore SD) always reduces velocity retention and that is not so.

What is a given is that a light bullet with the same BC as a heavier one can be launched at higher speeds and will therefore shoot flatter, with less wind drift and with shorter time of flight. This makes job number one much easier. Job number one is shot placement.

quote:

It is a wonderfully versatile caliber and you should try some long distance work with it some time.

Gerard,

You are missing the point completely. As I stated previously, any caliber (not just the 7 x 57 mm) can be manipulated to shoot flatter further out. That is not the point of discussion.

Alf asked why some have the notion that it is a short-range caliber. This question then begs for an explanation. I said I will try to offer a plausible explanation as to why this idea has become entrenched in some people's mind. What fostered the idea. That is all. I think I offered a reasnable explanation that it is in fact linked with TRADITION of a heavy-for-caliber bullet, being round nosed, at 'modest' velocity, having created the caliber's reputation for decades, etc. And it is a RELATIVE thing of what is "low", "modest" or "fast" velocity.

The 7 x 57 mm was considered fast againt the Krag and the Lee-Metford and the Americans had to leap-frog the Germans with the 30-06 Spr. And this trend continued by creating larger cases for the 7 mm - ie the 7x64, the 7 mm Rem Mag, the 7 mm Wby Mag and the 7 mm STW. The "poor" 7x57 is considered slow againt the 7 mm STW. Perceptions are not necessarily facts when a standard has not been defined.

Chris

Alf,

The trick is to balance the total ballistic system for 1,000 yard competition shooting. BC is only one variable. The other is the launched velocity that can be obtained for a specific weight of bullet. So, we have an interactive situation between mass and velocity. Then the next job is to maximise BC - that can be done with a combination of SD and the Form Factor (i). Then the given bullet can be improved by creating the bullet in the sleekest form possible. That is what Berger tries to achieve with their bullets. Your reference to those heavy-for-caliber bullets, but with high BC's are indeed niche bullets for long-range competition.
The 180 Berger VLD bullet offers a high SD, with very low drag (i), and the combination offers an extremely high BC to suit competition shooters. Going to compete with a 7x57 would be silly though, as the maximisation of velocity is better achieved with bigger cased 7 mm calibers.

Just to illustrate - for hunting out to 200 yds the 175 gr Swift A-Frame bullet is a fine choice- it is heavy (high SD) and it features a high BC. With an appropriate zero setting there is actually no need for going to extreme light bullets to gain max velocity. Bullet performance for me counts more than BC's at practical hunting ranges. I have shot the above bullet at 2,520 fps in my 7x57, but prefer to down load to 2,370 as I use it at bush ranges. I only have half a packet left though.

Alf I know that you know all this, but perhaps someone (a novice shooter that dials in to AR) can get my drift as far as this BC issue is concerned.

Chris

quote:

Originally posted by Bryan Chick:
I want to build up a 7x57 pg rifle for my wife who is 5'3".In order to balance the rifle for her how short can I make the barrel before either muzzle blast becomes extreme, or, exterior ballistics become compromised?

It would appear that this thread has gone a little far a field. roger

Chris,

quote:

Alf asked why some have the notion that it is a short-range caliber.

Not some, you.

As I said before: But you sidestep the matter we are discussing. Other than you, I have yet to encounter someone who limits the 7x57 to bush ranges only.

Roger, I guess that is why they call them threads. Once a topic has run to it's conclusion other stuff tend to surface that holds the interest.

I think the 7x57 is a good choice and 21" sounds right.

I am having a 7x57 built right now on a costa rica M98 action with a 19 1/2" stainless barrel manufactured BY MAUSER. They obviously thought that was enough barrel to run the cartridge.

I would have ZERO reservations about taking large deer at 500yds with a properly loaded 7x57 using something like a 150gr NBT or 160gr accubond. I beleive the mauser twist is 1:9ish so I should be good to go.

Mine will be in a mcmillan stock with the carbine tube and should be plenty light, and highly maneuverable,...good starter for my son when he gets old enough.

Gerard,

So you are adamant that I am the only soul in the world, based on your 'encounters' - that refers to the 7 x 57 mm as a 'bushveld' caliber. Grabbing 9 Man Magnum magazines, where not a single article refers to the 7 x 57 mm and then making incorrect deductions there from has been a totally misguided effort on your part - read more. Let us rather look at what he SPECIFICALLY has to say about the caliber under discussion.

