She will be eight next year. I know my suppressed AR and collapsible stock would fit her, but I'd like her to have a bolt rifle. 223, not my first choice. There is always 243. Any thoughts on 6.5 Creedmoor? Recoil?

As always your input is valued!

See below.

Depends what she will shoot with it.
The 22H is a great low recoil pretty effective varmint cartridge for varmints.
For deer size animals, how about a Rem model 7 in 260 or 7/08.

222 Rem?
6 BR?

Any of the small cartridges made for ARs would be great. I've got a 72 pound youngster shooting the 6.8 SPC and he loves it.

You might take a look at the .25-45 Sharps.

Rusty, unless you are loading some greatly reduced loads, I think a .243 way too much for an 8 year old girl. Why not a .223 or .222. As mentioned what will she be doing with it? Ruger .204 would be great for target shooting.

A lot just depends on the kid and how much recoil and muzzle blast they can tolerate.
I've raised 2 boys and the first boy didn't like recoil when he was little (8-11) even a .243 was more than he was comfortable shooting so I never forced it, now he's bigger than me and will shoot any rifle you hand him, .458, .416 Rigby, anything.
My youngest boy was different, I started him slow but he see was willing to step up fast and at 10 or 11 a .280 with full power loads was fine with him, now he's 13 and shoots my 400 Whelen and about anything else he wants.
What I'm saying is a .223 may be as much as she will handle for several years, but she may be tolerant to recoil and within 3 years shooting a .308 you just can't tell.
If it were me I would be very conservative and go with a .223 or a 6x45 or maybe a 6.5x45. All very capable for Deer at the right distances and all killers when put through the ribs.

Of my choices that I suggested I was thinking long term. One good thing about the 222 other than being a milder 22 is being able to travel with the gun to some countries that have a ban on military rounds. Think African trip and small game. The 6BR has potential for not only small game but F class marksmanship.
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/12FCLASS
http://bulletin.accurateshoote...ers-superb-accuracy/

Over the years, I have found kids to be highly unpredictable in regards to what they will or can tolerate as far as recoil is concerned.

First thing is for the adult(s) involved to not do something, for lack of a better term, dumb, such as having a kid that is just getting started shoot something the adult has trouble with recoil wise.

Kids change/adapt a lot faster usually than adults. Get a properly proportioned rifle and start them off slow. Start small and as the kid develops confidence and experience begin working up to larger calibers. I have seen plenty of 8 year olds that were perfectly comfortable and competent with a .243.

From what I have experienced a lot of the equation revolves around how the adult approaches the situation and the more confidence they show in the child's abilities to learn, to adapt, without pushing the issue, the better the results. Just some observations on my part.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
She will be eight next year. I know my suppressed AR and collapsible stock would fit her, but I'd like her to have a bolt rifle. 223, not my first choice. There is always 243. Any thoughts on 6.5 Creedmoor? Recoil?

As always your input is valued!

Howa mini in 6.5 Grendel? You could have it threaded and put the supressor on it.

My latest buy for the great-niece was a 700 in 260.

I guess I did it all wrong, but when my son was old enough to start shooting, I bought him a Remington 541T and had him start shooting paper. He was about six, if memory serves.

Three years later, the opportunity came for him to take his first deer. He shot her while sitting on my lap, and he did it with Dad's .270. When I asked him if the rifle kicked him, he told me he didn't know; that he was too busy looking through the cross hairs trying to make a good shot.

I don't like .243s in the hands of kids. I think there is just too much room for error. And I know: there is no excuse for a bad shot, and they will run just as far with a bad shot from an '06 as they will from a 22 RF. I just think that there IS such a thing as transfer of energy, and typically a bigger bullet transfers more energy, which I believe causes more internal trauma.

I have seen lung shot whitetails taken with 22-caliber 60-grain partitions and shot through the boiler room travel 400 yards before they gave out. Finding them was pure HELL, as they left little to no blood trail.

That doesn't happen with larger calibers, as they let more blood out and more cold air in.

260 Remington or maybe 7MM-08, both using Managed Recoil ammunition get my vote.

You are in Texas so the possibility of suppressing it in the future could be there. (not a knock, just jealous since I live in NY state) What about a 300 AAC Blackout? Heavy bullets subsonic, load it up as you get older, etc. CDNN has some of the Remingtons for a good price.

Think it would be good for a youngster if you don't like a .223. Mine all went from the .22 LR to a .222 Mag for paper punching.

When they are that young, its critical to have them shoot non recoiling rifles..I raised two boys and a girl, that shot first deer at 6 and 7 years old, and 4 grandkids all with a 222 and the great little 6x45 and 75 gr. monolithic bullets from Barnes and GS Customs..The 6x45 kills like lightening, shoots flat as a flitter, and absolutely no recoil..My other baby gun was the .222 and its great for an 8 year old out to 100 yards or more..Ive killed deer with the 222 beyond 200 yards with no problems, just use the right bullet and that is the 60 gr Hornady SP or HP...

