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He and HC like to scrap. | |||
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A couple of months my grandpa and I were having a good discussion about the .223 and AR-15's. He couldn't understand why I would want to have an AR in anything but the .223 (6.5 Grendel and 458 SOCOM were being discussed). In his mind a 55 grain soft point was just fine for elk hunting, and perfect for deer. He used to use it on occasion for elk, and that was what he gave his girlfriends to kill numerous mule deer, whitetail, and elk, to include an abnormally large 5x5 he had mounted... Considering that he also used a 460 and 378 WBY for elk hunting, maybe he was just attracted to the extremes on either end of the spectrum. In my opinion the caliber is a little light for elk, but I think it's just fine for deer (haven't used it myself). Brandon | |||
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What state is it legal to shoot elk with a .223? Not saying it is not true, just asking. | |||
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Texas  | |||
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Idaho | |||
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My opinion on the 223 Rem for deer hunting is this, sure I could do it, good shot , stalker, et al. but primarily, the 223 is the "Poacher's best friend" nuff said. That's really why many want to use the 223........... Socialism works great until you run out of the other person's money...... | |||
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Aggie Dog---I have never poached---but if I did I'd use a .22 rimfire. At night with spotlight you can get very close. The one common thing I read in .223 on deer debate, is the nay sayers never seem to have any experience doing it---just an OPINION based on no experience. I would also say I don't recall ever passing up a shot, regardless of what rifle I was carrying where if I had bigger gun would have taken the shot. The old not an ideal shot, except for having a big gun just doesn't fly. | |||
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Hey CarpetMan, Actually, I base my comments on a lot of first-hand experience with Larger Cartridges that I am able to compared to each other. I've made a lot of Kills with a 243Win, 7mm-08, 308Win, 30-06, 7mmRemMag and up. Based on a whole bunch of actual clean 1-shot Kills, it is easy to see the more profound effects of available Energy(as the Cartridges increase in Power) - or the opposite - less trauma(staggering, drops, blood loss, internal damage, broken bones, smashed internal organs, etc.) with the smaller calibers. I realize that being hit on my hand with a 1# hammer dropped from 3' would create less trauma than having the same thing happen with a 25# sledge. And I do not need to "experience it" first-hand to understand the difference. So, I do not need to "experience" a totally Inadequate Cartridge for the task at hand to understand the results. | |||
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Soooo, you have no experience AT ALL with said cartridge but still argue a point based on OTHER cartridges and a hammer. Perry | |||
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I am now dumber for reading this response. By the way the saying is a 22lr/22mag is a poachers best friend. Perry | |||
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With "1,000's of deer kills" and no knowledge of the anatomy of a deer, this statement like many others is another example of pure fantasy. Pitiful and be warned. | |||
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Hot Core---The Question was for people with actual experience--will a .223 work? You log on and say you have no experience---but basically it is an ethical question and based on your non experience, it is not ethical. Several people post numerous positive results. Not one person has posted a negative experience. Now you tell me the .243, .308, 30-06 are effective. You are singing to the choir there---I know what they do. I have posted several times that I gave my grandson a .308 and what a fine job it is doing for him. Before the .308 he was using a .243 and was getting fine results. I really don't think the .308 is doing a thing he wasn't doing with the .243. It wasn't a case of him needing bigger---it was a case of my having a rifle I wanted to give him that happened to be a .308. Now you tell us you have no experience with doing the job with the smaller cartridge in question---but you know all about it from using the larger ones?? That is like saying you go grocery shopping in an 18 wheeler and they work fine----and so you know a station wagon, van, pickup truck, or automobile just won't work. I do have a negative results post to make. Both my grandson and I shot a spike buck with a .243 using CAST bullet. Not one drop of blood found. I see no way both of us missed. Based on this one time experience--I will not try it again. PROBABLY a .40 cal or larger with cast bullet would have done the job. But this thread is not about doing it with cast bullets. A .223 with a 55 grain jacketed bullet and placed in proper spot---have a sharp knife--you'll have a dead deer. Ive tried it with .243,.308 and 30-06 and it doesnt kill em deader. BTW where would you get a 25 pound sledge--would take Hercules to use it. | |||