"The 7x57 is an outstanding cartridge for medium-sized antelope at short to middle distances (with the heaviest bullets) lies in its moderate velocity, which generally produces good bullet performance." .... Gregor Woods.

"The 7x57 does its best work at bushveld ranges with 160 or 170 gr bullets and is arguably the best bushveld caliber for medium game like impala, reedbuck and nyala" ... Koos Barnard.

If the above is not enough, you can contact Dr Mauritz Coetzee for his opinion as well. There is indeed a South African notion that the 7 x 57 mm is lovingly referred to as a bushveld caliber. The reason why we say a "South African notion" is because its more popular in SA relative to the world - some stats list it as no. 7 on the SA popularity list.

Clearly I am not the only one as the two most widely known authors in SA also refer to it in the same way. Please understand, it is only a way of referring to it; no more and no less. As I have explained before, the notion comes from TRADITION. Its historical use in Africa, with the use of Kynoch 173 gr ammo was with frangible softs that only performed at low striking velocity and NOT with light weight bullets at high velocity; otherwise the caliber would not have gained such an enviable reputation. Meat damage with this load was also less than with the faster calibers at bushveld ranges. So, TRADITION over decades then entrenched the notion, as Koos says ... that it is "arguably the best bushveld caliber" ... - simple hey?

Just to stretch your argumentative nature a bit further.... what is bushveld range?:

Muzzle blast distance ...
0 - 100 paces
0 - 200 paces (I say out to 200, but would allow 10% either way -Huh?)
0 - 300 paces
0 - 400 paces
0 - 500 paces

Does the definition allow for open spaces in the bushveld? Yes/No? Does it allow for one to shoot down open-cut fences standing in the 2-track dirt road? Yes/No? Or does bushveld mean just bush, bush and bush? Yes/No? Should we go in 50's. Yes/No? Should we be blunt and say no further than 75 paces. Yes/No? Bla,bla, bla - nice argument hey? Most things in life is relative.

Chris

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Roger, I guess that is why they call them threads. Once a topic has run to it's conclusion other stuff tend to surface that holds the interest.

Gerard, Is this like saying any arguement is a good reason? roger

quote:

Originally posted by brasskeeper:
I think the 7x57 is a good choice and 21" sounds right.

Me Too.

quote:

Originally posted by Rich S:
That my friend is a beautiful little rifle, Is that a Manlicher action or a customized Mauser?

From the location of the bolt handle, it is obviously NOT a Mannlicher, despite having a butterknife bolt handle.

"Secondly, I like a complete powder burn so as not to foul the barrel unduely." This only happens in loads developing too little pressure. Contrary to popular belief, SMOKELESS POWDERS, when loaded to the density needed to generate the appropriate pressure levels, are completely consumed by the time the pressure level peaks. At +- 4"-5" down the bore in front of the case mouth. Muzzle blast/flash consists mainly of incadesccent gases, not still-burning powder grains.

The reason why "slow-burning" powders permit attainment of higher MV's is that they allow the use of a larger charge without developing excessive pressures (more fuel burned behind the bullet). This is the same reason why a slow powder that gives maximum velocities in a long barrel will do the same in a short one, and people who insist on using "fast-burning powders" because they have short barrels are giving up some of the MV their cartridge can provide.....

And as for the 7X57mm being a "short-range caliber". Just ask the British soldiers who fought the Boers about that! And the Boers were still shooting round-nosed bullets!

quote:

And as for the 7X57mm being a "short-range caliber". Just ask the British soldiers who fought the Boers about that! And the Boers were still shooting round-nosed bullets!

Hi El Deguello,

What would the reason be that benchrest shooters do not compete at 600/900/1000 yards with the 7x57 mm today, using 173 grain RN bullets at 2,296 fps (original load) or even at 2,500 fps with present day handloads?

Target shooting is one thing where one can still stretch, but with hunting we need higher striking velocities than the sound barrier (1116 fps) - I want at least 2,000 fps and that puts the 7x57 mm with 173 grainers (traditional bullet weight that the caliber was designed for, hence its long throat) in the bushveld category for me. Categories are merely for our conveniece for ease of reference.

By the way, the skill of the Boer over the Brit was that the Boers only started to shoot at them when they reached the 200 paces mark. The Boers stepped it out and marked the battle terrain with rocks.

Everything in life is relative. What is a saddle gun ... a short-range gun with 170 grainers in 30-30 Win, and with sleek light-weight HV bullets .... ? Is the 45-70 a bush gun - loaded with 400 gr wad-cutters as opposed to 230 gr HV bullets? The 9,3 with Wdl 320 grainers @ 2,180 fps grainers versus 180 gr Impala bullets at 2,800 fps. Would we in everyday language refer to the 9,3 x 62 mm as a long-range gun?

