Bullet selection is very critical. However, whatever nosier bullets those were killed that big buck. Then in heavy cover he lost one.
No mas for anyone using the 223 on our lease.

My brother used soft, light, soft point in that Hornet w a lot of less exposed. Yep, it worked on a head shot.

A large part of my antipathy for .22 CF on deer isn’t personal experience with me shooting… it’s personal experience as a landowner with other people’s shooting.

I find a dead deer, I want to know why and I do a pretty thorough exam of the dead animal.

Most numerous is “nothing obvious”

Next is bow and arrow wound.

Third is .22 CF- often with a bullet found.

Finally is other hunting firearms.

Both bow and .22 CF I have found animals that should have died quickly and been recovered.

Part of why I no longer will grant access to folks I don’t personally know well anymore.

I could shoot deer with a 223 but I don't. There is too much chance of a shot being imperfect. Mostly I use a 30/06 with 165 grain bullets. Even imperfectly placed bullets still are inside my acceptable margin of error with the 30/06. They might be outside it with a 223. On the other hand, I use Hornady 75 grain HPBT bullets in a 1/8 twist Ruger bolt gun on Coyotes. It's zeroed at 250 yd because that's the maximum range to the wood line. I just shot a big male at that range today. A heart/lung shot and he dropped right there. Wish I had shot the female that was with him instead.

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Wish I had shot the female that was with him instead.

Correct one would have gotten rid of a lot more then one.

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A large part of my antipathy for .22 CF on deer isn’t personal experience with me shooting… it’s personal experience as a landowner with other people’s shooting .

That's understandable, but as you say, it is their shooting that is mostly at fault. Not so much the caliber.

I have a good friend who has a multi-thousand acre ranch in South Texas where the deer are quite large (especially since he feeds year-around). He won't allow any bow hunting due to having lost trophy bucks wounded by bow hunters. However, he takes well over 200 deer, about an equal number of does and bucks, off of his place every year. Trophy hunter guests (no paid hunting) are required to first shoot their rifles at his range to demonstrate that they are properly sighted. Since those hunters only take a dozen or two deer, he and his ranch personnel shoot about 200 deer a year themselves. Their favorite culling round: .22 Hornet. And remember, this is a guy who can't abide lost animals.

Except Crbutler strongly implied the deer would have been recovered if so wounded w more bullet, cartridge.

Both bow and .22 CF I have found animals that should have died quickly and been recovered.

With the low recoiling options we have available, 6mm, 25s, 6.5 Grendel there is no need to use a 223 or CF .22.

By that I mean lung shot deer that had the thoracic cavity full of blood.

It may be that folks who shoot deer with .22 CF rifles are less knowledgeable or capable.

I can’t tell by postmortem how far the animal did run. I usually find them by looking after smelling them or if I run into them while hunting myself.

The most egregious was a late season bow kill. Spike buck. I followed the hunter’s footsteps in the snow. He walked up to the dead deer, then went back to his stand.

I’m glad I didn’t find the hunter. I’d probably be in jail from it.

He did pull his arrow out.

I have never been a fan of a little whole on one lung, and barley acknowledge 2 little wholes on one lung.

Again, the argument of youth or recoil sensitive does not carry water when we have better cartridges like the 6mms, 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, or the 6.5 Grendel.

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The most egregious was a late season bow kill. Spike buck. I followed the hunter’s footsteps in the snow. He walked up to the dead deer, then went back to his stand.

????
That's not an indictment of the bow as a hunting weapon, much less of a .22 Centerfire. The deer was dead and was found by the hunter. The fact that he left it to rot has nothing to do with the adequacy of his weapon.

A deer that lived and ran farther than it otherwise would have?

I admit I am lukewarm on arrows bc my limited experience is you are going to have to follow what would otherwise be a drop to the shot w a good cartridge.

Bobby t,

Keep in mind that somebody has to test these new bullets on game least we never know, that is what I was doing, and exposed the bullet failure and never used that bullet again..right or wrong I got caught with my pants down, and made a mistake, posted to advise of my mistake and prevent someone else. It has always bothered me to wound an animal.

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Originally posted by Stonecreek:

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The most egregious was a late season bow kill. Spike buck. I followed the hunter’s footsteps in the snow. He walked up to the dead deer, then went back to his stand.

????
That's not an indictment of the bow as a hunting weapon, much less of a .22 Centerfire. The deer was dead and was found by the hunter. The fact that he left it to rot has nothing to do with the adequacy of his weapon.

Its an indictment of the bow because I have a lot more troubles with bowhunters tresspassing. Admittedly, no one in the area has any doubt of my attitude towards letting bowhunters on my land after that episode. I have a good idea who did it, but not court level proof.

I have pretty good experience with how far an animal will run after my North American hunting and overseas.

If you find more lost animals left with small holes in them that were in places that if it had been a more energetic/penetrating would have dropped fairly quickly, what is your conclusion?

