quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Cliff, Thanks for the link. Do you think there is any chance there could be some Marketeering tossed in the descriptions?

By the way, if you do decide to Hunt with one of these, I hope you get the results you want.

Hotsh#t

Congratulations over and over!!!!!!!!!!

Sounds like you visited the site. Good for you. I knew all along that you could do it.

Thanks again and the best of luck to you!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

From the data (and photos) presented in this thread, I have to agree with Hot Core.....The Berger bullets are not hunting bullets.

Marketing????......yup...something like that!

The term, "hunting bullets" is totally subjective. Just as "deer rifle" may subjectively mean a .223 Remington to some. I would have to say that just about any bullet will work no matter how frangible if the impact velocity is correct for the construction. I'm sure you've seen the online table called "the best hunting bullet" that shows all brands of bullets and their condition after impact at various velocities. The notoriously more frangible bullets at lower impact velocities hold together like a premium. That's why they use Bergers on the Best of the West long range hunting show. They want long range shots. The impact velocity of the bullet has slowed to the point to where the bullet works with dramatic results. I would bet a 50 yard shot with the 7 mag with a Berger may be different and is more of a possibility to the average hunter than the 500 yard shot.

I think the marketing is a disservice to the average hunter and the game he intends to take.

The result may be a deer blown in half, catapulting through the air like a prarie dog shot with a 22-250 or more likely, total bullet failure.

Quick question;

Is a 25ACP a "deer" caliber?????? Seems like Hotsh#t hunting buddies think it is.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

The term, "hunting bullets" is totally subjective.

In this photo the subjectivity is quite standoutish.

Personally, it's not at all subjective to me friend!

Me either.

I was just pointing out that the label "hunting bullet" can be used like ".223 deer rifle" to suit the belief of the labeler!

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

From the data (and photos) presented in this thread, I have to agree with Hot Core.....The Berger bullets are not hunting bullets.

Marketing????......yup...something like that!

The term, "hunting bullets" is totally subjective. Just as "deer rifle" may subjectively mean a .223 Remington to some. I would have to say that just about any bullet will work no matter how frangible if the impact velocity is correct for the construction. I'm sure you've seen the online table called "the best hunting bullet" that shows all brands of bullets and their condition after impact at various velocities. The notoriously more frangible bullets at lower impact velocities hold together like a premium. That's why they use Bergers on the Best of the West long range hunting show. They want long range shots. The impact velocity of the bullet has slowed to the point to where the bullet works with dramatic results. I would bet a 50 yard shot with the 7 mag with a Berger may be different and is more of a possibility to the average hunter than the 500 yard shot.

I think the marketing is a disservice to the average hunter and the game he intends to take.

The result may be a deer blown in half, catapulting through the air like a prarie dog shot with a 22-250 or more likely, total bullet failure.

Quick question;

Is a 25ACP a "deer" caliber?????? Seems like Hotsh#t hunting buddies think it is.

No.

It was a joke thread and quite funny to read!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Cliff, Thanks for the link. Do you think there is any chance there could be some Marketeering tossed in the descriptions?
By the way, if you do decide to Hunt with one of these, I hope you get the results you want.

Absolutely there is marketeering involved in Berger hunting bullets as well as every other brand of hunting bullets. Marketeering is quite different than false advertising, though.

quote:

The Berger bullets are not hunting bullets.

The vast majority of the deer hunting masses go in and buy two or three boxes of whatever the local store sells as "hunting ammunition".

Generally, they worry little about the issues addressed in this thread---

AND they kill deer every season with "cheap" off the shelf ammo --

That, likewise, will not stay together on a 50 yard shot with a 7mag ,guess those are not hunting bullets either.



I have used the production Bergers and several other production premium bullets; and frankly I am perplexed by such bias against the Bergers.

As a whole,I have no complaints with the today's excellent bullets of many namesakes.

If a particular rifle showed a greater affinity for accuracy with another brand; I would use that more accurate bullet.