And so we can go on ... last one - what is high velocity ... where does it start:

Above 2,500 fps
Above 3,000 fps
Above 3,500 fps
Above 4,000 fps
Above 4,500 fps

Then there is the statement by Gerard that I am limiting the 7x57 to bushveld ranges. Well, he is DEAD WRONG, I am limiting heavy-for-caliber bullets at low velocity (around 2,370 fps) to 200 yards, give or take. I limit the bullet; not the caliber. If I so wish, I could change my bullet/load combination to 110/120 grain sleek bullets and thereby stretch my range. That is a concious decision and not a limitation of the caliber. Clear enough?

Take care
Chris

Chris,
Here is what you said:

quote:

2 October
but since the 7 x57 mm is essentially a bushveld caliber

"Essential" - Of, constituting, a thing's essence. "Essence" - All that makes a thing what it is, intrinsic nature, indispensible quality or element.

quote:

4 October
It is in fact generally known and referred to as a short-range caliber by most hunters, gun shops, gun media and writers such as Koos Barnard and Gregor Woods

As usual you bleat for support of your statement from others and here it is Koos and Gregor. You go as far as selectively quoting them and making out that they regard the 7x57 as only useful for bushveld shooting. What they are saying is that it is ALSO a good bush caliber IN ADDITION to it's plains game capability.

quote:

4 October
I must therefore admit that the widespread SA notion is also part of my thinking,

You confirm that it is your opinion that the predominant perception of the 7x57 in SA is that of a short range bushveld caliber.

quote:

5 October
I said I will try to offer a plausible explanation as to why this idea has become entrenched in some people's mind.

And again reinforce the statement you made, with the implication that the majority of hunters think as you do.

quote:

6 October
So you are adamant that I am the only soul in the world, based on your 'encounters' - that refers to the 7 x 57 mm as a 'bushveld' caliber.

Here you start engineering an escape route for yourself. Of course there are many people who refer to the 7x57 as a bushveld caliber, because it is a very good one. The same people (except for yourself) also recognise the plains game capability of the 7x57 and do not limit it's application to bush. It is not the predominant view as you have claimed.

quote:

6 October
There is indeed a South African notion that the 7 x 57 mm is lovingly referred to as a bushveld caliber.

Once again you restate that your opinion is the popular one.

quote:

6 October
Grabbing 9 Man Magnum magazines, where not a single article refers to the 7 x 57 mm and then making incorrect deductions

I referred to articles written by Gregor and the purpose was to illustrate that Gregor is not a proponent of shooting much beyond 200m. How could you miss that? (I forget, you are still trying to engineer that escape route.)

quote:

7 October
Then there is the statement by Gerard that I am limiting the 7x57 to bushveld ranges. Well, he is DEAD WRONG

That is probably the most amazing flip flop you have done this year.

To lay the SA gun writer thing to rest and, as a sample of nine magazines is too small for you, I spent some time browsing through another 31 magazines in random order. That makes a nice round number of 40.

Out of all the hunting related articles by Gregor, only two referred to shots taken out to 400m in open terrain hunting. So I stand by my remark that Gregor leaves the impression that he is not given to shooting at longer distances. One article is from a Magnum of August 1989 and the other is on the topic of Springbuck hunting (April 96) and includes the 7x57 as a good caliber for this application. In December 96 Gregor writes, in an article titled "Which Caliber to Choose", of the versatility of the 7x57 for all types of antelope hunting under the varying conditions of plains and bush. Thus far you remain the only person I have encountered that describes the 7x57 as essentially a bushveld caliber and also limits it's use to short range hunting.

The articles by Koos refer to the 7x57 as a bushveld caliber, a plains game caliber and a good all rounder. So, sorry, Koos does not support you on this. You are twisting the truth to suit your self styled opinion again. In fact, in his "Cartridge of the Month" of March 1999 he says that, should he be limited to only one rifle for all his hunting, he would not feel terribly limited if it is a 7x57.

So twist and squirm all you like, the widespread opinion of SA hunters is not that the 7x57 is a bushveld caliber but rather that it is an all rounder. Do not try to make your misguided outlook that of the general hunter in SA. You make us all look like asses. It would be interesting to hear what Mauritz thinks about the 7x57. Why not ask him. Bushveld only or all rounder? Let us know.

