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HHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Hotsh#t How are ya doing little buddy???? I don't know for sure but it kinda seems like you're avoiding this visit to the Berger website. Tell me it isn't so!!!!!!!!!!! You mentioned that you were looking for a credible source for the use of VLD bullets in a hunting situation. I know this will sound funny but maybe the manufacturer of the bullets would be a credible source????? Perhaps, in the search for truth, it would warrant a visit by you and then posting a report here for all your little buddies to see. What do ya think???????????? Somehow I get the impression that you are avoiding this issue completely and I need you to tell us that is not the case. On the other hand, if you feel that such a visit and report would prove, and I have to add AGAIN, that you are pontificating (look it up) on the validity of another PITIFUL OPINION of yours, then I think we would all know how to address your posts both past and future. I know from the heart of my bottom that you are only interested in the pursuit of truth to help our fellow reloaders on this forum. Any thought of personal aggrandizement(another big word for you) are the farthest things from your mind and that you would never stoop to fabrication of any of your posts. OOOOOppppsssss........there was that one post of shooting over 1,000 whitetails!!!!!! Oh well. Wishing you the very best. | |||
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Man this thread has taken some twist and turns. Obviously there are some personality conflicts here but each to his own. There is no doubt that Bergers are accurate. I still shoot High Power with SMKs, but like some people I know say "Friends do not let friends shoot Sierra" and they shoot Berger. Looking at the pictures of the fired bullets I would call the Berger a total failure. Yes I know it will kill whitetail but it is not what I look for in a bullet. Also I have committed the act of shooting a deer with SMKs twice, both DRT, one with a 200 grain .308 the other with a 168 grain .308. My point is the Berger is a premium target bullet, but just adequate in the hunting world. To me it would be like shooting North Forks or Swifts in a High Power match, they will work just not as well as other bullets. I do not want to be dragged in to the personality conflict but that is my humble opinion. This is what I want a soft to look like on recovery.   | |||
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On the Berger....I fully agree.....not my choice in bullets! On the SMKs.....I know folks that use Hornady A-Max for deer and love them..... I'm with you and the photo of the Northfork (one of my favorite bullets) is exactly what I want the recovered bullet (assuming it was recoverable) to look like. I even consider any bullet that sheds it's jacket to have failed....even though it may have killed a deer DRT!....as for bullets that break into many pieces (Berger and A-Max)....someone else can have them.....I want something else. All the other bullets in that photo look great....even the Sierra.....and I'm no Sierra fan! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I have shot Berger Hunting VLD's 210's (production not prototypes) from my 300RUM with results as Bobby described. I have also used the .308 175gr and the 6.5 140 gr. hunting VLD's at "standard" velocities with similar results. Scoff if you like---they simply work and are very accurate. I think if I were taking on a Zebra shoulder shot I might use a differently constructed bullet-- but on a lung shot I believe the Bergers would work as before on lighter game. DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Just to show what a non-thinking jellyfish Hot Core really is, here is what he posted regarding the Berger VLD-Hunting bullet testing the FIRST time I posted it: "Any Editor would be a complete fool not to jump at the opportunity to "pay" you for that kind of information. Great job!" And now, he'd done the Jeckel and Hyde thing again. Make up your mind, Hot Core -- if you actually have the ability to do so. By the way, you never showed a single photo -- as many had requested -- of ANY of the "many thousands of deer" you claim to have killed. Hmmm...wonder if he even knows how to operate a gun. Pitiful. Pathetic. And typical of Mr. Melting at the Seams, aka Hot Core. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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Haven't changed my mind at all. An Editor would be a fool not to pay for that shilling of Berger Bullets. That is exactly what they look for. --- I do keep forgetting you are so STUPID that you don't even know how to string a Recurve. Obviously you form the "Fourth Brother" to the other three Lying IDIOTS. | |||
