a user stated that he was confused between .243 load data and his 6TCU. I am wondering how common this could be, so lets see

Results (89 votes counted so far):
if someone says 243, would you think they might have meant 6tcu?
87	(98%)
		No - this is a stupid poll
2	(2%)
		Yes - i don't believe that anyone should abreviate anything, all in the desire for safety
See Poll Form

Jeffe,
I didn't respond because of the limited number of choices and how they were worded.
I for one believe that most beginners would not know what TCU means. Just about anyone with a modicum of knowledge has heard of a "243". Now if you asked them about a 6ppc, a6 mm br, 244 or a 6mm rem ackley improved or a 240 weatherby they might not be able to identify the cartridge.
In fact how many current loading manuals even list TCU loads?
GWB

GW
The case (pun intended) in point was a poster pretending that one could become confused between those two cases.

The question was for loads for the 243 and 85gr barnes TSX -- not an open quest for knowledge regarding 6mm bullets and the calibers shooting them.

I am merely attempting to verify my suposition that no one, on the planet, could confuse a 243 load request for one usable in a 6tcu

I voted for "stupid". Someone that makes that mistake is just a Darwin Award waiting to happen...

I hope they don't drive a car or operate power tools either...

I know a man that bought 7mm Rem Mag ammo for his 7mm Mauser. He didn't understand the difference.

Folks know that a .22 can usually shoot shorts, longs and long rifles and assume that centerfores are similar, meaning all 7mm rifles will shoot all 7mm rounds.

Unless one grows up loving the shooting sports he might find nomenclature extremely confusing.

The world is ate up with a lotta dumazzes!!!!!


George

i hear the 7mag/7x57 thing all the time. whenever i talk to someone that i know is not all that framiliar with guns and he mentions the "7-m-m" i get suspicious of what he's talking about, so i ask some "dumb" questions to see if he realizes there are different 7mm. rounds......allot of times, my suspicions are correct. the "7-m-m" is the "well known remington" mag and the 7x57 is just an "old beat-up german army gun that my grampa had". another one i hear occasionally is that you can't use bullets for a 7mag in a .280 remington....
same goes for the 6mm.remington and the .243 winchester. usually it's the same guys that think one is a great for deer and the other just don't have the snort needed.

quote:

The world is ate up with a lotta dumazzes!!!!!

That would be my first response after reading merlinron's post. But then I realize these folks are only human! Hell, they probably know more about other things in life than I do about guns! So my second response is "OK, he's not a gun expert". I know lot's of very clever folks who are not gun experts. Good folks!

For years I've been reciting the following:

In the bible Christ is quoted as saying "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth"

From which one might reasonably presume that god must really love the meek...

Ok taking that as a given we must also presuming the following, that the almighty must be absolutely crazy about the stupid, for the simple reason that HE MADE SO MANY OF THEM!

AD

Am I confused about caliber designations?

NO !

If someone is confused about caliber designations they need to study more or take up a different hobby.

quote:

i get suspicious of what he's talking about, so i ask some "dumb" questions to see if he realizes there are different 7mm. rounds......

I agree that it is obviousy wise to address the cartridge, not just the bore sixe. Saying 6mm, 7mm, 8mm, .22, .30 "calibers", etc. really tells us nothing.

The user need not know about all of the various cartridges and their nomenclature but he sure needs to know what HIS is! Anyone buying .300 Win Mag for his .300 Weatherby because "they are the same" is a true idiot and can't read either. A Darwin competitor!

I know of a guy that went to a local gunshop and ended up bringing back 375 Winchester shells for a 375 H&H.

I once had a fellow tell me 380 acp is just a 9mmluger short so one can interchange them like one does with 39spl in a 357 mag.

I am 75 years of age ,a school trained gunsmith and shooter and reloader of well over 50 years. I have no idea what a 6TCU is and don't think I have ever heard of the designation and if you asked me the metric designation for any caliber diameter in inches I probably couldn't tell you off hand. Do I get them mixed up - NO - can I read - YES. Do I know that a 6mm is a .243? Only when I look it up. Do I know what the metric designation of a 308 is? Not really. Does it make any difference. Not at all. If I NEED to know I'll look it up. I also don't know the weight of a gallon of gasoline or of water or what the cubic displacement of each is. When I need to know I can also look them up. What real difference does this make.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I once had a fellow tell me 380 acp is just a 9mmluger short so one can interchange them like one does with 39spl in a 357 mag.

Saw a guy trying that at a Gunsite Alumni Shoot back in the day. Let's just say he, his brand new Glock, and his mix of 9x17 and 9x19 ammunition (at least the boxes were the same color) did not make it to the winner's circle...