PS.

quote:

4 October
you have your own coloquial opinion

What is a coloquial (sic) opinion anyway?

quote:

"The 7x57 does its best work at bushveld ranges with 160 or 170 gr bullets and is arguably the best bushveld caliber for medium game like impala, reedbuck and nyala" ... Koos Barnard.

Gerard,

Please note the following in the above passage, contrary to all your dribble:

" ... best work at bushveld ranges ..."
" ... is arguably the best bushveld caliber ..."

What does "best work" mean - what does it infer? A rifle can be many things to many people, but when we say "best work" we sort of narrow things down, not so? Kind of getting more specific, putting it in your preferred slot. The fact that Koos refered to the term "bushveld caliber" gives me the idea that somene has coined the idea even before him, sort of a wide-spread terminology that even novices would understand, reading his article for the first time. Yes, a way of referring to, or to describe, or to categorize. You are the only one that cannot see it, shame!

I am not going to repeat what I have said before, as Koos has put the nails into the coffin.
And that is it.
Chris.

quote:

The 7x57 does its best work at bushveld ranges with 160 or 170 gr bullets

To which he added in several other articles that one would use 130 to 140gr bullets for plains game to get "the best work" from it in that application. He is talking about the bullet weight rather than the caliber.

quote:

and is arguably the best bushveld caliber for medium game like impala, reedbuck and nyala

In another article he states that he cannot wait to take his 7x57 after the elusive grys ribbok where long shots will be required with 130gr bullets. Here he endorses the caliber without excluding it from other applications as you do, and would lead us to believe most others do.

So what does this tell us? Koos is sold on the 7x57 as a bushveld calibre as well as a plains game calibre and you can only see that part which falls in line with your view. If you were any more narrow minded, you would have only one eye.

An interesting point was raised recently. If you have done so much hunting as you say you have, how come you do not have any pictures to back up your tales? Can't wait to hear the reason for this.

PS.

quote:
4 October
you have your own coloquial opinion

What is a coloquial (sic) opinion anyway?

Gerard,

I would venture to say that most 7x57 SA hunters still use conventional lead-core bullets today. Mostly those cheap conventional ones that PMP supply and the ones from Highland and S&B. Highland has surpassed the ammo sales of PMP over the last 3 years, as they are even cheaper than our local product - they now sponser most of the shooting competitions. What is more, Highland only offer a 173 grainer @ moderate velocity - in line with tradition. As frangible bullets, such as the foregoing, perform better with low velocity, it supports the notion that the caliber does its best work at bushveld ranges unlike the 7 mm magnums. The reason why manufacturers designed bigger cases is in fact to create better long-range calibers - the 7x64 mm, the 7 mm Rem Mag, the 7 mm Wby Mag, 7 mm Dakota and 7 mm STW.

Furthermore, if we have to consider the consumption of 120 gr HV bullets in the 7x57, I would venture to say that it represents less than 1% of total usage and thereby insignificant to base an opinion on, as to what is primarily used by the SA hunter. The above does not mean that one cannot hunt at extended ranges with the 7x57 when HV bullets are being used by those that do not own more than one rifle. That is not the point - the point is what is being used by the majority.

Most gunshops do not even stock HV bullets, like is the case with Rhino bullets for reloaders. However, most hunters still prefer to buy ammo over the counter as they avoid the hassle or cost of reloading. I have come to realise this at the Reloading Association that reloading is in fact a very small activity in the life of the SA Hunter.

Chris

And you refer to me as having an argumentative nature!

What would be the point you are trying to make with the post above? Rhino sells more bullets than GSC? Highland sells more bullets than PMP? What?

quote:

if we have to consider the consumption of 120 gr HV bullets in the 7x57, I would venture to say that it represents less than 1% of total usage

Underscores your complete lack of understanding of stability, application and twist rate.

Repeated from above:
"An interesting point was raised recently. If you have done so much hunting as you say you have, how come you do not have any pictures to back up your tales? Can't wait to hear the reason for this.

PS.

quote:
4 October
you have your own coloquial opinion

What is a coloquial (sic) opinion anyway?"

quote:

Furthermore, if we have to consider the consumption of 120 gr HV bullets in the 7x57, I would venture to say that it represents less than 1% of total usage and thereby insignificant to base an opinion on, as to what is primarily used by the SA hunter.

Gerard,

The above is my full quotation ... it means we cannot base tradition on your HV bullets - it is new and insignificant in terms of volume in the SA context, when we refer to the 7x57 mm caliber. It seems you just won't understand what TRADITION means.