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Hot Core- As a rule, I get along with everyone, but you have proven to be the exception. You are immature, vulgar and the type of person normal, respectable folks migrate away from. Your repeated lies and persistent name-calling have no place in an adult world. If you have nothing better to offer, then why the hell not just shut up??? Seriously, do yourself and everyone around you a favor and seek some professional help. You owe that much to your family. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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don't forget to tell them to read page 3, where the buyer and I worked this out.. where I was complimented on not engaging in mutual mudslinging... and how I went out and spent $150.00 out of my own pocket to make something that ended up needing repair, made it right... and declined the offer by the buyer to split the cost.. just to make it right.. Face it Hot Bored...no one else on the thread likes your input and all you do is give everyone shit..and piss on them for not buying into your self professed hero status.. And yeah, feel free to lump me in with other quality guys, just as long as you don't lump me in with you.. all will be fine.. | |||
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Now you all have done it. I may not be able to sleep well tonight.  | |||
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John- You are absolutely right. Lots of good, knowledgable people no longer posts where HC roams. He's even run off Dr. Ken Oehler, who was so gracious as to try and share his ballistics expertise until Hot Core and his running buddy started the name calling, accusations and made some very negative remarks about Dr. Oehler's business. In fact, the attack on Dr. Oehler was so rabid that the AR site owner had to intervene, which is a rarity here, so you know it must have gotten rather out of hand for that to occur. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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Bobby, I appreciate your thoughts and evidence on the Berger VLD. I have not used any but plan to this spring on some Oklahoma hogs. | |||
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Yes Bobby, Excellent report rather others agree with your conclusions or not..  | |||
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Cliff and Low Wall- Thanks. I appreciate it. You know, while the Bergers are not my first choice for hunting, when the company re-vamped some of their target bullets with hunters in mind, they set certain goals and have obviously achieved them. An acquaintence of mine in south Texas has now taken about a dozen hogs with the 7mm 140 grain VLD-Hunting bullet and has reported one-shot kills in each instance. He shoots a well-worn Ruger 77 that he had re-barreled to 7mm-08 a few yeats ago. I don't recall the velocity of his load but will check on that the next time I talk with him. I do seem to recall that most of his shots have been something on the order of 100 to maybe 150 yards. I've been wanting to do a bit more testing with the Berger hunting bullets, but right now, my health just isn't cooperating. When I do, though, I'll post the results -- good, bad or ugly  -- right here for all to see.Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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Bobby, I have been performing quite a bit of bullet testing recently. Mostly 470 Nitro and 375 H&H. If you give me a suggestion on caliber, velocity and test media, I can maybe perform some tests in the next couple of weeks. Today I was testing North Fork and TSX bullets for the 375. Range is 33 feet. The test today was 12" of wet newsprint, a Hardy Plank (approximately 5/8" thick), 3/4" piece of plywood, then more wet newsprint. I place the hardy board and plywood in the box to simulate bone. For fun today I fired a 155 Grain SMK Palma load in to the box. Impact velocity was 3005 FPS. The bullet literally disintegrated when it hit the hardy board. I will post the full results of the 375 in the Big Bore section. I was pleasantly suprised with the TSX results. Nearly 100% weight retention even through the hardy board and plywood. Hope you get to feeling better. | |||
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Ha! Sounds like you are becoming addicted to wet newspaper Mike. The "Terminal Bullet Performance" thread is the first thread I check out after the Single Shot forum every morning. Very interesting work even for someone like me who has no need for Solids hunting N. Amer. game. I am really impressed how the .375/300gr NF soft held together at that high impact vel. Keep up the good work!.. | |||
