The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Wildcats And Their Development .411 or .416 for necked up 30/06?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Months ago I asked some questions about the largest practicle size to neck a 30/06 up to and we had a great discussion and I learned a lot. I am actually getting closer to making a move on my project ( 1903 Springfield ) and I have even more questions. What was the original bullet diameter used for the 400 Whelen (.411?)? I have been looking at bullet availability for this project and it seems that there are substantially more bullets available for the .416 diameter rather than the .411 diameter and I have absolutely no interest in shooting reduced loads and pistol bullets. Which diameter is appropriate for this project? What was the diameter of the 450/400 that everyone is so enamored with for African hunting? I am hoping to be able to drive 350 to 400 grain bullets to roughly 2000 fps without getting into excessive pressure so that it may be used in high temp areas as well as a cold weather Bear and Moose rifle. I'd like to hear more on this topic so please elaborate and I may have more questions as we go along. Thanks | ||
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Everything I have calls the 400 Whelen as .411. Same info calls the 450-400 as .409. Hopefully someone that actually shoots it can tell you for sure. I feel that for either the 416 or 411 you need to have the case either blown our or use a cylinder brass to form. This is a info if you haven't read it. http://www.z-hat.com/smashing_the_headspace_myth.htm I'v built a 416 wildcat with a blown out 280 case (.458" shoulder) it worked fine. I'm going to build a second but it will be .411. The 411 would have been my first choice when I built the 416 but 416 bullets were easier to find. 411 hawk might be easier all way around. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Ramrod I keep leaning to the .411 Hawk as I think the proper headstamped brass and the shoulder design are catching my interest although I really wanted a 400 Whelen stamp on my barrel! Even though the selection for bullets in .411 isn't as broad as the .416 I'm thinking that the Hawk and Northfork bullets as well as the Barnes would cover most applications. If I could push a 400 grain bullet to 2100 FPS without high pressure that would put me over the edge. Does anybody stock the .411 Hawk reamers or is it just Hawk themselves? | |||
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There are more 411 bullets now than there were (darn almost 10 years ago) when I built my 416. That is why I'm building it's replacement in 411. Plus plinking with pistol bullets. They will work great on water bottles.  I have not seen 411 reamers listed but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Midway sells the 411 Hawk brass. My 416 case holds 82.2 grs of water. My accuracy load with a 400 Hawk bullets gives me 2160. That is several grs and 50fps below my stopping point. It was not pressure just lack of space. I stopped at what I calculated as 105% net capacity. I was only gaining around 25fps per gr of powder anyway. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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If you end up renting a .411 Hawk reamer let me know I may be ready to help split up the cost on that. On your 416 load with the 400 grain bullet was that a hot load or did you feel it was at a pressure to be relied on? I'll be checking with Pac-Nor and see if they have access to a reamer they have been great people for me to deal with in the past. Thanks | |||
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411 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Boom stick was your reply "411" the answer to which or all of my questions? Ramrod I just checked the Pac-Nor website and they make a .411 barrel, they also list a 400 Whelen as a .408 diameter? 450/400 according to their site is .411. So lets see even if they don't have a .411 Hawk reamer could I get them to put a .411 pilot on a 400 Whelen or a .280 reamer? Would that be the same as a .411 Hawk? Anybody have dimensions/ drawings for a .411 Hawk? | |||
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Interesting. News to me. If you are asking me about the 411 Hawk reamer I'm using my own wildcat reamer. I've used it from 243 to 416. I'll just get a new pilot. As to closest to a Hawk simply run a 9.3x62 reamer with the right pilot and then neck/throat. The 375 Hawk/Scoville was built on the 9.3x62 case. The later revised to use the small head 06 case and maybe a shoulder angle change. I get confused reading the history. http://www.z-hat.com/Handloader166.htm With the cases now available no reason to to use it. I have not seen one directly. Take the 375Hawk/scoville and neck up to 411. http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd375hawkscovill.jpg As to my 2160 load. Like I said it is 2 or 3 grs less than my stopping point.I stopped at 105% of capacity with 4895. Off the top of my head Loadtech called that load around 55,000. I never tried anything faster. My buddy has it on lifetime loan in alaska. He had got a steal on some 340 Woodleigh and loads them in front of 4064. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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give fred zeglin a call...he is one of the most knowledgable dudes on the subject. i was under the impression the 400 whelen was 411. have fun! 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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There are cylindrical .400 Whelen cases to be bought. Get a reamer with the original .458" shoulder and never look back. It is a super classic, better than ever with todays powders and bullets. Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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Bent Where have you seen the .400 Whelen cases? I found 30/06 stamped cylinder brass on Z-hats and Grafs websites but I think .400 Whelen stamped brass would be exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks | |||