For me it is, either the .22 CF tends to not drop things as quickly given equal shot placement or the folks using them tend to be mostly inept... neither of which is great.

Lots of new "hunters" around here with AR 15's. At the range, when you see these tactical timmy's shooting at 10 yards and making a shotgun pattern on a "zombie" target it doesn't give you any great feeling of trust in their ability.


Seeing a guy trying to hunt deer with a chinese red dot sight on a SBR or pistol braced handgun in .223 doesn't make me thing they belong in the hunting woods, either.

If you shoot a deer, walk up to it, retrieve your arrow, and let it lay there is something wrong with you.

You can call it guilt by association, but my land, my rules.

I was elk hunting a ranch in Montana.

I found a big bull dead just across the fence be 10 feet of the ranch I was hunting.

Great blood trail I could see it coming to the fence.

The bull was to bloated to be salvable.

Talked to the owner of the ranch.

Seems he and the other rancher were feuding.

They told each other in no uncertain terms. That they could not cross the boundaries. To retrieve animals.

A great animal wasted because of bad feelings.

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Originally posted by Atkinson:
Bobby t,

Keep in mind that somebody has to test these new bullets on game least we never know, that is what I was doing, and exposed the bullet failure

The bullet did not fail. It did exactly what it was designed to do. And you could have tested it in any of a variety of medium. Back then, newsprint was virtually free and widely abundant. While nothing fully replicates impact on game, you can get a pretty decent idea of terminal performance. Not only that, the manufacturer -- from day one -- clearly labeled that bullet as being intended for varmints.

Putting that bullet through the thin ribcage and into the lungs would have likely resulted in a quick kill. But trying to put a lightweight, frangible (at those speeds) varmint bullet through a shoulder...well...

the Bullbery (25-30-30) and 85 gr Barnes X tipped, is interesting. Its also known as the 25-35, a caliber Ive hunted with since my youth and still do.I have tried the 85 gr bullets but the twist in my 94 is wrong so I've always used the 117 gr. Hornady or factory ammo 117 gr WW and Rem bullets which took care of many Coues, whitetail, 6 elk, and Mule deer. Found it kills as well as my 30-30 and leaves a good blood trail, a 200 yard rifle on big game. Id like to build a 25-35 twisted properly for the 85 gr TX..I have a world of brass and loaded ammo and facory stuff.

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Originally posted by Atkinson:
the Bullbery (25-30-30) and 85 gr Barnes X tipped, is interesting. Its also known as the 25-35, a caliber Ive hunted with since my youth and still do.I have tried the 85 gr bullets but the twist in my 94 is wrong so I've always used the 117 gr. Hornady or factory ammo 117 gr WW and Rem bullets which took care of many Coues, whitetail, 6 elk, and Mule deer. Found it kills as well as my 30-30 and leaves a good blood trail, a 200 yard rifle on big game. Id like to build a 25-35 twisted properly for the 85 gr TX..I have a world of brass and loaded ammo and facory stuff.

Actually, the 25-35 and 25x30-30 (25 Bullberry) are not the same and not interchangeable. You can fit a 25-35 into a 25x30-30 chamber but NOT vice versa. But you can indeed form 25-35 brass from 30-30, something I've done quite a bit of.

The Barnes TTSX bullet is actually 80 grains, and at 2900-3000 fps MV, it opens very well out to 200 yards. I once took a two-'fer on medium-sized sows with it using a 23" 25-35. It completely penetrated both.

The 85 grain and 100 grain Ballistic Tips also did very well for me in that 23" Contender barrel. In my 25 Bullberry, the 87 grain Speer Hot Core spitzer did a beautiful job on a nice buck back in November and is another candidate for single shots in 25-35. But the 100 grain Hot Core isn't a bad choice, either.

These old cartridges are oft-overlooked but will do anything within reason that we ask of them. Last night, I used a 6.5 Bullberry (6.5x30-30) to take nice sow, and bullet performance from the 100 grain Nosler BT was exceptional. For years, I had used heavier 6.5 bullets in various cartridges based on the 30-30 and .225 cases, but I can't fault what the 100 grain BT has been doing. It's a pleasure to shoot it and doesn't precipitate a flare-up from my RA or neuropathy.

Last night:





The hog only went 20-22 yards after impact, so a blood trail was not needed. But if it was, everything was painted red and would have been simple to follow.

One more thought: for a light-recoiling rifle, a 30-30 loaded with the Barnes 110 or 120 grain TAC-TX bullets is nearly perfect. These two bullets will open up to .60" while retaining virtually all of their weight. I've taken dozens of hogs with these two bullets, and 300 yards is not a problem.

These bullets were designed for .300 BO speeds are are simply wicked at the higher velocities of a 30-30 rifle. And even the largest of hogs are no match for their performance: