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The effectiveness of .22 Centerfires on deer is, understandably, often a controversial topic. But experience is telling me that it kills about as fast and as well as most larger calibers. Years ago, I took a lightweight .223 bolt rifle and fitted it with a cut-down stock for a young shooter. Both of my grandsons used it for their first (and several subsequent) deer, and I loaned it to a good friend who let one of his grandsons use it for his first deer. All of these deer taken were one-shot kills. They were also within reasonably close range, say 70 yards or less. This weekend a friend borrowed it for his two grandsons, ages 11 and 10. The 11 year-old was first up and took this good-sized mature West Texas whitetail buck with a single shot at 200 yards -- DRT.  The next morning his little brother, using the same gun, went to the same stand and shot another mature buck -- a single shot, again at 200 yards, and the buck dropped in its tracks.  In addition, I've taken a few of whitetails with a .22 Centerfire when that was what I happened to have, and all have been one-shot kills. I can't say that about every deer I've taken with a larger caliber. I'm not arguing that the .223 is "better" for deer than larger calibers, just that it works about as well. Deer are wounded and lost due to poor shots, not small calibers. By the way, isn't it curious that both of these 8-pointers had the same G-1 on the LH antler broomed off? | ||
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Those boys are darn fine shots too! | |||
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I have seen several Impala shot with .22 Hornet, and taken a couple myself. However, these were all neck shots, and all were sub-100yard shots. All were 1-shot kills and one shot even blew virtually the whole neck out. The head remained attached to the body by just two strips of skin. On the other hand, our neighbor once took 13 shots to bring down an Impala ewe with her .223. The lady was a good shot, but admits that her first shot missed the heart. Several of her follow-up shots did penetrate the heart though. This was confirmed during skinning, for which I was present. One factor that may have played a role was that the ewe was pregnant. So while I agree completely that it's the quality of the shot that counts rather than the caliber, a larger wound channel probably gives a better outcome on a slightly iffy shot. Note, it's not necessarily the caliber. I think I lost a couple of Impala shot with .44-40's due to simply not being able to find any evidence. Stumbled on the last one by mistake. Dead from a good shot, but it had made it a couple of hundred yards and absolutely no blood spoor. So while I don't hunt with the .44-40 with lead bullets anymore, I would hunt with the .22 Hornet again. | |||
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The little 45 grain Hornet bullet at 2600 fps carries only about half the energy of a 55 grain soft point at 3250 fps from a .223. I know several people who use the Hornet for head shots culling deer (at fairly close range). But, as illustrated, the much more powerful .223 (or similar .22 Centerfires) can reliably take deer at much greater yardages and with shots to the thorax and not just shots to the CNS. | |||
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Stonecreek your experience pretty much matches mine. Give the kid a .222 or .223 plain old 55 grain cup and core bullet and you better have a sharp knife ready--you'll need it. Those that tell you heavy for caliber or premium bullet have vast experience doing it on their keyboard but not in real life. | |||
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I use heavy for caliber/premium bullets quite a bit. While my deer kill numbers might not be as impressive as yours, I think I’ve probably qualified as experienced. More so if you include none deer species. I like the heavy for caliber/larger bullets on deer for one big reason- exit wounds. You have a much better blood trail and a much higher likelihood of finding your deer. Not saying a .223 isn’t capable of killing cleanly in some circumstances, but not everyone can set up their opportunities on a feeder, and if time/opportunities/targeting a certain animal are part of it, a cup and core .223 is not optimal. Culling? Sure, a hornet or .223 cup and core works well- you take good head and neck shots, and if you don’t have the shot, you know another will come along. They are overpopulated and that is why you do it. Contrast that to a 250# northern whitetail buck that you only have a hard quartering shot at. I can’t see folks recommending a .223 with a 55g cup and core for that… sure, you get a standing broadside shot, the .223 will kill it, but you either better have tracking snow or see it drop to find it up here. Use a .30-06 with a 180 grain premium bullet, and I’m sure I’ve got that deer if it’s in range, and that the blood trail will let me find him. Does a .223 work for some? Sure. But I would not call it optimal… then again, I don’t call anything universally optimal. I don’t consider the .223 even adequate as a deer round for me and my purposes, as it would be limiting; not that I couldn’t kill a deer with it. | |||