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Midway has it. http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=1&Cat...*652***670***9013*** I wouldn't pay extra for the headstamp but that is just me. I've also had no experience with quality brass. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Quality makes them, and they are good, but thick in the neck area, so you might have to ream them. But the stamp is correct, and that counts for something - for some of us!  Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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You know I've thought about correct headstamps over the years. But I've spent so many years with various rifles built on BLOWN out 280 cases I think I would just get confused. But on the current 400 project after chambering and getting dies made I'm going to go with Cylinder brass. Heck of a lot less work. Must be getting lazy in my senior years. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Thanks for all the great info guys. Today (July 4th) Penny at Pac-Nor e-mailed me back and said that there website is in error and yes the 400 Whelen is in fact .411 and they will modify their site and thanked me for pointing out the error. I was really shocked to hear from her on the 4th of July but very nice, she also said that the correct twist for 370 and 400 grain bullets would be the 16 twist. Any comments on the twist? I will go with the correctly headstamped brass beings how it is available might as well use it. Would I send cartridge drawings to RCBS or send them fired cases to get a set of dies built? Thanks again and have a happy Independance day! | |||
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I was leaning towards a 14 but only because that is what Douglas has. Due to the confusion on the designs of the 400 I would opt for custom dies. I've had them made by RCBS (huntington I believe) and Hornady. The first was the RCBS the last several were Hornady. I felt that they didn't work the brass as much. Just send in 3 fired cases and a check. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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I have some barnes .411 solids for sale in classified if any one is interested If you own a gun and you are not a member of the NRA and other pro 2nd amendment organizations then YOU are part of the problem. | |||
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Thanks for the heads up. I've just really never met a Barnes that I liked. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Does someone here actually have a 411 Hawk as done by Zhat? I like the cartridge for the ability to reload via one reach to the belt for a stripper clip of 5 rounds if the action that is used still has the stripper clip guide. I guess that with a 26 inch barrel the 411 Hawk can reach original 404 Jeffery specs of 2125 FPS or so with 400 grain bullets, but with the ability to reload 5 cartridges much faster. Maybe a 1903 actioned, Sedgely Springfield clone with a peep rear and front post sight? Or for the more utilitarian approach, a Springfield action in a synthetic stock with a peep rear and a scout scope mount on the barrel? Blasphemy? What say ye? | |||
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I really do think the .411/06 would be a great cart. that would do just fine for a world wide hunter. If you own a gun and you are not a member of the NRA and other pro 2nd amendment organizations then YOU are part of the problem. | |||
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I've got a 411 Hawk done by Z-Hat. It's built on a lever action Winchester 1895. 22" barrel. Very nice rifle, workmanship is well done. The cartridge is a fine one. I haven't had any problems with headspace. Forming cases is done by using cylinder brass obtained from Quality cartridge and ran through Zeglin's sizing dies. | |||
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Take a look at the load data on Z-Hat.com and you will see some loads (400gr/2100fps) fired by Wayne Van Zoll. He was so impressed that he had Fred build one for him. I don't think you need a 26" barrel. Start ordering some 300 grain NorthFork bullets today! | |||
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"411 Hawk... Devastating authority on moose and brown bear." Dave Scovill, Editor in Chief "The Legacy of Lever Guns" Nice!  | |||
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Snapper I have already looked at that info you pointed out on the Z hat website. I think with the traditinal chambering for 400 Whelen I may be able to get over 2000 fps with the 370-400 grain bullets at least that's what I'll hope for. I am undecided yet as to a 22, 23, or 24" barrel and the contour but I'm thinking on it. DPhillips what load are you shooting in that 95? Any idea of the velocity? Any results on game animals to report? | |||