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So you believe that letting a guy go through all that stress over a broken Gun (which you apparently mis-represented) for 4 months, then apparently being SHAMED into doing the right thing by being exposed on multiple Boards, before you finally did a thing to correct the issue makes you a man of Character. I see you still have a bunch fooled in that thread.----- The "Truth" is that Dr Oehler still posts here, or did until his Grandchildren needed more of his time. Dr. Oehler was very nice to answer a bunch of rather tough questions concerning his Haphazard(his choice of words)SGS in this thread, if anyone cares to see what he posted. I found it very interesting that after our civil discussion, Dr. Oehler pulled the Haphazard SGS off the market for people outside of a Lab Environment. That it provided information(not Data) which was, very misleading to totally worthless, outside a Lab Environment(where it provides excellent Data) is what we had said for years. Obviously his actions to remove it from the public market showed he was in complete agreement. And of course the never-improved upon, always-reliable, relatively-inexpensive(under $30), easy to use, calibratable, CHE & PRE totally destroyed the results provided by a Non-Calibrated, Guessed at dimension, fudge-factored, way too expensive($3000 for the HSGS & Laptop) M43, by a non-biased Beginner in this thread. That simply verified that the Haphazard SGS was worthless, outside of a Lab. ----- Meant to comment on your flicks before. Pretty pathetic even for an ElCheapo Disposable Camera. Perhaps if you took a few more flicks, or took a Class on photography you could get some that actually look better - Pitiful! | |||
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Yup, this is true....however to say that he was/is a frequent flier.....(his last post is number 51) is somewhat errant....his last post was a couple months ago on the reloading forum. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Bobby, I intended to say something regarding your health in a previous post but failed to. It should go without saying that I wish you a speedy recovery with whatever it is that ails you and prayers go out to you and the medical staff who working on your behalf toward a full recovery. | |||
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Hotsh#t, You Ole Butt Shooter Now I am starting to get the impression that you are avoiding answering me!!!!!! It's not hard to visit the Berger site mentioned above unless you are afraid that you will have to admit again, that you are wrong. Seems like lately you've been wrong 99% of the time and everyone here on the board is just trying to be helpful to you and help you along the road to recovery. If fact I bet that if I asked again (3rd time) for a donation for your meds that maybe this time the funds would flow in. I'm starting to think that you are hoping that I won't ask you again, right??????? I know that you must be busy but I'm sure the 2 minutes on the Berger site will be just like a little vacation for you. I know you can do it!!! Wow!!!!!!!!!, After reading the comments on this thread it seems like you have a whole bunch of former friends that think you are a stinker. But you still have some friends, I'm sure. Let's count them............................................................................................................ well I couldn't find any!!!! Hoping for best for you. | |||
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God are you a jackoff... El Stupido.. I got a broken firearm back. I sent it to a gun smith immediately and told said buyer that from the start.. What is the normal turn around at a gunsmith? 3 to 4 months is not that unusual... and I got it back exactly when I was told when I dropped it off to be repaired. I didn't get "Shamed" into anything. I did what I told the buyer I'd do before I even received the firearm back. But then you weren't involved in the transaction... however as always that doesn't prevent or stop you from being an expert on another subject here on AR..... you know Hot Bore... you slandering certain people on here all the time doesn't really bother anyone... because the fact is, your slander is predictable.. right down to exactly what you are going to say about them... so stand on your soapbox and huff & puff all you want to.... the list of people who actually give a shit on what you have to say, ( regardless of topic) is pretty close to Zero... Well MAYBE YOU are interested in what you have to say on any given subject.. but beyond that, the list is pretty bare... But you keep being a legend in your own mind... It is pretty entertaining to the Rest of us.. You are sort of the Beavis ( or Butthead) of the firearm forum here... huhuhhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuh  | |||
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It really is strange to see how a thread starts and what it evolves into. I've used some Bergers in a .243 wssm hunting gun trying to shoot some target matches. I did have some problems because of the shape of the bullet. I was limited to magazine length for the OAL. The other problem is that you really have to have a target rifle to use them to wring out the advantages. The bullets are longer than others and take a faster twist barrel than what hunting guns generally have. I believe for 1/2moa's rifle, the bullets would work out well for the paper game. I would never use these bullets in any of my rifles for anything considered "big game". Yes, I've been to the site and yes, I love to watch "Best of the West" hunting shows. The performance of the bullets on game is impressive on film. I would never use these bullets for the reason that all of my hunting rifles are high velocity cartridges. You never know at what