quote:

When it comes to hard hunting conditions where you might have to take a less then perfect shot. They are lacking..

But a magnum will drop them in their tracks even with a poorly placed shot?

Despite my strong backing for .22 centerfires on deer, I use my .243. This is not a contradiction as it's been a few years since I shot a deer but I have taken several youth for their deer. Recent diagnoses of lung cancer my hunting days are probably over. It is not a concern to me that others don't use .22 cal on deer, I do speak up when a post is made that contradicts my experience with it.

I know this from experience.

The very definition of knowledge is our ability to discern information from experience and apply logic. We learn from observation and scientific principles.

That fallow was hit by a 60gr VMax angling down into the thematic area between the two shoulders. The reaction to the shot was a typical hard hit deer that wobbles and staggers away.

Sam followed up with 2 dogs in very thick bush but could not get a shot. This went on for 10 minutes. Suddenly the deer broke cover and ran.
With the 7mm08, the damage would have been far greater and the animal would not recover.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:

quote:

I've lost a fallow deer at 120 meters shot with my 223 Rem . I am sure i would not have lost that animal in an open clearing if I was using my 7mm08

You didn't do it, you can speculate you wouldn't have lost it.

quote:

So you haven't actually used a .22 Centerfire on deer and found it lacking. However, you believe it to be "lacking" in the situations you describe.

I have always said one can kill deer with 22 centers fires.

Big deal one can kill them with 22rf.

Does it make it the best choice. Not by far.

Some of us know what the limit limitations are with out having to test them.

If you decide to handy cap your self in those situations. Go for it.

S00000 now were told its ok to take a bad shot if you have a big bore, Two things bother me with hunters, One is a big bore kills ever time with any shot placement and big bores always leaves a blood trail, both are wrong..The other is the more X,s in a scope make up for poor shooting.

Lets bitch about hunter with 223 and give the archer and pistol shooter a walk! How bout to each his own!! God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy!

My perfect deer hunt is a good saddle horse and either my 25-35 Mod 94 SRC or Savage 99F 250-3000 in q saddle scabbard for Whitetail, Coues, or Mule deer. For culling allotted deer a 222 suits me fine

There is an old saying----"Use the best tool for the job!"

----------------NOT-------------

Any tool that MAY work!!!

Hip

How many .223 hunters if offered an once in a lifetime hunt for a record book Buck would still choose the .223 for the hunt?

This thread seems to have lost its focus.

Nobody claimed that the 222Rem or the 223Rem was an ideal deer cartridge. Nobody claimed that they prefer it when targeting trophy bucks.

Many people have shots lots of deer with these calibers. Most seem to harvest meat animals.

Some totally disapprove of using these cartridges on deer. They probably have not tried it.

Bullet selection and shot selection are the key.

I lost a fallow deer at 140 meters last December. 60 gr Vmax did not penetrate into the chest when fired down between the shoulders.

Haven't tried suicide either but for now I think I will pass on it!!!

Hip

I have one requirement on caliber for deer. the gun must be loaded, and I have the ability to judge the situation before I take the shot and so far its worked with the 222 Rem etc. and a 60 gr Hornady HP or SP. and other calibers. Culling mostly.

I agree there are circumstances wherein I would not use a light caliber or a muzzle loader, shotgun, bow, or pistol!! Common since is your best load.

In northwest Pennsylania, the 22 Hornet was used by some for deer as well as groundhogs when it was first introduced.

OK HERE GOES, Dad leased a 30,000 plus acre ranch in Mexico and paid the lease by fenceing the place. We had a crew of 20 to 30 locals and had to feed them. The ranch was crawling with deer, to be used to feed the crew and the local Forestales, who we kept in meat and suger. My job at 10 or 15 years old was to shoot 5 or 6 deer ever morning with Juan Sotol. He used a 22 single shot and I a win mod 63 auto..We rode out horse back and the deer seldom if ever hunted in that area were tame as sheep, we shot from the horses or mules..two shots in the lungs and ride off not going for the deer, made a mile two circle shooting five or 6 deer, then gutted the deer starting with the first one shot until finished, then rode to camp and got the crew to come and get the deer by wagon or pack animals, take two to the Feds and the rest too camp..Juan taught me the secret of taking one or two shots and riding off, the deer laid down and died, If you approached, they would run and be hard to find, according to him and I would not doubt his skill, he was probably 70 or 80 and been feeding the local village for years..with a single shot 22. We didnt lose a single deer that summer..
I wish every kid could be raised like that, I was blessed with a hard life and loved it..