I do not dispute that the 7x57mm cannot have other uses, when loaded with non-traditional bullet weights.

Chris

Chris

What a load of pissing and moaning. A 7X57 is a lovely cartridge that is suited to shortish, - smallish light carbines. Stick a 175gr bullet in it - it is perfect for bushveld stuff up to Kudu. Stick a 120 or 140gr Gameking in front, you have an outstanding springbok and blesbok rifle. The fact that it is a small rifle may consign it, in the South African context, to use in the bush - an equivalent to the American lever action 30-30, if you will. It has nothing to do with the capabilities of the cartridge.

Any South African would look at it and say "That's a real nice bush rifle" simply because of the style of rifle not the chambering - It is handy and light to handle in the bush. Show the same rifle to an American, he's likely to say "That's a real nice sheep hunting rifle" because it's light to carry up a mountain. Bullet weight? The South African would use a 150 or 175gr bullet, because drop is not an issue but full penetration (two blood trails port and starboard) is, while an American might use a 120 or 130gr bullet, because he will be taking a longer shot, and distance estimation more tricky. Sheephunters climb in here if you differ.

I don't know Koos or Gregor personally, but I do know this, by his writing, Greg Woods is not given to long range shooting, I have read just about every Magnum in which he has written and it is very apparent he is a close up kind of hunter. Ditto Koos Barnard he has said himself he would much rather stalk and lose the animal by spooking it than take a longish shot and possibly wound it. Although lately he has discovered that 100gr bullets in the 30-06 are pretty useful....

quote:

The fact that it is a small rifle may consign it, in the South African context, to use in the bush

Pete,

I could not agree with you anymore. As I have tried to explain so many times to Gerard, the reference to the 7x57 is merely a SA traditional reference for ease of reference for the very detailed reasons that I have given ad infinitum. Only the most stubborn would not comprehend. No more and no less. Even in my very last post I had to reiterate ... "I do not dispute that the 7x57 cannot have other uses, when loaded with non-traditional bullet weights." It seems like a cardinal sin to refer to the 7x57 as a bushveld caliber and like we all owe an apology to Gerard for not taking us to the burning stakes.

To mock the situation I even tendered the following: ... Just to stretch your argumentative nature a bit further.... what is bushveld range?:

Muzzle blast distance ...
0 - 100 paces
0 - 200 paces (I say out to 200, but would allow 10% either way -Huh?)
0 - 300 paces
0 - 400 paces
0 - 500 paces

Does the definition allow for open spaces in the bushveld? Yes/No? Does it allow for one to shoot down open-cut fences standing in the 2-track dirt road? Yes/No? Or does bushveld mean just bush, bush and bush? Yes/No? Should we go in 50's. Yes/No? Should we be blunt and say no further than 75 paces. Yes/No? Bla,bla, bla - nice argument hey? Most things in life is relative."

I think Koos was right on the money when he said ... "The 7x57 does its best work at bushveld ranges with 160 or 170 gr bullets and is arguably the best BUSHVELD CALIBER caliber for medium game like impala, reedbuck and nyala" ... Koos Barnard." By implication Koos infers that there are better long range tools than a 7x57, but that it excels at short range in the bush for medium sized game.

As far as Gregor Woods hunting preference is concerned, it is an entirely different matter as to what he likes more or less. All I know is that he hunted under all practical conditions and then some. That is not the issue. What matter to me is the respect that he commands and his brilliant articles that we have seen over the years. I have always valued his opinions and skillful writings.

The Sierra Gameking bullet will not pollute my barrel - too frangible and messing the meat up. The versatility of the 7x57 is not in dispute for a springbuck hunt with lighter bullets - 140 grains @ 2,800 fps is certainly more than adequate for the task. The notion is purely a TRADITIONAL thing - right or wrong, who cares.

Chris

Anytime this Chris Becker or whatever Travelo shooters name is gets into it it's like quicksand.

If I follow some of this baloney it's quoting someones opinion maybe in Africa as to what he thinks of the 7-57 Mauser cartridge. We all have our opinion.

I see it as a round that will do what similar cartridges will do. Whats wrong with that? There are loads for it with 139 and 140 gr and 160 gr bullets that will carry quite far. Gerrard also uses mono lighter bullets which may carry well. I have not used those. I would say that the cartridge would lay much thin skinned game low if you did not miss.

quote:

I see it as a round that will do what similar cartridges will do. Whats wrong with that? There are loads for it with 139 and 140 gr and 160 gr bullets that will carry quite far.

