Cartridges that should've been.

02 January 2007, 19:15

Actually the Winchester short action is a perfect size for the "x57" cartridges. Winchester put a block in the back of the magazine for the 308 class cartridges. Without the block it allows loaded lengths of a bit over 3".

02 January 2007, 20:27

bartsche

quote:
Originally posted by papaschmud:
quote:
Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by papaschmud:
The x57 rounds are still good cartridges, but '08 cartridges come in more handy packages.

bartsche: Man, how do you contain all that arrogance? You came off as both an ass and a blathering fool all in one sentence.

Do you have anything to add other than a empty putdown?

I yeild to your superiority

roger

02 January 2007, 22:31

Cheechako

papa

The Bartsche is a big kid and certainly doesn't need me to defend him. But I always find his posts interesting and informed. (The fact that I agree with him 99% of the time may have something to do with that)

But, c'mon, there's no call for your personal comments. This Forum is just a bunch of good-ol-boys talking about guns and bullets and, like most Forums, is probably 50% BS anyway.

JMHO

Ray

03 January 2007, 00:00

papaschmud

quote:
Originally posted by bartsche:
quote:
Originally posted by papaschmud:
quote:
Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by papaschmud:
The x57 rounds are still good cartridges, but '08 cartridges come in more handy packages.

bartsche: Man, how do you contain all that arrogance? You came off as both an ass and a blathering fool all in one sentence.

Do you have anything to add other than a empty putdown?

I yeild to your superiority roger

Still no facts, no coherent argument. Just a snotty, contentless, off topic retort.

03 January 2007, 00:05

papaschmud

quote:
Originally posted by Cheechako:

But I always find his posts interesting and informed.

I completely agree. That's why his first response to me was so surprising.

All I ever ask for a coherent argument. What he was implying in his first post was that anyone who thought as I do was ignorant. That kind of nonsense does no one any good. IMO

03 January 2007, 01:30

CMcDermott

quote:

The 300 Savage was the very first case used by Frankford Arsenal when they first started exploring a new "light rifle" cartridge in 1945. They used commercial brass loaded with GI bullets to test different powders for velocity and pressures. The case eventually evolved into the 7.62 x 51, and 308 Winchester.

Actually wasn't there recently an article published that quoted details from Army documents that say the 308 is actually based off the 7.5x54 MAS round, not the 300 Savage?

03 January 2007, 01:56

Cheechako

CM

Never heard of that. The development of the 7.62 x 51 and 308 W is pretty well documented. The various iterations of the case, from the 300 Savage to the final product, are in many collections (mine for one). The idea was to develop a new cartridge that would replace both the 30-06 and the 30 Carbine and to combine the carbine and the Garand into one new "Light Rifle". One goal was to have a world-wide standard that would be adopted by all NATO countries.

Several other countries were working in the same direction although most preferred a smaller caliber such as 22, 25, or 27. But because of the dominance of the U.S. after WW II the 30 caliber was the eventual winner even though it was probably not the best choice. Even while the 7.62 was being developed our own Govt was also working to develop a smaller caliber cartridge & rifle and the big shots had to squelch the idea lest the 30 be compromised. But, we all know that in the end the 22 won out anyway.

maybe the 7.5x54 MAS was the basis for a cartridge being considered by other NATO countries??

Ray

Ray

03 January 2007, 03:16

nordrseta

quote:
quote:
The 300 Savage was the very first case used by Frankford Arsenal when they first started exploring a new "light rifle" cartridge in 1945. They used commercial brass loaded with GI bullets to test different powders for velocity and pressures. The case eventually evolved into the 7.62 x 51, and 308 Winchester.
Actually wasn't there recently an article published that quoted details from Army documents that say the 308 is actually based off the 7.5x54 MAS round, not the 300 Savage?

I saw that too, in Handloader or Rifle, IIRC. Otherwise, the role played by the 300 Savage in the development of the 7.62x51 NATO has been pretty well accepted over time.