At high velocity against close targets, especially upon contacting bone, most non-solid or non- monolithic bullets fragment badly, even some of the "best" bonded ones.

If I were hunting tough large targets at short distances I would choose a differently constructed bullet.

For "thin-skinned game" at one hundred to several hundred yards, the Bergers have consistently produced the expected result for me and many others.


My important questions for such use are:

What is the objective of a "Hunting Bullet"?

1.) To kill quickly and efficiently routinely?

2.) To be as repeatably precisely accurate as the weapon will allow;

so as to deliver an expectation of a routine, quick, and efficient kill?



So,if not these criteria then what criteria are more important?

Retained weight?

A perfect mushroom?

The ability to out penetrate any other bullet for a "Texas Heart Shot"?

Having a "storied", "traditional" or "historic" and well marketed "namesake" of a bullet?

quote:

I have used the production Bergers and several other production premium bullets; and frankly I am perplexed by such bias against the Bergers.

The concern I have with them is hitting bone and coming apart before enough penetration is obtained. As I said before animals are killed with Bergers and SMK. You believe in them and Bobby obviously has killed game with the Bergers.

I prefer premium bullets for hunting. A-Frames, North Forks, and Barnes TSX are my favorites.

That is my opinion, it matters not to me what others shoot. I post my results from testing and hunting and people can decide from there.

I will say this, in conventional terms the test Bobby posted with the Berger is a failure. It is also the only time I have seen a test where all of the pieces of the bullet are weighed.

Again we all can shoot what we want, however this is the answer to my bias about shooting big game with Bergers.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

I have used the production Bergers and several other production premium bullets; and frankly I am perplexed by such bias against the Bergers.

The concern I have with them is hitting bone and coming apart before enough penetration is obtained. As I said before animals are killed with Bergers and SMK. You believe in them and Bobby obviously has killed game with the Bergers.

I prefer premium bullets for hunting. A-Frames, North Forks, and Barnes TSX are my favorites.

That is my opinion, it matters not to me what others shoot. I post my results from testing and hunting and people can decide from there.

I will say this, in conventional terms the test Bobby posted with the Berger is a failure. It is also the only time I have seen a test where all of the pieces of the bullet are weighed.

Again we all can shoot what we want, however this is the answer to my bias about shooting big game with Bergers.

Excellent post.....well said!

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

The Berger bullets are not hunting bullets.

The vast majority of the deer hunting masses go in and buy two or three boxes of whatever the local store sells as "hunting ammunition".

Generally, they worry little about the issues addressed in this thread---

AND they kill deer every season with "cheap" off the shelf ammo --

That, likewise, will not stay together on a 50 yard shot with a 7mag ,guess those are not hunting bullets either.



I have used the production Bergers and several other production premium bullets; and frankly I am perplexed by such bias against the Bergers.

As a whole,I have no complaints with the today's excellent bullets of many namesakes.

If a particular rifle showed a greater affinity for accuracy with another brand; I would use that more accurate bullet.

At high velocity against close targets, especially upon contacting bone, most non-solid or non- monolithic bullets fragment badly, even some of the "best" bonded ones.

If I were hunting tough large targets at short distances I would choose a differently constructed bullet.

For "thin-skinned game" at one hundred to several hundred yards, the Bergers have consistently produced the expected result for me and many others.


My important questions for such use are:

What is the objective of a "Hunting Bullet"?

1.) To kill quickly and efficiently routinely?

2.) To be as repeatably precisely accurate as the weapon will allow;

so as to deliver an expectation of a routine, quick, and efficient kill?



So,if not these criteria then what criteria are more important?

Retained weight?

A perfect mushroom?

The ability to out penetrate any other bullet for a "Texas Heart Shot"?

Having a "storied", "traditional" or "historic" and well marketed "namesake" of a bullet?