distance you may get a shot at your quarry, and for this reason, a good bonded bullet gives you confidence of successful kills. I use the 52 gr Match King in my .223 for prarie dogs and coyotes and love them. Perfect for saving coyote hides. Small entry then a complete disintegration with no exit. Bobby's testing is great and without having done it myself would have to believe that the Bergers would best be suited to the slower impact velocities as he as shown. It's common sense. But as we have seen here before, (.223 Rem on big game thread) not very common to everybody. The bullets probably work great on big game at 500 to 1000 yards where the lower velocity helps them stay together. They probably perform like my 52 gr Match King. I had a 180 Accubond fail on a close distance shot on a mule deer. If that is what high velocity impact does to a bonded bullet, the use of the Berger in the same situation would be out of the question for me. | |||
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Thanks! | |||
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When one's father has served three tours of duty in WWII by the age of 12, one needs to gain credibility before posting..... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Got the new 2010 Midsouth Shoopers Supply catalog yesterday. On page 109 is a very extensive listing of Berger Bullets. All kinds between 20gr 17cal and 210gr 30cal. And the prices do not seem out of reason. Interesting to note that each and every Bullet listed contains the word "Match". Not a single reference to any change in the Design to make them a Hunting Grade Bullet. I've yet to see any reason to believe the "enter a very short distance and then totally fragment" has changed. People thinking that is a Hunting Grade Bullet sure have a lot to learn. Darn shame it has to be at the expense of the Game. | |||
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1/2moa, Where are you shooting F-Class in Mississippi? It has been a few years since I have been, but there was a range in Pascagoula and another near McComb called Burns I believe. | |||
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Hot Core wrote: "Interesting to note that each and every Bullet listed contains the word "Match". Not a single reference to any change in the Design to make them a Hunting Grade Bullet." ---- For the darling of the hunting world, the undisputed killer of killers, the king of illegally shooting animals from the hood of a moving vehicle and the only member here who has killed "many thousands" of deer without a shred of evidence of even a single shot ever being fired...here's what you were incapable of finding:  The Hunting bullet line is proving to be the most lethal big game hunting bullets available. All of our Hunting bullets are made in the VLD design. The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate 2” to 3” before it starts to expand. Using the Berger VLD will result in an animal that goes down fast so you can enjoy the results of your hunt without having to track the wounded animal after the shot. You owe it to yourself to see how accurate and deadly the Berger Hunting VLD will be on your next hunt. To order a free 30 minute video that provides more detail on the bullets, cartridge and velocity used to take several animals at a variety of ranges call 714-447-5456. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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Hotsh#t: Ye ole Buttshooting Berger Bullet Boy AKA Slayer of Thousands. How are y'all doing????? You are a stinker alright and tardy on your visit to the Berger web site. It's a good thing that Bobby Tomek posted a picture for you. If you look at the picture of the nice yellow box just below the words "100 Ct" you will see some more words. Am I going to fast???? Those words say "VLD - HUNTING" and right below that pretty yellow picture is a quote from the web site on how the Bergers are designed for HUNTING. Now wasn't that nice of Bobby to post that picture for you??? Perhaps you could send him a little thank you note, what do y'all think" You still need to visit the web site as they have a movie there for you!!!!!! Wow isn't that grand???? You will even learn a lot more on your visit there and don't forget to tell us all about your fun time at the Berger website. Best of luck to you at Marlin. | |||
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Berger Bullets This might be a better source for information than in the Midsouth catalog. | |||
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Hotsh#t Ye ole rascal. You butt shooting Berger Bullet boy. Looks like you have some new friends!!!! Tommy and Clifie. How nice!!!!!! | |||
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Thanks, the bullet testing has been interesting and fun. It is amazing how different the results can be by introducing variables. Hardy board is my favorite. I once read it does a good job simulating bone. It will stress a bullet. I have some 140 Grain Berger hunting bullets and 150 grain TSX on order. They should arrive in about two weeks (Bergers on BO). Along with some North Forks I will test them using my 7 mag. American Hunting rifles is building a 7 by 57 for my wife from an old FN Mauser action I furnished. She will hunt in africa with it this year so I need to decide on a good .284 bullet. Let the tests begin. | |||