Wifezilla and two of the daughters have taken, 3 whitetail bucks and two does in the last two years using AR-15s chambered in 223. They use the 64 grain Winchester factory deer load.

Four, one shot kills where the deer traveled less than 50 yards. Wifezilla's big bodied, 10-point made about 400 yards with two lung shots.

We can wait for perfect shots under 200 yards but I still don't like it. I bought Wifezilla a 6mm ARC upper and I'm working up loads for her using 95 grain bullets.

I have used 22 caliber rifles for years. In central texas and west Texas. I was raised to shoot them in the neck. I’ve used 55 grain ballistic tips and they don’t exit. They transfer all energy to the spine and the deer drop. I’ve also used the 60 grain partitions for chest shots. Would I use it on a driven hunt? No. Would I choose it on a world record hunt in my area? Yes, it is my most accurate rifle and I am very comfortable with it. Now, if we are moving further north and expecting bigger bodied deer, I would go up to a larger caliber and shoot for the chest.

I have a pic of my Grandmother's last deer. She shot it about 100 yards away with an open sighted Savage 340 in .222. Neck shot, bang flop. Nice Montana mule deer doe. After the shot she looked over and told me she doesn't see as well as she used to; she was 84 and passed away before the next hunting season.

Now she had hunted and been around animals her entire life. She could step out her back door and start hunting, so she could pick her shot or pass until tomorrow.

Not my choice of rifle caliber, but it worked very well for her. Edit: I was using a 30-06 with 4X scope; it didn't work any better than her rifle.

.223 work for me today. All copper expanding bullet. I aimed for the exit hole.
75 yard shot through the shoulder, took out the top of the heart and exited out the ribs.
Went 50 ft and fell over just as I was going to put #2 into him. Big bodied fork hanging in the cooler.

Over this side of the puddle we can use 22 centrefires on small deer. In the UK that’s Roe deer in Scotland and muntjac and chinese water deer in England. The law in Scotland stipulates a min 50gn bullet, 2450fps muzzle velocity and 1,000 ft lbs of muzzle energy for use on Roe, for bigger deer its 80gn, 2450fps and 1750 ft lbs.

In practice this means 222 is a minimum. 222 and 223 both popular and have shot several Roe with my 223 and 51gn Peregrine VLR4 all copper bullet. Everything has dropped on the spot. Given the bullet performance it would work on Fallow and even red deer. However, not legal, but equally there are better cartridges for those bigger deer.

I wonder if the 6.5x54MS is legal for fallow and red deer in the UK

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I wonder if the 6.5x54MS is legal for fallow and red deer in the UK

It very much depends on the load you use. The original 156gn loading - no - that’s why large numbers were traded in against new 270 win.

However if you load a 140gn bullet at c 2650 fps the yes it is legal.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

I have shot deer with them

I don't hunt deer with .22 Centerfires myself, but that's because I have a plethora of other calibers that I preferto use.

quote:

I find them lacking in certain situations so I don't use them.

So, please describe the instances in which you have used a .22 Centerfire and found it lacking.

I don't use them in those situation because they are lacking.

The situations are Drive hunting, stalking in thick woods. Stand hunting in thick woods. Hunting close to property line.

I own 8 or so 22 center fires. I have shot 10's of thousands of rounds through them. I have shot deer with them.

I know very well what their capabilities are.

When it comes to hard hunting conditions where you might have to take a less then perfect shot. They are lacking..

Use them if you want no sweat off my back. Come hunt in the north deep north woods where you most likely get one chance at a legal deer.

That chance might only be running through thick woods. Having to break both shoulders so they don't get away.

Then tell me how great the 22 center fires are.

A tack hammer will drive a 6 inch spike. A large framing hammer does it better.

I would not take a shot on a running deer as my first shot no matter the rifle. Even a 50 bmg is not going to help me in that situation. A load of buckshot, maybe, but your situation is different. I choose to wait on a deer to stand still and present a shot I know I can make.

quote:

I would not take a shot on a running deer as my first shot no matter the rifle

Sounds like a personal problem.

Being able to shoot running game is a matter of practice.

Rabbit hunting is a good place to start. Rabbit hunting with a 22rf is great practice.

Jack O'Conner wrote about burning thousands of rounds on jack rabbits.

Rabbit hunting with hounds is great fun and interesting when using a 22RF.

Also great practice.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I know this from experience.

The very definition of knowledge is our ability to discern information from experience and apply logic. We learn from observation and scientific principles.

That fallow was hit by a 60gr VMax angling down into the thematic area between the two shoulders. The reaction to the shot was a typical hard hit deer that wobbles and staggers away.