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Unlike a heavy caliber with a tough bullet, a "better blood trail" has never been needed with any of the numerous .223 kills I've experienced. If you could see it where it was standing, then you can also see where it fell in its tracks. But then, following a blood trail for several hundred yards can be quite an entertaining sport, a facet of the hunt that is typically missing when using a .223. | |||
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Stonecreek--That too has been my experience, you can see where it fell--no blood trail needed. In Coke county where I hunt it is a reddish sandy soil and blood seems to evaporate anyways--only trail is on vegetation. crbutler--I take a youth hunting and if the presentation is not right, no shot taken and the deer walks. In some counties in Texas a 13" inside spread is required. That requires getting a view where you can judge his antlers in comparison to his ears. I 100% agree the 30-06 is great and personally I use 150 grain bullets. I've seen a 30-06 heart shot deer travel further than any .22 cal shot deer--go figure. BTW you mention having experience and almost ALL others that say premium and heavy actually have no experience. | |||
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Where I hunt there are two water tanks and lack of rain they have dried up. There is a windmill on the place and a water trough, but the windmill is not working. Went out this past week-end--took a great nephew and we didn't see any deer and almost no tracks. Had also planned on twin great grandsons to get a deer but it looks like that won't happen. | |||
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If so, I doubt you do that much hunting. I’ve seen animals do strange things regularly. If every deer you have ever seen shot with a .223 drops to the shot, either you haven’t seen many shot or you are the luckiest man alive. Most I would buy. All? Nope. No such thing as absolutes with biologic systems.
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crbutler a .222 shot doe made a maybe 100 yard death run and that was the longest. | |||
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I’d buy that… but you weren’t the one claiming never had anything but drop to the shot, either. If you can turn down a suboptimal presentation, then the .223 is fine. My deer season is 8 days long and I usually can hunt for 4 days of it. If I don’t shoot the one chance, I’m not likely to get a second. | |||
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crbutler--our season is much longer and the weather pretty much allows to hunt everyday. Regardless, if the shot is not right I don't allow the youngster to shoot. | |||
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Missing from this discussion is the geography. The photos of the young guys and their fine bucks are wonderful. Helping them get started is wonderful. you probably dont get enough credit for that. Whats in the photos is interesting. We see that the young hunters arent wearing orange [like the requirement here in Minnesota. And the deer have access to feeders. The location is flat and wide open. A deer seriously wounded can run 300 yards and still 'die within sight'. There is no doubt that the 223 works well in those circumstances. Maybe not in some other places. Items to consider in this discussion: the average deer in the southern states are smaller in stature and profile..[when viewed from the front] My experiences hunting in 2 parts of Arkansas and in NE Minnesota and east central Minnesota help me to compare. IMHO the larger northern deer are a little tougher to kill. There fore the comments by us northern guys about wanting use a larger caliber. Hunting in the NE Minn. and EC Minn brush has taught us the value of a good blood trail.... regardless of caliber. Shot a large doe with a hot handloaded 270. Partition bullet. Tore up both lungs. the critter fell about 60 feet--straight line distance.... from where the bullet ripped on thru. But the deer ran a curved irregular path thru the brush. not much of a blood trail at first. Took me 10 minutes to find the downed deer. Couldnt see the deer from even 30 feet away. our hunting crew has on several occasions had to track wounded deer long way thru thru thick brush. Hard to do and takes time. A few inches of fresh snow makes a huge difference. We found them all, except 2. Both shot at close range. One with a 30-06[huge buck... largest whitetail tracks i ever saw ] and a buck... with a 300 Savage. [rain washed away the faint blood trail. The buck was found a few days later on another property and we identified it by the Hornaday bullet in it. ] I dont think a smaller lighter bullet is the answer where we hunt. [ the 223 is now legal in Minnesota for deer] The 223 is not very popular here. Use what works where you hunt. And keep taking those young guys hunting. | |||