DuggaBoye

I think your post has created a bunch of concerned confusion in this thread. What you are speaking from is a wealth of experience and I would have thought by now that you would have realized that it's not experience that matters as much as what your OPINION is based upon not doing something. There is a fundamentalist group on these threads lead by a Pied Piper that believes that not doing something is far superior to receiving in the field experience.

I agree with your comment 101%. To me the results obtained in the field by your own experience oo by the experience of watching the events take place is the standard to follow.

I've had experience with penciling shots of the Nosler Partitions through a large mulie buck at 200 yards shot with a .270 through the ribs off a large rock rest. It required another shot by me and then another shot by my hunting buddy at close range before it died. Fortunately it was in an area where we could observe it all the time. I don't use Nosler Partitions anymore.

Some lads will say that by using these premium bullets it allows them to use smaller calibers with great results. While I support the use of smaller caliber shooters, the bullets selected have to be used with care to avoid penciling through and the desired effect of the caliber and bullet is to meet your objectives No. 1 and No.2 as stated above. I like to follow those 2 objectives based on experience.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
It was a joke thread ...

teenScum would never have realized that if you had not told him. Pitiful and Pathetic!

[/QUOTE]
From the data (and photos) presented in this thread, I have to agree with Hot Core[/B[B]].....The Berger bullets are not hunting bullets.
Marketing????......yup...something like that![/QUOTE]
I don't know, is anyone aware of another bullet manufacturer claiming to have a hunting bullet without it being so? It's not the bullet I would use for tough skinned game, certainly. But does that mean it is not a hunting bullet?

quote:

I think your post has created a bunch of concerned confusion in this thread. What you are speaking from is a wealth of experience and I would have thought by now that you would have realized that it's not experience that matters as much as what your OPINION is based upon not doing something.

In case this is directed at me I will respond.

First, the comment about "opinions based on not doing things". Here is another example of an opinion based on not doing something. I do not hunt elephants with a 30-06. My opinion is it is not adequate. It is not based on the experience of hunting elephants with a 30-06 and wounding one to have it stomp/gore/smash me to death. It is based on several factors which I believe are true.

The same goes for the Bergers. If you read some of my other post you will note that I have killed two deer with Match Kings (I consider them similar to the Berger) One whitetail doe with a 200 grain bullet out of a 30-338 match rifle at 327 yards, DRT, no bullet revovery. the second was with my M1A on an axis doe with 168 Grain MK. 100 yards DRT. These were only 120 pound animals. It does not take much to put one down.

I know Berger work, even the SMK do, I have seen it first hand. JWP475 shoots some pretty big animals with .338 300 Grain SMK if I am not mistaken. My main concern is as I said before hitting major bones especially on an off angle shot and losing an animal.

As far as caliber, the smallest caliber I have ever killed anything deer size or larger is a .284, so using premium bullets does not seduce me in to using smaller calibers.

I will be testing 7MM bullets soon. I can even slow them down using a 7 by 30 Waters I have to match long range velocity.

And it all matters to me.

Accuracy
Good weight retention at a wide range of velocities (that is tough)
The perfect mushroom is nice.
And anchoring an animal on the spot.
Penetration is important but way more so on solids than softs.

I can discuss this and share experience and opinions as long as it remains civil. That seems to be a rare thing around here at times. Hell we could even start a Terminal Bullet Performance thread in the small caliber or medium bore forums.

Good Shooting,

I post in this thread with no hostility, nor ulterior motive.

I agree that one's freedom to select the projectile of choice is each individuals prerogative.

Personal attacks and p!$$!%# matches aside, I have posted personal experience with the Bergers , though less illustratively than Mr. Tomek.

I see no flies on A-Frames, Bear Claws, TSX, North Fork, Nosler, Hawk, Grand Slam, Combined-Technology, Woodliegh, etc, etc, etc, etc,
and have loaded these and several others in the past, and anticipate continued use in the future.

That said-- the concept that Mr. Tomek's article represents "failure" in "conventional terms" I do not accept.

But then opinions are just that, opinions.

Whether they be mine or others.

Data on the other hand is equally just that, data.