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
For years I've been reciting the following:

In the bible Christ is quoted as saying "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth"

From which one might reasonably presume that god must really love the meek...

Ok taking that as a given we must also presuming the following, that the almighty must be absolutely crazy about the stupid, for the simple reason that HE MADE SO MANY OF THEM!

AD

I was taught that the original word, if translated verbatim meant " righteous anger" resulting in theologians moderating the text.

Perhaps, the ones of which you speak are not to be the heirs at all.

Saw a badly damaged 7mag from a factory
"7mm Express" being chambered and fired,
and another 7mag shredded by a factory 270 win .

KNOWLEDGE MATTERS

I didn't vote, but that's only because the options didn't include my preferences.

I've been around firearms for pretty much all my life, and I'd like to think that I'm pretty much across most the standard stuff... metric or imperial measurements aren't an issue for me, and I know to be precise when talking with gunshops/dealers and so on.

However..... this was brought into sharp relief recently when an acquaintance posted a request for loads for his '270' on a forum that I also happen to be a member of - he was getting all sorts of info in reply, (as in good for 270Win), but inappropriate for his 270WSM..

When people refer to 6x47, my first thought is 'which one'....

Not easily confuddled, but I do like to double check at times.

Hehehe... how many of you know what a 7.7x54 is?

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:

Hehehe... how many of you know what a 7.7x54 is?

Is that a 7.7 x54 R ,Semi-rimmed , rimless or rebated --or caseless?


(seeing where you're from--my guess is the 7.7x54R --303 version)

This, compatriots, is the price of freedom.

I can remember when lots of shooters with 03's bought 8x57 ammo because "all soldier boy rifles shoot the same ammo? Don't they...?" (No!)

When the king ran things, you were taught what they wanted you to know and no more and if you screwed up, well, that was a crime against the king, treason, and you and the teacher just might get "offed."

Today we have "liberty." Freedom to "try." (And "screw up.")

It is up to the shooter to "get informed" and if the person chooses to be a boob who doesn't know the difference between a .243 WCF and a 6mm TCU... ["shoots good, goes bang."] hopefully they don't get hurt too bad learning. Unfortunately there is no alternative consistent with "liberty."

I once called on ordering a case of 6mm bullets that were $50.00 less than the .243 bullets. I asked the order taker what the difference was and was told emphatically, like I was stupid, that obviously, 6mm bullets are 6mm and .243 bullets are .243... !!! I grabbed the 6mms and saved a bunch. Yeh... Enjoy.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:

Hehehe... how many of you know what a 7.7x54 is?

Is that a 7.7 x54 R ,Semi-rimmed , rimless or rebated --or caseless?


(seeing where you're from--my guess is the 7.7x54R --303 version)

Hehehe... yep, it's a shortened 303Brit.

For many years, it was illegal in Australia to own a rifle chambered in ANY military chambering unless the owner was a member of a Mil Rifle club.

Given that SMLE's were plentiful and cheap, but illegal, the simple answer was to spin the barrel off, turn it back one turn, and voila!! A 7.7x54...

Pull the projectile from Mk7 ammo, push the shoulder back, and re-seat the projectile, or put a soft point in.

It can be amazing on what you think even the people you know, should personally know when it comes to cartridges...

a friend who I thought knew a lot about cartridges, asked for my help the opening of deer season one morning...

at the cabin, in No Wisconsin, he could not get the ammo to load in his New Garand and feed right...

here he had 9 or 10 boxes of 30/30 cases, he was trying to fit into his 30/06 Gsrand...

My response was he had to be kidding... I thought he was just screwing with me..

his response back to me was that, the kid down at the Holiday Gas Station, had pointed out that 30/30 ammo was less in cost than the 06 ammo..and both of them sumnized that 30 caliber was 30 caliber after all.....

I wasn't surprised that some zit faced kid on the night shift in Small Town Wisconsin didn't know the difference...but not a 45 year old President of a Construction Company...

I sent him back to the store to get some 30/06 ammo and then he comes back with 220 grain Round Nose and then wondered why his Garand jammed on the first shot..

Friend or not, I told him he needed to go back to a single shot rifle

a lever action, or bolt action had too many moving parts for him to figure out how to operate it...

Apparently there is a difference between the 6.5 Swede and the 6.5x55!

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Apparently there is a difference between the 6.5 Swede and the 6.5x55!

Yep, well...

sort of yes and sort of no...

The European (CIP) 6.5x55 'Swede' has a case head diameter of .480", compared to the US (SAAMI) dimension of .473", same as any '06 based case.