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My family and I have culled many whitetail and mule deer with a 222 caliber, a 60 gr.bullet at 2800 to 2900 fps is deadly at up to 200 or so yards. The down side is blood trails are not very good if at all, so open country is best..Other good options are the 30-30 and 25-35 win for the younger bunch..both leave heavy blood trails. BTW nothing is better than a good cow dog that tracks. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Another thing I noticed in the photos was the barrel of the rifle is pointing at the kids. The bolt is closed. Not sure if rifle is loaded. In NZ that is a No No no. IMHO, that is not safe practice for kids using firearms. Great photo of making memories with family & friends. God bless and be safe.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Back in my younger days, almost 45 years ago, I hunted deer with a Mohawk 660 in 222 REM and most went less than 50 yards, some way less. Of course, here in Georgia almost all shots were much less than 100 yards. Was using factory ammo, but don’t remember which load. Also, most of our deer aren’t real big. Shoot Safe, Mike NRA Endowment Member | |||
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Absolutely NOT!!! A terrible idea, and illegal everywhere I ever hunted. Sure, it can be done when everything is perfect; I have killed many 800 steers with a 22 LR too, but that ain't hunting. And neither is culling. Just a gimmick, it is a recipe for disaster, wounded animals, and getting arrested by the game warden for good reason. Get a real rifle. | |||
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You have to pick your shot and in Texas that is from a blind to a 100 yard feeder..In Idaho its not from a blind and its regular hunting and the 223, 222,22-250 and 220 Swift all seem to work as well as anything else if you can shoot! Ive never seen a deer run past 50 yards with those calibers and a proper bullet and Ive seen a bunch of instant kills,probably 95% plus..Ive seen more long runs with big bores and hard bullets btw. You can get more blood on the ground as a rule with large calibers, but no guarantee for ever time. What I don't like is that high velocity is meat damage galore, everything is blood shot.. Good shot placement is a must with any caliber and proper bullet construction is a must otherwise it's a crapshoot any way you cut it. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I’ve shot 6 or 7 deer w/ a 22/250 and 55gr, and one large doe with a 22 Grendel and 50gr TTSX…. They all worked but certainly no blood trails (none were needed) and generally no exit. I prefer something larger and for my kids I built a 250 Savage, and then several Howa Mini’s in 22 Grendel, 6mm Grendel and 6.5 Grendel. For the 6.5 Grendel I parted off 120gr Etip bullets to 87 gr (just what looked good for length) and loaded them to 2900fps. That’s one killin’ SOB and recoil is incredibly mild…. My son harvested his first deer last year with it at 7 years old and it worked splendidly. Shoot straight, shoot often. Matt | |||
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I have shot deer with every thing from 22LR to 458 dia. In the proper situation most anything will work. But if one is truly hunting not sitting over a bait pile or feeder. One might not have the time to make the "perfect" shot. Driving a bullet at odd angles through/into the vitals is very common. In heavy cover a good blood trail is a great aid. | |||
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When using any caliber, one must use the discipline required of the caliber, even a 458 as well as a 22LR..Hopefully I don't have to justify that to some numbskull.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Elmer Keith when pointing out the advantages of using big bore calibers said "you can eat right up to the bullet hole" Craftsman | |||
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Good advise!!! Save the pip squeeks for the shootin' gallery at the county fair! Hip | |||
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Because of health issues I was only able to hunt about 6 hours during Wis. firearm season. 3 deer were driven out to me on drives. All 3 were shot on a dead run all 3 went down on the shot. Model 99sav 300sav 165gr cor-lok at 2400fps I wouldn't have taken those shots with a 223. After wards I went home back to bed. Some times one has to take what one is given. | |||
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Excellent shooting. Craftsman | |||
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Stonecreek, Ignore the negative. You are experienced and know what you are doing. My grandson will shoot a deer with a .223 using 55gr TSX bullets. We may move up to a .243 and 80gr TSX. The result will be the same. If the military uses .223 to shoot bad guys, surely it will work on deer.... Enough already.... | |||
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Anyone out hunting should be required to shoot well so what caliber he shoots is secondary, If he can't shoot good enough for a 223 or 458 he has no business hunting. It just doesn't always work out that way and therein lies the reason some wound with a 223 and a 458! and BS whats proper and what's not. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I’ve shot a bunch of deer with a Rem 788 in .223 using Barnes bullets, wirks very well. In Texas any center fire is legal and I’ve shot a few with a .17 Remington (Rem Model 7) with 25 grain bullets, fell like struck by lightning. But…these were “hill country” deer, probably 80-90 lbs on the hoof. Karl Evans | |||