Sam followed up with 2 dogs in very thick bush but could not get a shot. This went on for 10 minutes. Suddenly the deer broke cover and ran.
With the 7mm08, the damage would have been far greater and the animal would not recover.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:

quote:

I've lost a fallow deer at 120 meters shot with my 223 Rem . I am sure i would not have lost that animal in an open clearing if I was using my 7mm08

You didn't do it, you can speculate you wouldn't have lost it.

The Hornady VMax is a varmint bullet that is designed to fragment and not penetrate. I think the loss of the animal was more from using the wrong bullet, not the wrong caliber.

Two of my daughters use the 64 grain SP Winchester deer load in their 223s which has a much tougher bullet designed to work on medium game.

Given the availability of good bullets, there is no reason not to use the .223. I am loading the 55 grain TTSX at 3294 fps MV from a 24" Contender barrel. It is surgically accurate, and yes, I've put it through the shoulders of hogs. And I've yet to recover one from game (The bullet in the two photos was taken from test medium at 175 yards and had opened to .489".)

Out to 175 yards, I'd have no qualms about pulling the trigger on the biggest hog or buck out there. Under good conditions, I'd even consider 200.

But if you go around sticking frangible varmint bullets into shoulders, you are only asking for trouble and have no right to blame the cartridge for user error.

The TSX is my bullet in a .223 for deer.

I tried to break both shoulders on a large buck to see if the 60 gr Seirra would work, it exploded on the shoulder and the deer escaped to be found some days later..I should have known better but was very young and foolish. Stay off the shoulders even with the early Ballistic tips and a 30-06, that blew up on a shoulder shot, instant kill but the lungs looked like they had been shot with a shotgun and #9 shot. the on side should looked like a plate of hamburger bout 6 inches of non penetrated hash..

Regardless of what you shoot its not the caliber that fails, its poor judgement and lack of knowledge or judgement.Thats the bottom line!

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
The TSX is my bullet in a .223 for deer.

That is what I used. Worked very well.

The .223 and 55 grain TTSX worked beautifully Thanksgiving morning.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:

quote:

When it comes to hard hunting conditions where you might have to take a less then perfect shot. They are lacking..

But a magnum will drop them in their tracks even with a poorly placed shot?

I’m an old goat I never take less than a perfect shot…
Upstate ny skaneateles lake bear swamp
We grow hops and vegetables.
The deer are a very big problem in the veggies.
Sit in ;a row and wait..,, I’ve shot several that would look at you like wtf.
Cancer,arthritis, heart and lung disease has me just laying on the bench with a 10 pound rifle.
I know my limitations gentleman

"A magnum will drop them every time??

Bad post and full of prunes, it won't..

You will have more penetration and a larger area of tissue destruction with the big magnum. You still have to put either in the right spot.

A monometal .22 CF round should have adequate soft tissue penetration.

I personally think it’s a bit light on tissue disruption and bone can throw a Murphy in the works.

I think there are better options than the .223, but it obviously can do the job if the shooter does theirs.

One of my observations is that a lot of hunters have a pretty odd idea about cervid anatomy though. If you don’t know the anatomy, you are likely to put the bullet where it shouldn’t go.

quote:

"A magnum will drop them every time??

LOL one must not have shot many deer.

I have shot them with every thing from 22LR to 458DGRs.

I seen them drop from a 22RF to run a 100 yards when shot with a DGR.

spot on P-dog,

Probably a good idea to learm to shoot off hand and at running targets before one hunts, if they cant kill a deer running at a 100 yards they need help.

Grew up hunting horse back on a huge desert ranch with Win 30-30 or 2535. Jump a big muley out of a header, or a Coues from a bush, step off and take a Texas heart shot on a fast departing deer, if you waited for them to stop and turn broadside it would be about 5 miles and still running shot!!

Its apparent some here have only hunted soft country and bushwacked an unsuspecting poor deer with a 12X scope at 75 yards from a blind!!

Book a horse back hunt or foot hunt in the Texas Big Bend area by the Rio grande in the rimrock country, then tell me you only take broad side and standing shots on deer.

Thats the rest of the story,

I have a bolt 223 and several ARs as well .

I have shot quite a few hogs with them. Almost all head shots .

I have shot a single deer with a 223. I was forced into it as I picked up the wrong deer rifle . I brought a 243 for which I had no ammo at the camp . I thought I brought my 270. Wrong . My only option was to take an AR which was under the back seat .


I go to the stand . A massive 10 point shows up at the base of the stand . I shoot him. I could see the bullet hit in the right place
. Long story short, I never found him. The bullet broke up upon impact . I do not recall what bullet I was using .