In comparison of wound channel and penetration 16+ inches reaches the vitals of--deer. pigs, elk, etc, etc. (Even without the discussion of secondary missiles , hydrostatic shock and other trauma, the data ,both lab(newsprint) and real world--hog) suggests a more than satisfactory performance envelope.

Other projectiles may equal or even exceed the penetration-- yet dead is dead, is dead,
and is documented.

The notion that all "hunting bullets" must retain maximum weight, develop mushroom architecture and penetrate concrete composite planks backed by plywood does not represent real world data on deer, sheep, goats, pigs, etc.

The utter dismissal of Bergers , or for that matter, Winchester Power points, old style non-bonded Remington Core-Lokt, etc, etc, as "not hunting bullets" flies directly in the face of repeatable an documented results.

I have nothing deleterious to state with respect to other "premium" bullets-- I have in the past, currently, and will in the future use them.

However, for most "thin-skinned" game particularly, whitetail deer, the Bergers , in my weapons , represent precise and reliable execution of my agenda--
rapid, efficient, precision placement kills.

I can ask little more of a projectile.

DB,

Thank you for the response. You have been a gentleman on this thread.

When you dig a bullet out of a dead animal and it is not perfect, at what point did the bullet fail while killing the animal.

As far as the berger being a failure in the test, as you noted I used conventional terms. Historically, the others such as Barnes, Swift, (and me) look at retained weight as being an important factor in bullet performance.

The newspaper, composite planks, and plywood stress a bullet far more than any deer ever will. Mostly I think in terms of bigger animals when I look at bullet performance but sometimes lump everything including deer in that thinking. Bobby and I PMd and had a short discussion on how he set up his test. A little different, hard to set-up and a very good test.

Do you feel the Berger is constructed so you could kill a moose with a 300 Win Mag at 200 yards with one, though the shoulder? through the ribs? I know I jumped from deer to moose but since you have field experience, just curious as to what you feel are the limits.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
...The utter dismissal of Bergers , or for that matter, Winchester Power points, old style non-bonded Remington Core-Lokt, etc, etc, as "not hunting bullets" flies directly in the face of repeatable an documented results. ...

The Bergers are not designed the same as the Win Power Points, and nothing even close to the Rem Core-Lokt design.

I saw no mention of Win or Rem bullets being Inadequate in this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
...The utter dismissal of Bergers , or for that matter, Winchester Power points, old style non-bonded Remington Core-Lokt, etc, etc, as "not hunting bullets" flies directly in the face of repeatable an documented results. ...

The Bergers are not designed the same as the Win Power Points, and nothing even close to the Rem Core-Lokt design.
I saw no mention of Win or Rem bullets being Inadequate in this thread.

Fact!!!!!.....Why do we have to add words that weren't there?

I don't think the Bergers would be my choice for Texas Heartshots, but then Texas Heartshots wouldn't be my choice either. I don't like my venison tasting like ass.

quote:

Originally posted by BECoole:
I don't like my venison tasting like ass.

Me either!!!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
...The utter dismissal of Bergers , or for that matter, Winchester Power points, old style non-bonded Remington Core-Lokt, etc, etc, as "not hunting bullets" flies directly in the face of repeatable an documented results. ...

The Bergers are not designed the same as the Win Power Points, and nothing even close to the Rem Core-Lokt design.
I saw no mention of Win or Rem bullets being Inadequate in this thread.

Fact!!!!!.....Why do we have to add words that weren't there?

The arguments applied "historically" to "standard" bullets lack of appropriateness are the same relative issue being used in the dismissal of the Bergers as "hunting" bullets verses the other" premium" bullets.


(One would generally assume the "standard" "hunting" ammunition by almost any manufacturer is not considered "premium".)



Thus, the variously branded "standard" "cup and core" bullets,
"lack of performance",
"fragility" and
"lack of retained weight" issues,
over the years past(and present)
both by hunters acknowledgements and gunwriters prose relating to the "standard" bullets, has been, is, and will be the reason evolution to "premium" constructed bullets occurred and will continue to occur.

Same argument,
that is why they were mentioned.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
DB,

Thank you for the response. You have been a gentleman on this thread.

When you dig a bullet out of a dead animal and it is not perfect, at what point did the bullet fail while killing the animal.

As far as the berger being a failure in the test, as you noted I used conventional terms. Historically, the others such as Barnes, Swift, (and me) look at retained weight as being an important factor in bullet performance.

The newspaper, composite planks, and plywood stress a bullet far more than any deer ever will. Mostly I think in terms of bigger animals when I look at bullet performance but sometimes lump everything including deer in that thinking. Bobby and I PMd and had a short discussion on how he set up his test. A little different, hard to set-up and a very good test.

Do you feel the Berger is constructed so you could kill a moose with a 300 Win Mag at 200 yards with one, though the shoulder? through the ribs? I know I jumped from deer to moose but since you have field experience, just curious as to what you feel are the limits.

I and others have used Berger Hunting VLD's to take hogs, elk , mule deer and whitetail at those ranges.(and beyond)

Having only bagged two moose , both in thick cover and close range, I have no actual information to share on 2 to 300 yard shots on moose.

I will say performance has been excellent on large hogs and elk , using high shoulder placement to anchor those animals via spine and shoulder trauma.

quote:

Originally posted by BECoole:
I don't think the Bergers would be my choice for Texas Heartshots, but then Texas Heartshots wouldn't be my choice either. I don't like my venison tasting like ass.

As I said it would not be my preference either.
(with Bergers or any one elses bullet.)

Nor have I taken one on a thin-skinned animal.


Nor would I take one with a solid on DG unless;
a previously hit animal was fleeing and this was the only angle presented.

quote:

The arguments applied "historically" to "standard" bullets lack of appropriateness are the same relative issue being used in the dismissal of the Bergers as "hunting" bullets verses the other" premium" bullets.


(One would generally assume the "standard" "hunting" ammunition by almost any manufacturer is not considered "premium".)



Thus, the variously branded "standard" "cup and core" bullets,
"lack of performance",
"fragility" and
"lack of retained weight" issues,
over the years past(and present)
both by hunters acknowledgements and gunwriters prose relating to the "standard" bullets, has been, is, and will be the reason evolution to "premium" constructed bullets occurred and will continue to occur.

Same argument,
that is why they were mentioned.

I think you will discover the corelokts and power points will look much like the last several bullets in this photo.

There is no comparison with these bullets and the Bergers......none whatever!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

I think your post has created a bunch of concerned confusion in this thread. What you are speaking from is a wealth of experience and I would have thought by now that you would have realized that it's not experience that matters as much as what your OPINION is based upon not doing something.

In case this is directed at me I will respond.

First, the comment about "opinions based on not doing things". Here is another example of an opinion based on not doing something. I do not hunt elephants with a 30-06. My opinion is it is not adequate. It is not based on the experience of hunting elephants with a 30-06 and wounding one to have it stomp/gore/smash me to death. It is based on several factors which I believe are true.

The same goes for the Bergers. If you read some of my other post you will note that I have killed two deer with Match Kings (I consider them similar to the Berger) One whitetail doe with a 200 grain bullet out of a 30-338 match rifle at 327 yards, DRT, no bullet revovery. the second was with my M1A on an axis doe with 168 Grain MK. 100 yards DRT. These were only 120 pound animals. It does not take much to put one down.

I know Berger work, even the SMK do, I have seen it first hand. JWP475 shoots some pretty big animals with .338 300 Grain SMK if I am not mistaken. My main concern is as I said before hitting major bones especially on an off angle shot and losing an animal.

As far as caliber, the smallest caliber I have ever killed anything deer size or larger is a .284, so using premium bullets does not seduce me in to using smaller calibers.

I will be testing 7MM bullets soon. I can even slow them down using a 7 by 30 Waters I have to match long range velocity.