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Although I own a 223 hunting style bolt action gun, I don’t think I would want to use it for deer. Most of the small coues deer I took in Arizona were with a 270 or a 30-06. I’ve also used a 25-06 and a 243. The results with all of them were fine, although the ones that dropped in their tracks tended to be hit in the spinal cord in the neck. As is common, heart shot deer tended to run a bit before dropping for good. A few of them dropped on the spot however. Even though this was south eastern Arizona, some areas were brushy enough that a blood trail mattered. If I were looking for a very low recoil round for such hunting now I would take a good look at the 6.5 Grendel. It has hardly more recoil than a 22 center fire and much more bullet weight and diameter. Easily flat enough shooting for 200 to 250 yards. It is also an inherently accurate round. | |||
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I agree with Tom on this one. I have a little 223 that I use for target shooting and Mayabe, JUST MAYBE I might take to shoot a hog. Only reason: head shots are the best recipe for knocking a boar down in its track. That 223 is So accurate it is boring and with the size of a pig's head, the 223 will do the trick. I won't use one on a deer. Unless you hit the vitals with a 223 , you are asking for a problem. Those white tails have a will to live and they can run a VERY LONG way after they get hit. I have literally knocked down deer where they were standing and have watched them get up, fall again, only to get up a second time and run off. I tracked pools of blood the size of cow patties and had it dry up where I lost the animal. Anyone who doubts me - I invite them to come down and hunt in South Texas in the thick shrub and call me a liar. For me, a 223 is not enough medicine on a whitetail. Bigger bullets = better expansion and more penetration = bigger exit hole= more air in = more blood out= better chance of a harvest. | |||
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After I trained several blood trailer dogs. I solved that problem. | |||
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This subject has pretty much been beaten to a bloody pulp, so not much more to say. However, it seems that those who decry the use of .22 Centerfires on deer have no actual experience with same, while those who say it works fine have quite a bit of experience on the subject. We're yet to hear from anyone who has used a .22 Centerfire for deer and found such lacking. Anyone? Anyone? | |||
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+1 might add that most that say must use heavy bullet or premium bullet have keyboard experience with it only. | |||
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Could be because those of us who find them lacking for all around deer hunting don't use them for such. I have shot deer with them I find them lacking in certain situations so I don't use them. | |||
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I don't hunt deer with .22 Centerfires myself, but that's because I have a plethora of other calibers that I preferto use.
So, please describe the instances in which you have used a .22 Centerfire and found it lacking. | |||
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I don't use them in those situation because they are lacking. The situations are Drive hunting, stalking in thick woods. Stand hunting in thick woods. Hunting close to property line. I own 8 or so 22 center fires. I have shot 10's of thousands of rounds through them. I have shot deer with them. I know very well what their capabilities are. When it comes to hard hunting conditions where you might have to take a less then perfect shot. They are lacking.. Use them if you want no sweat off my back. Come hunt in the north deep north woods where you most likely get one chance at a legal deer. That chance might only be running through thick woods. Having to break both shoulders so they don't get away. Then tell me how great the 22 center fires are. A tack hammer will drive a 6 inch spike. A large framing hammer does it better. | |||
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Great post. Agree 100% Can 22 center fires kill deer? Yes under ideal conditions. [LIST] Here in NZ we hunt a lot of fallow for meat on marginal / fringe farm and bush country. The deer are wild and so it is real hunting but the very nature of fallow is to graze in open clearings and they are easy to hunt. It is possible to hunt reds in similar situations but they are less common in open clearings. It would be impossible to hunt sika or whitetail is such environments.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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So you haven't actually used a .22 Centerfire on deer and found it lacking. However, you believe it to be "lacking" in the situations you describe. Fair enough. As I said, I prefer more powerful calibers for most of my deer hunting, also. But in many situations a .22 Centerfire works as well for deer as does a larger caliber. Given the choice between a Sako .223 handloaded with 60 grain Noslers or a Winchester 94 .30-30 I'd bet on the .223 coming home with the meat a larger percentage of the time than the "classic deer rifle". Or do you disagree? | |||
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You didn't do it, you can speculate you wouldn't have lost it. | |||
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