But the bottom line is the 6x45 is the hands down winner..

250-300 Savage. It does not have to be loaded to the Top.

I started all my young hunters with a TC contender carbine in 357 max light weight, low noise, low recoil.

Simple easy to use kills deer well

22 mag if you have it, and then a .223! Only my opinion, but a .222, or .223 is the perfect step up to a near, no recoiling rifle. Obviously you can get them all the .223 bullets they want to burn, at a price that won't break the bank. Also, it's a round they'll be able to take varmint shooting in their teen age years. Small bang, and small recoil is key at that age.

6X45

This is my son Thomas with his first deer at 6 years old. He was a scrawny little dude at barely 40 pounds and fairly recoil and noise sensitive.

The shot was quartering towards him at about 80 yes. DRT using 85 gr Sierra Game King
He has shot a couple more since then, all one shot DRT!

In my opinion, there is no better round for a youth rifle. I have shot dozens of deer with a 223 and find they tend to go down a little faster with the 6X45. Also much less recoil and muzzle blast than a 243

Awesome pic. Tree'em! 6x45 sounds like a great choice. May have to find one for Grandson.

Tree 'em - That is awesome. Always wanted to try that caliber.

One thing I can't stress enough is shoot the rifle and load prior to letting a youngster try it. I developed a flinch as a kid, .44 mag Marlin 1894 with full house loads. The grown-ups said I was a whimp, but I was the first to try it. Maybe, but none of them shot it more than once when I challenged them to try it!

There is a Mark X Mini 223 on GB right now that would make a nice youth rifle. Perfect candidate for a 6X45.

quote:

Originally posted by hdxr750:
250-300 Savage. It does not have to be loaded to the Top.

10-4 on the 250 or a loaded down .243 to 6.5 x 45 ballis tics. roger

Check out the howa mini actions and the CZ 527. These are small, light bolt actions chambered for things like 22 hornet, 204, 223, 6.5 grendel, etc.

I think a .243 or any cartridge of about that case volume would be ideal if you reload AND if Hodgdon lists loads using H4895 for it.

According to Hodgdon: "Hodgdon Powder Company has found that H4895 can be loaded to reduced levels. H4895 was chosen because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly in reduced charges. To create reduced loads, the 60% formula is recommended.

"Find the H4895 load in the Reloading Data Center for your caliber and bullet.

"Take the maximum H4895 charge listed and multiply by 60% (.6). The load may be adjusted up from there to achieve the desired velocity and accuracy.

"This works only where H4895 is listed. DO NOT use in a cartridge where H4895 is not shown."

Another mention is the 22-250 its a deer slayer deluxe, I actually prefer it to the 243 Win.

Loading down a 250 Savage is also an excellent option...

Probably the desider is how small a rifle can you put your boys caliber in, thus my choice for the 6x45 over the years..Its my culling gun, kids gun, wifes gun, it does it all in a very compact small light rife..My 6x45 is on a Sako L-461 with a light weight 18 inch barrel and weighs 5 lbs. scoped with its custom stock. The short barrel gives me 2900 FPS with a 75 gr. GS Customs or Barnes bullet ( The Barnes discontinued, but an 80 gr. is available I think) It gets a nice size exit hole on any broadside shot, even on Mule Deer, kills very well indeed..The 100gr. bullets get me an easy 2700 FPS and are popular in Africa with the 6x45 that is very popular with the Africans for culling.

Another vote for a 6x45, aka 6mm223Rem. Own one myself. I put a 6x45 Shaw savage replacement barrel on an Axis .223 rifle. Its a hoot for me to shoot and one of my more accurate rifles. A 6x45 would be nice for a youngster.

I know you said you wanted a bolt action, but that AR with the collapsible stock, coupled with a 300 Blackout upper loaded with a 125 gr. Nosler B.T. at 23-2400 fps. No recoil to speak of,quite effective to 250 yds, whats not to like? Easy peasy and you have a good excuse for a new upper !

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
She will be eight next year. I know my suppressed AR and collapsible stock would fit her, but I'd like her to have a bolt rifle. 223, not my first choice. There is always 243. Any thoughts on 6.5 Creedmoor? Recoil?

As always your input is valued!

had 257 Bobs for both my boys a couple of decades ago-

6.5 is hard to beat for an "all around" as they grow bigger-
80 to 160gr options,
while the Bob and 243 top out at 115 to 120

When my daughter turned nine, she started shooting the rifle I built for her. (Remington 700 action, model 7 18.5" barrel and a wooden stock that was whittled down to her size... and of course, a pink cerakote job!)
She is petite, usually the smallest kid in her class.
I kept recoil manageable by loading 80 gr Barnes at starting load levels. (2800 fps)
So far it has worked for her.