Savage99,

I agree with you - there is nothing wrong with that, because it is your opinion based on your convictions. Gerard's 120 gr HV bullet is a niche bullet and designed for what he believes is best - and that is good. On the other end of the scale we have the 175 gr Swift A-Frame bullet which is better suited in my opinion for bushveld hunting of Kudu and Blue wildebeest. Yes, we all have opinions and that is why we differ at times, as long as we can accept that when we deal with a notion that it is not necessarily a universal or undisputed truth - meaning it can vary from country to country and from one era to another as we advance in bullet design to premium-grade bullets.

Chris

Gerard wrote:

quote:

An interesting point was raised recently. If you have done so much hunting as you say you have, how come you do not have any pictures to back up your tales? Can't wait to hear the reason for this.

Very interesting, is it all talk and nothing other than you being a "wannabe hunter"?

Savage99 wrote:

quote:

Anytime this Chris Becker or whatever Travelo shooters name is gets into it it's like quicksand.

People are looking right through you - ghost or real?

If you're real and a man, show your face to us!

Jagter,

If you are the man you think you are, let us meet somewhere in Pretoria when you come to the city again.

Chris

truvelloshooter, invitation accepted, your contact details please.

In the meantime, post some of your pictures of game you've hunted and yourself with them so that I will know at least which face I'm supposed to meet in Pretoria.
Once you've done that we can go ahead with the arrangements to meet.

Man enough to comply with this very reasonable request?
Let's see!

Jagter,

I am available between the 21 st and 28 th - you can pick the date and time at your convience and I will fall in, even if I have to take leave. You can phone Mauritz Coetzee, tell him when you can make it and we can meet at his shop, as I believe you still have an axe to grind with him as well, then we can kill 2 birds with one stone.

Chris

I take that it is 21/10 to 28/10.
Unfortunately that doesn't fit in with my schedule. It'll have to be anytime after 13 Nov. 06.

Anyway, scared to see me on my own?

Doesn't matter, I'm man enough alone to face both of you at the same time.

Once again, you made a nice flip-flop to try and get away without showing game you've hunted with your face next to them.

Sure there are a number of AR members who would like to attach something more real to the name truvelloshooter than just a little laughing mouse you've displayed once!

What a pity that it does not fit your schedule. We all have schedules, but perhaps we can meet after work in the evening. I have already contacted Mauritz and he indicated that it is fine with him and he welcomes the opportunity to finally meet with you. Mauritz is expecting your call.

I do not think that we have too much to discuss though, but perhaps you will be less likely to make those snarling remarks about me.

Chris

PS: I will be away after the 28 th and may only have time much later.

quote:

but perhaps you will be less likely to make those snarling remarks about me.

I'm positive that the above is far more applicable to yourself and afflicted by yourself!

Anyway, nothing should stop you in the meantime to post a few pictures of yourself with at least something you've hunted sometime, dont you think?

Jagter,

I have no reason to snarl at you other than to react to what you are saying. You have not offered any explanation as to Alf's question or made a positive contribution. I have offered my explanation. If you have a different one, that is fine with me.

It is clear for everyone, over the age of 7, to see that I have not questioned the versatility of the 7 x57 - in fact I have a published article making the point that it is "versatile" ito the different bullet weights that are available - you can see it on the "DeerStalker" website under the title ... "Is the 7x57mm Mauser an Underrated Calibre?" (7x57 Mauser - 2 nd article) Go to point number 12 in this article; there I deal with the versatility aspect.

What is the problem then? Gerard cannot bear the thought that anybody can refer to the 7 x 57 as a "bushveld caliber", especially if it is me. Not even if it is merely a notion based on tradition. Does it hurt so much? Gerard just has to attack me, as he has a personal vendetta against me. The paranioa is apparent against the slightest comment that may tarnish the high-velocity school of thought - thumping through 30 Man Magnums, I ask you. I rest my case.

Lastly, I have no compelling reason to either please you or be subservient to you.

Chris.

truvelloshooter wrote:

quote:

You have not offered any explanation as to Alf's question or made a positive contribution.

And I don't plan to do so simply because my long range rifle is a 7mm Rem Mag - also highly effective over very short Bushveld ranges though, when using the right type of bullets - more on that here.

quote:

Gerard just has to attack me, as he has a personal vendetta against me.