I have a PAC-NOR barrel chambered in the CIP chambering, and use Rem (SAAMI) brass in it... and use Lee (SAAMI) dies for FLS and so on....

It's only ever been an issue when I try to resize Euro (CIP spec) brass in the Lee (SAAMI) dies.... not a happy combination.

Not worth worrying about, and given that Rem brass is much more obtainable and cheaper... I'm going with it.. if I junk the brass after 3 or 5 loads, I'm happy - I lose more in the field.

When I went to my CCW class there was a guy there who was absolutely irate that he couldn't finish the class because the instructor wouldn't let him shoot the the 38 Special ammunition in his 100+ year old Smith & Wesson revolver that was chambered in 38 S&W.

The names 6.5 Swede and 6.5x55 have been used to distinguish between the early loading/rifle and modern rifles that can take 'modern' pressure. I don't know if that is widely accepted. (Or even correct).

NO -- there maybe a typo in the cip to saami (this also happened with the 10,75x68) but it is NOT a different case.

this is a clash of specification authorities. 6.5 swede and 6.5x55 are the same cartidge. SAAMI is wrong , again.

there IS a difference in 7.62x51 and 308 winchester .. really... there is ...

quote:

there IS a difference in 7.62x51 and 308 winchester .. really... there is ...

I'll take your word for it but can you tell us what the difference is?

Throat-- mostly
Also abit larger in dia/ at the mid shoulder,
and body for DIRT.
So technically the headspace is different.

308 Winchester (SAAMI) Gauges
Commercial

GO - 1.6300"
NOGO - 1.6340"
FIELD - 1.6380"


Military Gauges

GO - 1.6350"
NOGO - 1.6405"
FIELD - 1.6455"

Oh , I forgot-- psi 65K vs 50 k

rugeruser and jeffe, you are both sort of right. The SAAMI chart lists the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser as having a .480 case rim size, however, the American brass makers have decided, on their own, to make theirs as well as their rifles with the .473 rim size. For example, the European 6.5x55 ammo will chamber and fire fine in my M70 Featherweight or 700 Classic, but the extraction on them is harder than normal making one think there was pressure issues. When I contacted BOTH makers they explained it was easier to just stick with the .473 rim rather than having a single run of rifles with different bolts. They both recommended that I just buy american ammo as it has the smaller rim. Federal, Remington and Winchester all have the smaller rims in their ammo. I can not speak to Nosler (if they make it) since I don't pay that much for brass.

In Europe there IS a different 6.5x55 cartridge that was used by target shooters that was called 6.5 Swede. The shoulder was a wee bit more forward than 6.5x55. Don't know if there still is.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
Oh , I forgot-- psi 65K vs 50 k

that's the more signifgant part -- the cetme will shoto fine with 7.62 .. will be beat to death with 308 COMMERICAL loads .

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
Throat-- mostly
Also abit larger in dia/ at the mid shoulder,
and body for DIRT.
So technically the headspace is different.

308 Winchester (SAAMI) Gauges
Commercial

GO - 1.6300"
NOGO - 1.6340"
FIELD - 1.6380"


Military Gauges

GO - 1.6350"
NOGO - 1.6405"
FIELD - 1.6455"

Oh , I forgot-- psi 65K vs 50 k

I think that's 65kpsi vs 50k cup, or have I gotten the wrong end of the stick.

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

I think that's 65kpsi vs 50k cup, or have I gotten the wrong end of the stick.

Yeah, --senior moment.

Will 7X57 ammo be safe and an optimal choice in my friend's 275 Rigby?

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
Will 7X57 ammo be safe and an optimal choice in my friend's 275 Rigby?

When I got mine 25 years ago I was shooting off the shelf 7x57.

A British smith told me I needed to check the throat length.

I have chamber cast 3 original .275's, 2 early rifles that appeared to be identical to the 7x57 (long throat) and one later produced rifle with a slightly shorter throat.

Seems to me the general answer is still --yes, esp. with the current trend toward 140's which are shorter than the 175's.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
Will 7X57 ammo be safe and an optimal choice in my friend's 275 Rigby?

yes

The one that cracks me up is on another forum a guy was trying to sell a lot of surplus ammo he got a deal on.

It was listed as being 5.56x45NATO ammo

someone else said "ahh 223Rem" and the reply was "yes"

Then another guy chimed in with doom and gloom dire warnings about unmaking all of creation of 5.56NATO ammo was fired in a 223chamber.