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Some friends in Montana have developed a wildcat they call the 411 Ryan express - 400 grains at 2100, based on an old holland and holland belted case with standard headsize. Rebarrel a M77 Ruger and your in business. They've figured out how to use standard dies, etc, and had a case run done with headstamp etc. A gunsmith in Helena Mt is doing the chambering work. Hell of an elk round. Rebarrel about 350, dies used are I think 405 win). Case is straightwalled, 06 length. If you want more info, I'll track it down for you. | |||
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63 grains of H4985 should push a 300 gr Northfork at 2,500 fps from a 24 inch barrel. I've handled a #4 Douglas barrel (24") that was .650 at the muzzle that felt great on a bolt gun. This caliber doesn't need a long, heavy barrel. Use 35 Whelen brass necked up and back down in a 411 hawk die. | |||
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In the order of the highest velocity for a given pressure: 1) AA2230 2) BLC-2 3) H4895 Snap, you shoot that damn coyote or just take it's picture?  | |||
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I shoot a lot just like him!!!   | |||
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I have a 400 Whelen, albeit in the Ackley Improved version (40 degree shoulder, minimum case taper). The correct bullet size is .411. There is no need to fool around with 400 grain bullets in my opinion...the 350 grain solids and soft points out there get better velocity and perform better. The 300 grain soft points are ideal for virtually all non-dangerous game. I used mine in Tanzania this past September on a one gun safari, and really enjoyed the performance of the cartridge. Right now the best bullets currently on the market are the North Forks, although I also used 300 grain Barnes X and Swift A-frames (350 grains) in Africa that did very well. I don't think it makes a difference if you go with the 411 Hawk or the 400 Whelen...the performance between the two is extremely close. Garrett | |||
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Garrett What animals did you use it in in Africa and what was the performance like? I admit the 300's and 350's are probably more than adequate. Thanks | |||
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Snellstrom, I took Hippo, waterbuck, hartebeast, impala, warthog, and a few other plainsgame with the 400 Whelen. My rifle arrived late into camp (48 hours late), so on the first day I used the PH's extra rifle (458 Lott) to take a buffalo. The cartridge performed extremely well, and I would describe it like a 375 H&H that leaves a 40 caliber hole. I would use it anyplace I would normally use a 375 H&H. (Had a shot at a mature lion, but his mane was minimal so I passed on the shot....no other shootable males on the trip, but I don't regret passing on him) Garrett | |||
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400 gr. Hawk Round Nose, Reloader 15 - 57 gr. @ 2159 fps Model 43 psi 58,700 | |||
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Thanks Snapper, what is your source for that load? | |||
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This is one of the loads listed at Z-Hat.com. Call Mike at North Fork for more info on shooting this cartridge (or Ed Stevenson). The site has a lot of information in different places. A good article on the 400 Whelen as well. I know RCBS has made dies for this cartridge. What are you thinking now? | |||
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who made the reamer for you? What was your starting point for loading? I've always liked the 416 idea time may be close to giving it a go...... | |||
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yellowhammer The reamer was cut by Clymer. It started life as a 7mm. I had it converted to removable pilots. The orginal design called for a .458 shoulder. My fired brass measures .46 so I think Clymer was a touch generous. I come up with my starting loads same as I had to do for the various other versions. Find cartridges that were close adjust for capacity and start low. At that time I was using all 280 Norma brass. I had found through pressure testing I would start to see some expansion around 65000 plus a little. So I measure all my heads one at a time as I work up loads. Here is load data for my case and rifle. Capacity is 82.2gr water. OAL 3.4" Powders tried H335, 4320 and IMR4895. 4895 gave best results and choosen as standard All loads are IMR 4895 Bullet Charge Velocity 350Speer 68 2400 67 2385 Most Accurate 66 2365 65 2350 300 Hawk 70 2570 Accurate 69 2555 68 2525 400Hawk 67 2205 66 2190 65 2160 Accurate We found the 400PT too long used up to much case. 340 Woodleigh IMR 4064 68.5 2435 68 2430 MOA 67.5 2420 67 2410 66.5 2405 66 2395 65 2375 64 2360 63 2340 As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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thanks  | |||
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If you will drop me a note at mjpetrov@acsalaska.net I'll send you an article I wrote on building a .400 Whelen. I've been loaning out my reamer to others who want to build a .400 Whelen. | |||
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Michael, if you would send a copy to ramrod340@hotmail.com. I've got bits and pieces of your articles. In part they got my interest up into pulling out my reamer and building the 411 I really wanted when I built the 416. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Here is the link to the .400 Whelen article: http://www.z-hat.com/smashing_the_headspace_myth.htm | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Wildcats And Their Development .411 or .416 for necked up 30/06?
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