Methinks it is exactly the other way round. You sit and wait until Gerard remarks on something knowing that you can always rub him up the wrong way round by saying the opposite.
However, with enough rope you have so far managed to hang yourself time and again in these arguments. That has led to a great dent, if not a total destruction of your credibility.

Só, you don't need to please or obediently comply with my requests, rather put yourself in a better light by making yourself known via a few hunting pictures of yourself.

The choice is yours!

Jagter,

I do not care what you believe or don't, but the thread actually speaks for itself - read it again and follow it carefully with an impartial mind and then draw your conclusions again. This discussion is actually proof of a painful protracted discussion to reach a conclusion with Gerard on something trivial, and this process is monotonously indicative when one is in a debate with him.

I still think Gerard makes the most beautiful machined bullets, but it does not mean that I rank his light-weight HV bullets as the best hunting bullet under all conditions in terms of terminal effect. That is my opinion and prerogative, as I am the one who is spending the money on the bullets. If you prefer them and believe they are the best, then I have no problem with that, as that is your opinion and prerogative. I have to defend your right to differ with me to the death. We all live and learn and so we become more knowledgeable unless we are born geniuses with a pre-programmed lifetime experience behind us.

There should be no need to climb into each others character when we differ over something, so let us try and keep it clean.

Take care
Chris

Chris,
This thread reveals all the typical stuff that you come up with.

MISGUIDED STATEMENTS:
"since the 7 x57 mm is essentially a bushveld caliber"
"It is in fact generally known and referred to as a short-range caliber by most hunters, gun shops, gun media and writers such as Koos Barnard and Gregor Woods"
"I must therefore admit that the widespread SA notion is also part of my thinking,"
"My personal application of the 7 mm Mauser is indeed limited to under 200 yds"
"There is indeed a South African notion that the 7 x 57 mm is lovingly referred to as a bushveld caliber."

FLIP-FLOPS:
"The traditional bullet weight for the 7x57 was 173 grains, and as such it got to be known as a short-range caliber RELATIVE to other calibers."
"Please understand, it is only a way of referring to it"
"Then there is the statement by Gerard that I am limiting the 7x57 to bushveld ranges. Well, he is DEAD WRONG"
"The versatility of the 7x57 is not in dispute for a springbuck hunt with lighter bullets - 140 grains @ 2,800 fps"
"It is clear for everyone, over the age of 7, to see that I have not questioned the versatility of the 7 x57"

MISTAKES:
"In SA, PMP offered for years only a 150 and 170 gr bullet"
"Is the 45-70 a bush gun - loaded with 400 gr wad-cutters as opposed to 230 gr HV bullets?"
"What is more, Highland only offer a 173 grainer @ moderate velocity"

INSULTING MANNER:
"You are dead wrong on your above presumptious statement, as you pretend to know exactly how and where Gregor Woods is hunting"
"I am sure he would laugh at your silly self-served statement."
"Just to stretch your argumentative nature a bit further.... "
"Bla,bla, bla - nice argument hey?"
"Please note the following in the above passage, contrary to all your dribble"
"You are the only one that cannot see it, shame!"
"Only the most stubborn would not comprehend."

RED HERRINGS AND HALFTRUTHS (THE TRIPLE HORNSWOGGLE):
"quite contrary to what Gerard wants us to believe."
"So you are adamant that I am the only soul in the world, based on your 'encounters' - that refers to the 7 x 57 mm as a 'bushveld' caliber."
"Furthermore, if we have to consider the consumption of 120 gr HV bullets in the 7x57,"
"Most gunshops do not even stock HV bullets"
"The above is my full quotation ... it means we cannot base tradition on your HV bullets - it is new and insignificant in terms of volume in the SA context, when we refer to the 7x57 mm caliber. It seems you just won't understand what TRADITION means."
"Furthermore, if we have to consider the consumption of 120 gr HV bullets in the 7x57,"
"I do not dispute that the 7x57mm cannot have other uses, when loaded with non-traditional bullet weights."
"Gerard's 120 gr HV bullet is a niche bullet and designed for what he believes is best"
"It seems like a cardinal sin to refer to the 7x57 as a bushveld caliber"
"Gerard cannot bear the thought that anybody can refer to the 7 x 57 as a "bushveld caliber"

WHINING AND PARANOIA:
"especially if it is me."
"Gerard just has to attack me, as he has a personal vendetta against me."
"There should be no need to climb into each others character when we differ over something"

SENTENCES THAT MAKE NO SENSE:
"you have your own coloquial opinion"
"and like we all owe an apology to Gerard for not taking us to the burning stakes."
"thumping through 30 Man Magnums, I ask you."
"and this process is monotonously indicative when one is in a debate with him. "

UNANSWERED QUESTIONS:
"What is a coloquial (sic) opinion anyway?"
"If you have done so much hunting as you say you have, how come you do not have any pictures to back up your tales?"


Just so that there is no misconception about my point of view:

I have never disputed the fact that the 7x57 is a good bushveld caliber or that it is referred to as such, only that it is not perceived in SA as essentially a bushveld caliber. Chris remains the only person I have ever encountered that holds this point of view.

Chris, one last thing: Why are you harping on our 120gr HV bullet for use in a 7x57? It is not the correct one in the HV range for use in CIP spec rifles. Where did you pull that one from? It seems the mistakes flow naturally when you get going.

Gerard,

Summarizing things out of context must be your favourite pastime .... unbelievable.

We have spoken the subject to death. I have nothing more to say, other than that I will keep referring to the 7 x 57 mm as a wonderful bushveld caliber, as the tradition has become entrenched over many decades, long before we had light-weight HV bullets available.

The elusive concept of bushveld range is still not solved:

Muzzle blast distance ...
0 - 100 paces
0 - 200 paces (I say out to 200, but would allow 10% either way -Huh?)
0 - 300 paces
0 - 400 paces
0 - 500 paces

Does the definition allow for open spaces in the bushveld? Yes/No? Does it allow for one to shoot down open-cut fences standing in the 2-track dirt road? Yes/No? Or does bushveld mean just bush, bush and bush? Yes/No? Should we go in 50's. Yes/No? Should we be blunt and say no further than 75 paces. Yes/No?

I have simply used the 120 gr HV bullet as an example, but if the right one is in fact your 130 grainer, then please except my sincere apology. Let us not make another mountain out of a mole heap for 10 grains and I am not "harping" on your 120 gr HV at all. In essence both of them will extend ranges for the applicable 7 mm's, whatever they are. Good show.

Good hunting
Chris

Since I started this imbroglio I thought I might throw my oar into the discussion that followed. Now, I probably don't understand the argument, so, if the following is irrelevant please forgive me. Earlier, someonetook issue with my question being posted on a small caliber group: sorry; however as the son of a pre WW2 rifle company First Sergeant, I was inculcated with the notion that anything under 50Cal was a small caliber.

Now, I don't know just what caused the argument about the 7x57 being a bushvelt caliber, nor, do I know what is bushvelt range. I would expect it would be from point blank to 300 yds. I would think that this is the general range for a 7x57.

The old Wimbledon(Creedmore) 1000yd matches during the 1930's were mostly won by heavy barrel
300 H&H; does this make the 300 H&H a 1000yd game gun? I think not. Someone made the point that the 7x57 was superior to our 30-40 Krag during the Spansih American War; well, the problem was not so much with the cartridge as with the rifle itself; plus, only the Regulars were armed with the Krag,(an inferior rifle compared to the Mauser), the majority of the troops(Militia) were armed with the 45/70 Springfield: a single shot black powder rifle-any thing would look good in comparison.

So, not being a ballistic expert, I can only conclude that, for me, I would not consider using a 7x57 much beyond 200yds. Of course, I would not engage any animal beyond 300 yds unless I had a mortar: too much can go wrong; I was taught that a heavy bullet going fast had a much better chance of hitting a long range target with the energy necessary to wound a human, which is the goal of combat: kill a man and you just remove one person; wound him and you remove 3 men, the casulty and the two men required to carry him away. We all would agree that this is not the goal of hunting.

Anyway, if none of the above makes any sense I apologise.

Chris,
What is out of context about this?

quote:

MISTAKES:
"In SA, PMP offered for years only a 150 and 170 gr bullet"
"Is the 45-70 a bush gun - loaded with 400 gr wad-cutters as opposed to 230 gr HV bullets?"
"What is more, Highland only offer a 173 grainer @ moderate velocity"

INSULTING MANNER:
"You are dead wrong on your above presumptious statement, as you pretend to know exactly how and where Gregor Woods is hunting"
"I am sure he would laugh at your silly self-served statement."
"Just to stretch your argumentative nature a bit further.... "
"Bla,bla, bla - nice argument hey?"
"Please note the following in the above passage, contrary to all your dribble"
"You are the only one that cannot see it, shame!"
"Only the most stubborn would not comprehend."