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Bought mine at White-Jones Hardware Store in Anderson, SC maybe 40 years ago. It makes a real impression on obstinate metal parts. Only have to swing it a couple of times. Best of luck ot you. | |||
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Kinda like a cartridge/bullet combo suited for big game, Huh?  | |||
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Wayfaring Stranger, Below is a link to a pretty good thread on hunting deer, elk, cougar and black bear with .223, 22-250, and 220 Swift.. Kinda blows the theory that the .22 cal. should only be used on small deer eh?  http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...ig_Game_Rifle_22_250 | |||
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I don't think the link and the thread there adds much to what has been said here. This is an interesting topic, even though many say it has been  I would really like to see some data, if there is any, on this subject. There is much data in shotgunning for ducks and geese with steel vr. lead shot and various shot size and their effectiveness on various birds. Has no one done any type of study on rifle calibers, bullet weights, bullet construction, velocity etc.. needed to humanely dispatch big game of varying size?? In my state and many others I'm sure, all center fire rifles of .22 caliber and larger are legal sporting arms for deer and other big game. I would think that the Game Department would be up on this and not allow their use if they believed it to be marginal. I think they are marginal, but I have no actual experience shooting a big game animal with a .223. I think that with the proper bullet, distance, angle etc.. it could be done with regularity, but it wouldn't be my choice especially if I was shooting at the deer of a lifetime. I'd want to anchor him. | |||
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rcamuglia, I posted the link for Wayfaring Stranger since he is the OP, but there is no rule that sez's you can't take a peak at it also.. There are some trophy bucks in the thread... Take a look and maybe some of you're questions will be answered, assuming that you have made up your mind already.. You see, some posters in that thread that have actually taken game with their .22 cal. rifles are saying that from their experience the .22's kill just as fast or faster than larger calibers.. One of these days I'll have to give it a try myself as the biggest animals that I have shot with my 22-250 has been wolves with 2 of them going over 150 pounds guesstimate.. | |||
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“Note I am NOT asking an ETHICAL question. I just want to know whats been done, and pics are great.” You wanted to stir the pot and just sit back and watch, that’s cool. What’s your opinion? You haven’t contributed to this thread for close to 2 weeks now. | |||
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Wooooops, I've accidentally pulled a "teanScum"(lying sack of obummer) on everyone. I got the 25# Sledge at Belknap Hardware in Louisville, KY and a 15# Sledge at White-Jones in Anderson, SC. Went to make sure it was with me, and it has Belknap on the handle. Been too long ago with some "light" use. | |||
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Why is it that in NA it's "I can take a brown bear with a BB gun" and in Africa it's "If you don't have over 500 caliber, you are undergunned for bushbuck"?  Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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Hot Core---Too long ago with light use? Use it squirrel hunting? | |||
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Also AZ & MT Brandon | |||
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I get pretty sick and tired of those saying one must have experience with a 223 to have an educated opinion about using it for stuff bigger than mice. I have no experience with bungie jumping either, but that certainly doesn't have much to do with whether I have an opinon about it, or whether such opinion is valid. I know a crazy old Norwegien in SE Alaska who shot several brown bears over time, and a long time ago, with a 220 swift, and he swears it's the best. In his days, many didn't care it it ran off, and sometimes these old bastards would intentionally gut shoot one on the beach from a fishing boat. So, often those advocates with "experience" let their "opinion" get in the way of facts. So, of course this isn't a question of ethics. Never has been.  KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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The 222 with Norma 55 grain Oryx bullet over 26 grains of Win 748 is a magic formula on deer out to about 100 yards. I shot a Sika Hind with this load a couple of weeks ago at about 15 yards, bang, lights out. The 223 should be ok too. | |||
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I have a number of pictures my Namibian friend sends of his nephew and critters shot on his farm with a Brno 223. One shot kills on hartebeast,kudu,warthogs and even cow elands. I shake my head over these pictures, but a 223 obviously works in the right hands. | |||