And it all matters to me.

Accuracy
Good weight retention at a wide range of velocities (that is tough)
The perfect mushroom is nice.
And anchoring an animal on the spot.
Penetration is important but way more so on solids than softs.

I can discuss this and share experience and opinions as long as it remains civil. That seems to be a rare thing around here at times. Hell we could even start a Terminal Bullet Performance thread in the small caliber or medium bore forums.

Good Shooting,

Is your name DuggaBoye???????

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
...The utter dismissal of Bergers , or for that matter, Winchester Power points, old style non-bonded Remington Core-Lokt, etc, etc, as "not hunting bullets" flies directly in the face of repeatable an documented results. ...

The Bergers are not designed the same as the Win Power Points, and nothing even close to the Rem Core-Lokt design.
I saw no mention of Win or Rem bullets being Inadequate in this thread.

Fact!!!!!.....Why do we have to add words that weren't there?

Hotsh#t:

Ye ole butt shooting Berger Bullet .25ACP boy good to see that you crawled out of the sewer to spread your ............oh nevermind.

Looks like you're caught again in your lies concerning the quotes in the above posts on the mention of Win and Rem bullets. I think you'll find in the first quote the words "Winchester Power Points and old style non-bonded Remington Core-lokt, etc". If you follow your pattern of the past when caught lying, you will lie low for a couple of days and never refer to this line of discussion.

You're starting to sound more and more like your favorite boy Obama in your statements. Pitiful and Pathetic at best.

With Much Love and Concern.

For those of you with enough intelligence to follow the thread, surely everyone except teenScum realized when I "Quoted" DB with the reference to Win and Rem, and then mentioned they had not been previously mentioned in the thread, that I was refering to posts prior to DBs.

teenScum never makes a post that dosen't show how totally brain dead he really is. A Pitiful and Pathetic Liar just like his hero obummmmmer.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
For those of you with enough intelligence to follow the thread, surely everyone except teenScum realized when I "Quoted" DB with the reference to Win and Rem, and then mentioned they had not been previously mentioned in the thread, that I was refering to posts prior to DBs.

teenScum never makes a post that dosen't show how totally brain dead he really is. A Pitiful and Pathetic Liar just like his hero obummmmmer.

YO Buttshooter

Here's your family flag AKA Buttshooter





Can you imagine being wrong over 8,100 times!!!!

quote:

think you will discover the corelokts and power points will look much like the last several bullets in this photo.

That is not my experience.

My experience years back with hogs, deer etc
utilizing standard "hardware store" ammunition in 270 Win and 30-06,was when recovered; they indeed looked like the Bergers-- fragmented, distorted, low weight etc.

My point was not that they were "bad" bullets, my point was most hunters killed with them and never recovered them or paid little attention to them when they were recovered, and since they killed most hunters did not care what the appearance was.

Most often they were not recovered, having left a substantial exit wound on the opposite rib cage.

It was not their fragmenting that initially sent me in search of another bullet;
it was their lack of reproducible small groups and the quest for accuracy.


Although,frankly, I have not used "standard" bullets on game nor ballistic test media in decades.

Could they have improved during the interim, most likely they have.

Some hunters,including me,found them to have accuracy deficits, and pursued a more accurate projectile and in doing so discovered "premium" bullets.

"Premium" meaning accurate as the first quality and durability and weight retention, mushroom architecture and penetration as potential secondary benefits.

Forty plus years ago as I began to handload and read as much as possible about such things, I discovered numerous custom bullet makers.

Later I began to do ballistic testing with wet newspaper and phonebooks; later , plastic water jugs and ultimately ballistic media.

As,I aged and had more funds I constructed more accurate rifles and learned of even more precision bullet crafters.

And on and on-- leading up to today.

I do not wish to force Bergers on anyone
(like Obamacare has been thrust upon us all);

I wish to point out that on thin-skinned American game --they work, as simply as that.

I still load Barnes, Sierra, Woodleigh, Advanced-Technology, Swift,Hawk, NorthFork, Nosler, Hornady, Lapua, Norma, RWS etc, etc, etc

I hope soon to load some GSC's, Rhino's, and others.

If I find a more accurate bullet, I 'll likely try it.

For now, the Bergers serve me well.

DuggaBoye-O




Great Post.

This is a very interesting thread. We have a certain number of posters here who have experience with the bullet in question and are of the opinion it is a hunting bullet and a good one at that.

On the other hand, we have a certain number of posters who, unless I missed something, have not used the berger hunting bullet in a hunting environment and are firmly of the opinion it is NOT a hunting bullet.

So if a fellow just happened on to this thread at our current point, who do you guys think he might be inclined to believe? Those with experience with the bullet or those with none?

By the way, I am working off memory here and I won't re-read the entire thread so if my claim that certain posters who are of the opinion the berger bullet is not a hunting bullet actually have experience with the hunting VLD, I do apologize.

Cliff,

Look at it this way. I do not stick my finger in a light socket with the switch on. I do not do it because I tried it once, I choose not to from other experiences.

Some on here prefer the accuracy of the Bergers. They feel it is the most important thing if the bullet performs sufficiently (or better) at impact.

Some, including me, are willing to give up a little accuracy for what we feel is a better performing bullet on impact.

Who is ultimately right? Hell we all kill deer and other animals with each. Sometimes I wonder how any game was killed 100 years ago.

The other day I posted that I never shot a big game animal with anything smaller than a .284 caliber. That is not quite true. In the past 30 years I have killed well over 1000 alligators (I have averaged around 50 tags each year) mostly with a 22 magnum. Granted it is at point blank range but they are all dead.

For smaller game like deer I wonder if we get too wrapped up in what it takes to kill one, but it does make for some fun on the internet.

Mike,
I won't argue with your post. It's a matter of personal preference, I suppose.

Personal preference really sums it up. I like the discussions like this it makes me think a little different.

For big toothy, horned, thick hide critters like in Africa I will always use what I feel is the toughest bullet. We have so many good softs and solids these days it sometimes boils down to what shoots best in your rifle.

Obviously for deer and those size critters the Bergers work fine or even better(even MKs work from limited personal experience)

I do love this stuff, probably a little too much, as I can see me doing accuracy and performance test in the near future with the bergers.

Thanks,

A number of valid points have been brought up in this discussion. Because of my involvement with handgun hunting for many years, where appropriate projectiles and optimum velocity windows for bullet performance put unique requirements on both the shooter and the ultimate choice of loads, I’ve always paid particular attention to terminal ballistics – almost to the point of obsession. But I’ve always felt we owe it to the animals we hunt to make the cleanest kill we possibly can.

Thanks to some ongoing health issues, I’ve had to abandon the handgun hunting but still have a vested interest in the projectiles as I don’t always use mainstream tools. Much of my hunting over the past few seasons has been done with Contender carbines, and those pedestrian speeds also make one give serious thought to the choice of projectile.

Yes, I’ve used premiums. And yes, I’ve used cup-and-core. But those plain-Jane cup-and-cores work exceptionally well for me as I don’t push them to warp speed, and no matter the size of the antlers, I’ll never try and drive a bullet into the south end of a north-bound buck. I prefer reasonable ranges and place a premium on precise shot placement.

And for those who think the Ballistic Tip is inferior for hunting, I can assure you that 120s in both 6.5 and 7mm along with 150 grainers in .30 caliber – given muzzle velocities of 2400-2800 fps – will drive completely through the chest of virtually any broadside deer, and I’ve taken plenty of hogs in which the BTs penetrated completely as well. In fact, across the board, the Nosler BTs will penetrate as much as -- and oft-times more than -- a similar Rem CL or WW Power-Point.