Can it be done ? Sure. Is it what I would personally use? Only if forced to .

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I tried to break both shoulders on a large buck to see if the 60 gr Seirra would work, it exploded on the shoulder and the deer escaped to be found some days later.

It's important across the board with all cartridges, but picking the appropriate projectile for the game and the velocity window is absolutely critical with the smaller rounds. As an example from earlier this season, I took a beautiful whitetail buck with a 25 Bullberry (basically a 25x30-30). The bullet was the Speer 87 grain Hot Core at 2900 fps. I thoroughly tested it for expansion and weight retention and thus felt confident putting the bullet through the onside shoulder of the slightly-quartering presentation, and it did not disappoint. The bullet entered the frontal side of the shoulder where it absolutely chewed the bone, severed a rib entering the chest cavity, smashed through the heart and damaged the lungs. The bullet then cracked a rib on the opposite side before skidding along the ribcage for about four more inches before coming to rest, where the sharp edge of the jacket was slightly imbedded into bone.

But had I gone with a different 87 grain bullet, the results with that same shot would likely not have been so good. Far too many animals are left to suffer and/or be wasted simply because the "hunter" chose to sling lead without any consideration for the type of bullet they are actually using.

The proper bullet in a .223 will kill cleanly and humanely. Period. But you have to understand how bullets perform at various velocities and must put your shot where the animal lives, so to speak.

And that's just as true as saying a .458 WM or a .416 Lott will allow an animal to escape with poor shot placement. A larger caliber and an extra ton or two of energy likely won't matter when you put the bullet in the wrong spot.









Here's that same Speer 87 grain Hot Core bullet taken from test medium earlier in the year. Impact speed was 2324 fps.



Here's one more example. The Nosler 85 grain Ballistic Tip in .25 caliber is listed as a varmint bullet -- and at 25-06 or .257 Weatherby speeds, it certainly works as such. But put it into a cartridge like the 25 Bullberry, and it performs like a premium big game bullet, expanding well, creating a large, wide wound channel and still penetrating adequately to handle any whitetail, mulie or pronghorn out there.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
spot on P-dog,

Probably a good idea to learm to shoot off hand and at running targets before one hunts, if they cant kill a deer running at a 100 yards they need help.

I've done it, but I don't think I'm good at it. I can wait another day, if I don't like the shot.

One of the biggest bucks we have killed was by a young kid w a 223 AR.

He was using Nosler bullets of some type. I was w him. He shot it 5 times right on the heart. Buck never acted hit until it fell over. We were in a cut corner field. Did fine. Died on the 5th hit. That deer mass 100 pounds of bone out meat.

Fast forward to the next season. He shkt another big buck w it on a bench overlooking a saw barrier filled creek. We found two drops of blood and no buck.

This season, he bowling balled over an old, white faced 9 over w a good ole 30/30.

There are better options for youth. He is 12 years old this year.

300 black out super sonics, 6.5 Grendel, 257 Roberts, 25/06, even the 6.5 Creedmore-7mm/08.

My brother killed one deer before he dies. He shut a 3 year old 8 right between the bow times down into the brain w a 22 Horner at close range when the buck feed on acrons under him as set in the bank of a creek. The deer stumbled around for a standing 8 count and died. You could not see the entry whole on the skull/hide.

Will they work? Yes. Do I think they are better for folks who have experience in placing shots and in open country? Yes.

It seems the negative views of the .223 or other .22 centerfires for deer are by those who used an improper bullet or didn't even care to know what bullet was in the gun.

I'm not singling out anyone here, but that's just being irresponsible. If you don't know what you are shooting or have no idea what the bullet was intended for, you have no business pulling the trigger.

Here are a few examples of what I am referring to:


"using Nosler bullets of some type..."

"The bullet broke up upon impact . I do not recall what bullet I was using."

"I tried to break both shoulders on a large buck to see if the 60 gr Seirra would work..."

"That fallow was hit by a 60gr VMax...did not penetrate into the chest when fired down between the shoulders."

Bobby,

I agree. Bullet design is extremely important. Back in 1976, I shot an antelope in Wyoming with a 6mm Rem. I had done the research-at that time, the 87 gr. Hornady had a heavy jacket, and it was finely accurate in the custom Mauser. Shot at 350 yd., the buck took 2 steps and dropped-excellent expansion at the velocity.

I know of someone who shot a large whitetail in central TX with a .222 Mag loaded with 40 gr. Nosler BTs. The buck ran off and was found dead several days later. Almost the worst example of bullet choice one could make.

ClaMar