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BTW this is one of the most bizarre threads on which I have ever posted. Do you guys really hate each other that much or is it meant to be some kind of sick entertainment? | |||
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NAAAAAHHH...they are all old buddies with a bet between them to see who can guess the number of views they can chalk up on a thread.....this one now has close to 1200. They'll give it up when the views hit closer to 2000.....  /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Thread recap A question about twist rates and Berger VLDs A 26 foot long barrel Some Vulgar language A weird reference to another forum An actual answer to the question (that was probably the strangest of all) More vulgar language Dishonored a Mother and Father Dubious claims of military service Switched over to hunting versus target with bergers Two bird flip offs in 1/2MOA's first 40 or so posts Some real hate between a couple of posters An article with actual tests and field results Fervent/rabid disagreement to the article More hate filled posts Info on .375 and 470 testing on a small bore thread (even though a 375 is really kind of a small bore) Reference to thread from the Classifieds More hate filled post More hunting references Where can you shoot F-Class in Mississippi? Do Berger Hunting bullets really exist? An announcement of more testing And finally a vain attempt at some humor. Lighten up guys, this is suppose to be fun!!!! | |||
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We shoot a little north in east Memphis! And as far as WWII!!! It was claimed to be over in 45!!!! But as we all know it wasnt! Dad left in 49, and wasnt back till 54! and 55 till 61! And vapomut, Ive yet to see your post, for your experience with VLDs! And this is my Damn thread, I dont need to gain credibility for crap! And Mike, vapodmut and hothole are buddies, that pick out something that has nothing to do with the thread! And like two old ass women, start a bunch of drama! And ill look for the name of that range we shot @ sat when im home, and let you know! its a 600yard! | |||
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/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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1/2 MOA---Your credibility is zero--really not worth responding to. The war ended in 1945---but your 16 year old dad entered it in 1949. As was pointed out to you a 77 yr old was born in 1933---thus 16 in 1949. When you are in a hole--stop digging. You are in a big hole. I'll give you an out. I was in Guam from 1980 until 1982. During that time they found a Japanese soldier hiding in the woods and he had been doing so since ww2 and didnt know the war was over. Maybe your dad was hiding out somewhere and didnt get the word. His son seems to suffer from that. | |||
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Hey Cliff, Thanks for the link. Do you think there is any chance there could be some Marketeering tossed in the descriptions? By the way, if you do decide to Hunt with one of these, I hope you get the results you want. | |||
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From the data (and photos) presented in this thread, I have to agree with Hot Core.....The Berger bullets are not hunting bullets. Marketing????......yup...something like that! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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The term, "hunting bullets" is totally subjective. Just as "deer rifle" may subjectively mean a .223 Remington to some. I would have to say that just about any bullet will work no matter how frangible if the impact velocity is correct for the construction. I'm sure you've seen the online table called "the best hunting bullet" that shows all brands of bullets and their condition after impact at various velocities. The notoriously more frangible bullets at lower impact velocities hold together like a premium. That's why they use Bergers on the Best of the West long range hunting show. They want long range shots. The impact velocity of the bullet has slowed to the point to where the bullet works with dramatic results. I would bet a 50 yard shot with the 7 mag with a Berger may be different and is more of a possibility to the average hunter than the 500 yard shot. I think the marketing is a disservice to the average hunter and the game he intends to take. The result may be a deer blown in half, catapulting through the air like a prarie dog shot with a 22-250 or more likely, total bullet failure.  | |||
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 In this photo the subjectivity is quite standoutish. Personally, it's not at all subjective to me friend!  /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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