MY explanation that
A)The cartridge is dimensionally identical
B) the difference in pressure standard
is atleast paritially an illusion between the CUP and PSI based pressure standards
C)The differences in chamber were also partially illusional because the "5.56" chamber dimensions had been used for decades on many semi-autos before anyone got to the point of actually making it a standard.

and then it is largely differences relating to more reliable feeding and extraction

but there is also a slight difference in the SAAMI throat/leade for the two "chambers"

Then the guy takes my reply from that forum to the M4Carbine forum without any of the previous discussion to which I was replying... remarks out of context are meaningless as are any rebuttal to them.... Yet everyone is willing to jump with both feet into a discussion they have only heard part of... (Fools rush in?)

Making comments like "We don't want anyone to get into trouble or have an accident"

Gimme a break....



Frankly I think any 223 chambered rifle that can't handle 5.56nato pressures is unsafe with ANY ammunition, because the difference is a whopping 6%

That being said (as we all know) NATO standard ammunition is loaded with heavier bullets that may or may not stabilize in the more common slower twists.

At which point I related an amusing anecdote about what happens when you shoot SS109 out of a 1:12"twist 223 barrel... and these jokers start making comments about "has he ever heard of M183" Sure I have but why shoot ball from a varmint gun when I have 40gr V-Max bullets?

Or "mabey he buggered his crown with a cleaning rod?"

do people actually work at being stupid?
or is that called "Being obtuse"?

I relate anther anecdote about making smiley faces out of target pasting dots at 100yards and several people there call bullshit... Hell I know people who can reliably shoot the primer out of an end-on 12guage hull

I've personally done it 5-for-5 a couple times

Occasionally I'll knock the cup out and leave the cylindrical portion of the battery cup
intact in the shell... Notched but there...

I know one or two that can do it often enough at 200yards to be scary... NONE of them are using semi's.

I really doubt there is any semi that is consistantly that accurate, comparing any semi to a tuned bolt gun?

Oh please....

Then there are the other jokers who make blanket statements about purpose made AR based match guns that shoot as accurately as some bolt guns...

Do I believe this? sure I do... But I can buy SEVERAL bolt action rifles and equip them all with premium glass for what an AR-based rifle that shoots as well as an out of the Box Remington VSSF-II will cost...

Is it possible to make an AR as accurate as a tuned bolt gun? I think not.

Oh, but that point is ignored....

Ignorance is almost as pervasive as stupidity.

People with vivid imaginations and little grasp of practical reality are nearly as annoying.

If any 223/5.56 semi in the world can run with a tuned Rem 700 wearing a Lilja barrel I wanna see it.

Then I want my drinking water checked for LSD after I see it.

Rant mode OFF.

If I want to worry about something I'll worry about some idiot feeding soft primered varmint loads into an AR and blowing themselves up with the slam fires that are more likely than a 5.56 factory round blowing up a mini-14.

AD

jeffeosso- I still think you have not got the point of my reply. To make it easy just tell everyone what the fallowing cartriges are so everyone will know like you do. 22--6mm--25--7mm--270--30--300--32--8mm--35--375--400--416--45--450--500

71:1 -- does ANYONE wonder who voted the 1?

quote:

Originally posted by Fat_Albert:
jeffeosso- I still think you have not got the point of my reply. To make it easy just tell everyone what the fallowing cartriges are so everyone will know like you do. 22--6mm--25--7mm--270--30--300--32--8mm--35--375--400--416--45--450--500

yes sir, your point was that the 243 could be confused with the 6mm TCU .. then called every one UNSAFE for not agreeing with you.

here you go, in your own words

quote:

Originally posted by Fat_Albert:
Hey you guys! I tried all of your loads in my 243 and it won't fit. Its a 6TCU but its a 243!!! In Moonshots post and the 11 replys no one ever said "243 Winchester". You guys should get a mind reading jobs as there is maybe 100 different "243s" out there.

quote:

Originally posted by Fat_Albert:

quote:

FA with all due respect, 243 is the 243 win, all others must add clarification.

Could you let me no what book that is written in? Its all a matter of "SAFETY" Your the moderator of this area and your coming off with a "good old boy" attitude. You should be the one jumping on this not condoning it.

why don't you NOT have a meltdown, trying to prove you are right, when no one agrees with your POV.

have a look at the poll results AGAIN

jeffeosso: why don"t you let everyone know what this is all about. You and 10 other people were giving advice and load data for a 243 Win. when the person asked for informathion on a 243? When I questioned that it was unsafe to be giving advice and data for a cartrige that you were not sure of. you came back with a "everybody knew that it was a 243 Win" How did they know that? Can you give me some load data on a 300? I'm sure YOU know the one I'm talking about.