444 Marlin case necked up to .452??

23 May 2014, 09:19

Doubless

I don't see the benefit of a .452" bullet being driven at the velocities the 444 Marlin case can develop. I would think .458" would be much better; you would then have the potential for loading any 45-caliber rifle projectile, even using cast if you wish...

23 May 2014, 16:40

jeffeosso

the 45/90 is actually shorter in length, but larger in capacity. i don't know of anyone taking the 444 past .429 ..

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com

23 May 2014, 21:41

Idaho Sharpshooter

If you look, the 444 case is almost identical to the rimmed versions of the various ?x57mm military cases used in Europe. .471" at the base and 2.25" oal.

A pass thru a 45-70 FL sizer die with a .452" expander plug, in theory, would produce the case you are thinking of.

Most of the larger caliber JD Jones rimmed cases are based on the .444 case.

24 May 2014, 04:26

dpcd

To clarify some wrong numbers; 45-90 cases are 2.4 inches long, and the 444 is 2.225,, so 444s are actually shorter. The other name for the 45-90 (a Winchester name) is the .45 2.4 inch.
Anyway, why would you want so much powder capacity for .452 bullet; those are not for big game and fired that fast would just blow up. Get a 45-70.
So to answer your questions: yes (if feasible means possible) and no. For good reasons.

24 May 2014, 11:47

boom stick

Notice the neck diameter is the same as the 45 bullet. You could Rebore the 444 barrel and perhaps make a shortened cart to say 1.8". like the 460 S&W XVR.

Obviously use similar dies and reamer. Make note that the 460 is a few thou wider. You could make a wildcat set up to take a longer case to say 2.050" and the 460 XVR factory ammo depending on if a strong action like a single shot action used or just load the bullets out on the shorter case. Note the 60k psi of the 460 vs the 45k psi of the 444 marlin case. Don't go and make a bad boom but you could load down the 460 and not use factory ammo. If you did a 2.050" case the starting pressures would be reduced. Could be a fun project with available dies and reamers. I would call it the 454 Merlin

although I would want a strong action like a Ruger #1 single shot for this for load development.

24 May 2014, 17:00

lostchild1

I use this in my h&r 45/410. I load using 45 colt dies and 445sm data. Usually it takes two or three fireings to fireform but there are no sighns of exessive pressure. I don't load this for more power but for better accuracy

31 May 2014, 02:26

.366torque

quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
Notice the neck diameter is the same as the 45 bullet. You could Rebore the 444 barrel and perhaps make a shortened cart to say 1.8". like the 460 S&W XVR. Obviously use similar dies and reamer. Make note that the 460 is a few thou wider. You could make a wildcat set up to take a longer case to say 2.050" and the 460 XVR factory ammo depending on if a strong action like a single shot action used or just load the bullets out on the shorter case. Note the 60k psi of the 460 vs the 45k psi of the 444 marlin case. Don't go and make a bad boom but you could load down the 460 and not use factory ammo. If you did a 2.050" case the starting pressures would be reduced. Could be a fun project with available dies and reamers. I would call it the 454 Merlin although I would want a strong action like a Ruger #1 single shot for this for load development.

This was my other way of thinking. I'll have to find a 'smith to do it.

31 May 2014, 02:41

.366torque

el jeffe, Rich I have an original Big Bore 94. My goal is to have a "16-"18 barreled back packer special.
The 45-70 has too wide of a rim.
Because it is not AE, I can pour the coal to it.
I know of a company that'll custom make hard cast boolits.

31 May 2014, 04:00

boom stick

I reduced the rim of the 45-70 to .532" for a concept cart and you can reduce it to the 444 size. As a concept cart, necking down a 45-70 to make a 445-70 on a 444 gun is interesting. If you had to have it 2.25" you could use 45-90 brass. A wildcatter's job is never done

31 May 2014, 18:38

.366torque

Rim reduction! Friggin cool! I like it AND have all necessary reloading tools.
Thanks boom!

31 May 2014, 22:50

PaulS

The 444 necked up for a .452 caliber bullet would be a "reverse taper" round. The case just in front of the rim is .471" and the mouth, with a .452 caliber bullet would be .475" diameter.
You could make it a straight wall case by turning the neck thickness by .002" providing .004" reduction in the diameter. That would only leave the neck only .0095" thick though which is very thin.

31 May 2014, 23:32

boom stick

quote:
Originally posted by .366torque:
Rim reduction! Friggin cool! I like it AND have all necessary reloading tools.
Thanks boom!

Glad you like.
What are you thinking? A reduced rim necked down 45-70 to 444 bullets or 45 pistol bullets or just a reduced rim 45-70? I liked the idea of a bolt action 45-70 reduced rim +p that would be a modern version of the 45-70-500 that is old nomenclature of a 45 cal bullet, the charge and the bullet weight. The differences between the 45-70-405 and 45-70-500 were that the 45-70-500 was obviously more bullet weight but loaded out much longer and could be great for a short length bolt action with nominal rifle bullets seated out .8" thus an advantage of useable case capacity, any bullets and higher pressure with cheap components not to mention the ability to use slightly altered factory ammo in a pinch.

01 June 2014, 03:49

.366torque

quote:
Originally posted by PaulS:
The 444 necked up for a .452 caliber bullet would be a "reverse taper" round. The case just in front of the rim is .471" and the mouth, with a .452 caliber bullet would be .475" diameter.
You could make it a straight wall case by turning the neck thickness by .002" providing .004" reduction in the diameter. That would only leave the neck only .0095" thick though which is very thin.

I'm going with boom's idea with the 45-70's rim turned down.

01 June 2014, 03:49

.366torque

quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
quote:
Originally posted by .366torque:
Rim reduction! Friggin cool! I like it AND have all necessary reloading tools.
Thanks boom!

Glad you like.
What are you thinking? A reduced rim necked down 45-70 to 444 bullets or 45 pistol bullets or just a reduced rim 45-70? I liked the idea of a bolt action 45-70 reduced rim +p that would be a modern version of the 45-70-500 that is old nomenclature of a 45 cal bullet, the charge and the bullet weight. The differences between the 45-70-405 and 45-70-500 were that the 45-70-500 was obviously more bullet weight but loaded out much longer and could be great for a short length bolt action with nominal rifle bullets seated out .8" thus an advantage of useable case capacity, any bullets and higher pressure with cheap components not to mention the ability to use slightly altered factory ammo in a pinch.

Turn down the 45-70 rim, it makes the most sense.

01 June 2014, 09:13

boom stick

Torque... Would you use a .532" rim? Would you leave the rest the same as a nominal 45-70?

01 June 2014, 19:48

.366torque

boom I may have found a lever action 'smith. I'll talk to him and hopefully it'll be a go.

05 June 2014, 11:18

boom stick

Here is the 45-70-500 compared to the 45-70. You can see the advantage of a short action bolt action with the longer OAL. BTW I was thinking the ultimate 444 would be opening up the 9,3x74 to 44 cal bullets for use on a 1895 lever action

06 June 2014, 06:03

.366torque

quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
Here is the 45-70-500 compared to the 45-70. You can see the advantage of a short action bolt action with the longer OAL. BTW I was thinking the ultimate 444 would be opening up the 9,3x74 to 44 cal bullets for use on a 1895 lever action

You'd have a hell for stout smacker. You could use Barnes front stuffer bullets. They have a spire point and a boat tail.