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Nice observation Mick. What gives? | |||
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So at 100 yds, what animal would be too big for a 223? a kudu, bison, elk, brown bear? I'm just trying to get a sense at what point I should move up to, say, my 270!!!  | |||
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Kablewy, You know what they say about opinions And for the record I rarely shoot bears in the guts with mine from the boat anymore. Perry | |||
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Hanging Targets! | |||
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Rcamuglia, it’s a question to Wayfaring Stranger, nothing more or nothing less. He said his question is not an ethical question, maybe and maybe not. Surely he had his own opinion before he asked his question. | |||
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Carpetman You are correct. If one has a bad shot one should not take it. That applies regardless of the cartridge. The point is there are some shots that are not bad for some cartridge/bullet combinations but yet are bad for others. I suppose there in is some ethical quandery. I have shot a lot of animals from squirrels (ranter small ones at that) up through elk (including numerous black tail and mule deer) with 5.56/.223. I've also used the cartridge on two legged varmints of the PAVN specie. I never lost an animal as I always picked my shot. Deer are not hard to kill if you put the bullet in the right place. I would much rather have someone hunt deer with a .223 that they could shoot well than a larger cartridge they can not shoot at all without closing their eyes and jerking the trigger. I see many "hunters" who can not shoot their larger caliber rifles well and in most instances the rifles are not zeroed. To the contrary I've seen numerous hunters use smaller cartridges like the .223 and kill deer very cleanly. Larry Gibson | |||
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I've done some surfing and have not found anyone who recommends the .22 calibers for anything but varmints.Recommended caliber/bullet combinations for killing various game | |||
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double | |||
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  ---------------------------------------- If you waste your time a talkin' to the people who don't listen To the things that you are sayin' who do you thinks gonna hear And if you should die explainin' how the thing they complain about Or the things they could be changing who do you thinks gonna care Waylon Jennings | |||
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Yet more information suggesting the .22 calibers are unsuited for even small deer and antelope. The Taylor Index
When you click on these links, you can skip a lot of trouble if you just go to table 1 and table 2.......... Hope this helps. | |||
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"anyone" is the guy who recommends the .223 for big game that I haven't found in a Google search on the subject which is, by the way, more than anyone has gone to the trouble to do here on this thread. "Opinions" of everyone here are always helpful, but some concrete, mathematically proven tests usually tip the scale. I wouldn't call an ad from a company who wants to sell their product "reading" a qualified, differing view. I'm not saying killing big game with a .22 caliber can't be done mind you; I'm saying it's not optimal by any degree. Let me again stress:
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Instead of reverting to some bunk calculation from a a washed up gunmedia hack from the last century why not look to what the ammunition manufacturer suggests. http://www.federalpremium.com/...ls/rifle.aspx?id=797 http://www.federalpremium.com/...ls/rifle.aspx?id=864 http://www.federalpremium.com/...ls/rifle.aspx?id=210
translation Mr Taylor is completely full of shit! anyone who buys in to the brush cartridge myth is not someone to be relied apoun for solid scientific data | |||
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Pretty cool link Krochus. The "Rifle load recommendations" link is neat. But realize it's just a company expanding their product line, producing another thing to add to their bottom line. I'm sure, as I've stated before in this thread, with these premium bullets it can be done.
This is what it's all about. If a .22 caliber is all you can afford or have access to, then it will have to do. I gaurantee the chances of wounding an animal, hitting one and never recovering it, having to pass because on an unethical shot angle, having to pass because of of the animal being out of range for the cartridge etc. is exponentially higher than with a larger caliber/heavier bullet. What a bummer to be on a hunt of a lifetime with a prarie dog gun, seeing a buck of a lifetime, and wounding it or not being able to take it because you didn't bring your deer rifle. | |||
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