Two BIG thumbs up to Couesdeer and his daughter!

Great Couesdeer> Fantastic. What cal is the rifle?

Oops. I forgot to mention that... Its a .243

Congrats to all these young hunters..Rusty this year is my daughters first year to hunt too... I have rigged her up a 7TCU (7-223) seems to be accurate and well tell you how it works out...



Ed

KW Johnston, Good idea to get the stock that fits. I like to get two stocks to cut one down, but still have the original. I too cast bullets and am aware that they do reduce both recoil and blast and 30-30 can easily be tamed down to a kids level. I made the huge mistake of trying cast bullets in a .243. They were accurate and around 2900 fps but the spike buck that both me and my grandson shot, ran off and not a drop of blood found. Many cast shooters say that deer hunting cast bullets start at .40 cal where expansion is not a consideration. I don't know? That one bad experience made me decide to stick with jacketed bullets for hunting and .22 cal 55 grain cup and core work great. If you try it, good luck and hope to hear a report that your son gets a good one.

quote:

Originally posted by Couesdeer:
Oops. I forgot to mention that... Its a .243

WAY TO GO. roger

quote:

. I too cast bullets and am aware that they do reduce both recoil and blast and 30-30 can easily be tamed down to a kids level. I made the huge mistake of trying cast bullets in a .243. They were accurate and around 2900 fps but the spike buck that both me and my grandson shot, ran off and not a drop of blood found. Many cast shooters say that deer hunting cast bullets start at .40 cal where expansion is not a consideration. I don't know?

That cast bullet at2900 fps. is some what of a surprise.

A 300 gr.gas checked.358 cal at 2100 fps. (06 energy level)Is another story. This was done with my .358X41, 16" barrel.Though it does have a bit of recoil. roger

7.62x39 bolt gun.

Otherwise maybe a 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 30-30 etc. Maybe 6.5 BR or 7mm BR but that may be too much of a good thing.

We all like the smaller calibres but for hunting they are for users with impeccable shot placement. They generally have lesser penetration and no frontal diameter.

I still feel a 7.62x39 is first prize.

bartsche---You are most correct, the cast bullet at 2900 fps was a HUGE surprise. I just gave the short story. The Lyman manual said the load should be 2400 fps. A guys chronograph said they were 2900 fps. I shot some other loads over his chronie and all were as expected. The owner of the chronie said he had shot several of his loads over it that day and all seemed normal. The cast in question did print where jacketed of the same weight were printing. I still don't know as I haven't fooled with them much after the experience with the spike. Not that it matters, they were gas checked. ( I have came to the conclusion that the only purpose a gas check serves is making money for the person that sells them). I did shoot a few (after the spike incident) without gas checks and I wasn't getting leading.

I know I'm off tpoic but always believed that the gas check acted as a heat obsorber preventing the lead from melting at initial high presure and temperature allowing for possible gas leakage. The other thing that's nice about gas checks is that it makes bullet seating a lot easier and some what prevents the bullet dia. from gauling. I think I read that some where in the past. roger

bartsche if you quickly pass your finger through a flame, or better yet, hold a piece of lead with pliers and as fast as you can pass it through a cutting torch flame. You WONT melt the lead. Now you will be very slow as compared to a bullet exiting. The lead you passed through had many times more exposure. That brief nano second a bullet is exposed to the heat wont melt it. Recover a cast bullet and the lube is still on it. If it were hot enough to melt, the lube would have turned to liquid and be spun off. Agree a non flaired case it is easier to seat a gas checked bullet, but even with a gas check a slight flair is better and it gets removed when you seat the bullet.

used to spend a fair bit if time teaching kids to shoot and taking them hunting-

1st- a rifle (just)short and light enough to manage-
but long enough to help them out a bit with muzzle safety

2nd- one they are not afraid to shoot, either due to blast or recoil

3rd - and least--caliber

100 yds and in--
probably makes little difference in caliber

have had the tykes use 110 and 125 30-30 "reduced recoil" loads to great success
likewise with other cals-

also, have had some of them the use
full power 223, 22-250, 243, 257, 308 etc
really depends on the kid

Distance 150, 200, 300--
the faster "flatter" loads are better-

some kids learn fast and are quite capable shots
some- not so much-

for those trying a kill at distance
the flatter shooting cartridges are of greater benefit than a larger less "flat"caliber

after all they are just beginning, should we really expect them know how to to elevate or wind-

as someone else pointed out -
good bullets, mono's, partitions/a frames, bonded's etc , have greatly alleviated the need for the mass needed in a more frangible cup and core to create wounding and exit

but they must hit the vital area--
if the kid (or the adult) does not place the shot well--

well we all know that outcome