As to the other end of the spectrum and the solid copper offerings from Barnes, they may hit like the hammer of Thor at higher velocities, but, given sub-.30 caliber bores and modest speeds, they are among the least authoritative in my applications. Yes, they do work, but in my usage, they do not represent the best overall choice, but again, my situation and requirements are not always representative of other hunters. (My hog hunting comments are based on kills that number well into three figures.)

So what works well for me may not be the best choice for the guy down the street.

In an ideal world, every recovered bullet would retain at least 90 percent of its weight, expand to more than double its diameter, shoot completely through game from every conceivable angle and offer not only a high sectional density but also provide match-grade accuracy.

But in the real world, it’s somewhat less important to me how the resting projectile looks as long as the game shot with it resembles the final five photos below and was killed both quickly and cleanly.

Let's see...
The thread orginally began with the .224 80 grain Bergers in a .223 Rem with 8 twist for target use and has now morphed into a terminal ballistics thread.

I love it!

quote:

Cliff,

Look at it this way. I do not stick my finger in a light socket with the switch on. I do not do it because I tried it once, I choose not to from other experiences.

Some on here prefer the accuracy of the Bergers. They feel it is the most important thing if the bullet performs sufficiently (or better) at impact.

For smaller game like deer I wonder if we get too wrapped up in what it takes to kill one, but it does make for some fun on the internet.

Mike
DRSS

I'm in complete agreement! I don't know why there is so much hang up here with "if you've never had personal experience with it, you know nothing about it".

It's called "learning" and you can do it by gathering information from others and digesting it with your intelligent common sense that God gave you.

It's pretty easy to see from Bobby's test that the Berger bullet "failed", not his test as was Duggaboye's statement. Now this label, "failed", I believe is based on how much weight retention the bullet had after impact and that's how the term is used most often. But if that's how that bullet looks after impact and animals fold in their tracks, did the bullet "fail"? To most yes, but to others not.

With perfect bread basket shots behind the shoulder at ranges where impact velocity has slowed enough to make the Berger hold together a little better, I'm sure it's just the ticket.
As would be any target bullet. SMK, A-Max, etc. Dramatic DRT type performance; the quickest kill imaginable.

But one should not choose a hunting bullet this way. It should be chosen on the basis of the worst possible case scenario; will the bullet kill or anchor the animal even with a poorly placed shot hitting tough bone or will the bullet still perform for a quick kill at close range/high velocity impact. This is where the common sense comes in while looking at how bullets look at different impact velocities. Whether or not the tests are valid because of the nature of the impact media not accurately representing tissue and bone, I don't know, but that's the best we have to draw from.

I've had Accubonds, Partitions, and Nosler BT's "fail". In the case of the Accubonds and BT's the bullets killed the animal well but came apart. In the case of the Partition, it penciled at 150 yards resulting in a suffering mule deer. (150 gr out of an '06, behind the shoulder between the ribs on both entrance and exit)

rcamuglia

quote:

not his test as was Duggaboye's statement.

DuggaBoye

quote:

That said-- the concept that Mr. Tomek's article represents "failure" in "conventional terms" I do not accept.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
rcamuglia

quote:

not his test as was Duggaboye's statement.

DuggaBoye

quote:

That said-- the concept that Mr. Tomek's article represents "failure" in "conventional terms" I do not accept.

I must have misunderstood your post. I read it as "Personal attacks and p!$$!%# matches aside, I have posted personal experience with the Bergers , though less illustratively than Mr. Tomek.

I see no flies on A-Frames, Bear Claws, TSX, North Fork, Nosler, Hawk, Grand Slam, Combined-Technology, Woodliegh, etc, etc, etc, etc,
and have loaded these and several others in the past, and anticipate continued use in the future.

That said-- the concept that Mr. Tomek's article represents "failure" in "conventional terms" I do not accept.

But then opinions are just that, opinions."



Which I interpreted as his test or "article" was a failure. You don't believe that the condition of the Berger pictured would be termed "failure"? If that is what happens to a Berger "Hunting Bullet" at such a slow velocity as 2300 fps, I sure wouldn't want to use them in any cartridge capable of 3200 fps!