08 January 2007, 11:31

375-06JDJ

this will start a fight, but it should have been 375-06 improved instead of 35 whelen. Not trying to step on any toes. wk

09 January 2007, 17:05

jeffeosso

375,
heh, good thought, but townsen whelen "invented" it in 358 ... the "Better" solution would have been the, oh, I don't know, 9,3-06... no, wait that was done already

in all seriousness, all of the big30s off the 06 case are pretty darn good.

jeffe

10 January 2007, 12:27

rp15oryx

The 38/45 Clerke was a good response to the need for a 38 calibre lead bullet platform for the 1911, but it has a few inherent problems. One of them is the short neck which will often hold the bullets with less authority than ideal, especially with the single wide lube groove commercial bullets that I find the most convenient. The time will come for a 38/45 WinMag. Not that I feel a need for more power, but the longer neck will give better bullet hold.

I haven't seen anything on this round for a long time, and certainly no such longer neck idea. Anyone played with this?

10 January 2007, 22:07

boom stick

416 howell...(years ago!)

but the 411 and 416 ruger will fill that niche

11 January 2007, 01:40

Jimno2506

quote:
Originally posted by STW_fan:
17 machIV

I think Remington calls it the 17 Fireball. I can't wait to try one.

Jim

11 January 2007, 09:51

Idaho Sharpshooter

How 'bout a 9,3 on the Improved 8x68S? Or a 358SAUM? Even a 9,3RUM!

Rich

14 January 2007, 08:15

jeffeosso

Boomy,
Ken told me he liked the AR "Better" due to cheap brass.. and slightly larger cases... hopefully it's a TO BE

14 January 2007, 08:47

ireload2

quote:
Originally posted by Cheechako:
CM

Never heard of that. The development of the 7.62 x 51 and 308 W is pretty well documented. The various iterations of the case, from the 300 Savage to the final product, are in many collections (mine for one). The idea was to develop a new cartridge that would replace both the 30-06 and the 30 Carbine and to combine the carbine and the Garand into one new "Light Rifle". One goal was to have a world-wide standard that would be adopted by all NATO countries.

Several other countries were working in the same direction although most preferred a smaller caliber such as 22, 25, or 27. But because of the dominance of the U.S. after WW II the 30 caliber was the eventual winner even though it was probably not the best choice. Even while the 7.62 was being developed our own Govt was also working to develop a smaller caliber cartridge & rifle and the big shots had to squelch the idea lest the 30 be compromised. But, we all know that in the end the 22 won out anyway.

maybe the 7.5x54 MAS was the basis for a cartridge being considered by other NATO countries??

Ray

Ray

It seems the .308 is nothing but a modernized version of the 7.65 Mauser......

20 January 2007, 00:40

Karoo

How about an 8mm in a 300 Win/ 338 WinMag case?
Will allow slightly heavier bullets such as 200 to 225gr at respectable velocities.
www.graaffreinetsafaris.co.za

27 January 2007, 22:33

TC1

The coolest cartridge that never was?

.338 H&H

Terry

27 January 2007, 22:43

nordrseta

quote:
The coolest cartridge that never was?

.338 H&H

Neat. Is this a mockup or have you a rifle so chambered? Details, man, details!

27 January 2007, 22:49

Cheechako

quote:
Originally posted by ireload2:It seems the .308 is nothing but a modernized version of the 7.65 Mauser......

Ireload2

I think it's safe to say that every cartridge used today is a moderized version of one that was first developed in the 19th Century.

Ray

27 January 2007, 23:22

TC1

quote:
Originally posted by nordrseta:
quote:
The coolest cartridge that never was?

.338 H&H
Neat. Is this a mockup or have you a rifle so chambered? Details, man, details!

It was a brain storm that lead to nothing. My load software say's it'll fall about 75FPS below a winmag. I was all ready to do it, but lack of time, money and other projects keeps getting in the way.

Terry

28 January 2007, 03:58

bartsche

6.5X41, 95gr Fmj.abriviated Bt. bullet, .Duraluminum cases, full and semi auto, 5 lb. squad grunt w/ muzzle brake and 11,lb. light MG w/muzzle brake and other recoil devise.

A long time ago!

28 January 2007, 17:43

ScudRunner

quote:
Originally posted by nordrseta:
The world still needs a 25-08 donchathink?

No, the 25WSSM is the way to go!

28 January 2007, 20:13

jeffeosso

quote:
Originally posted by Cheechako:
quote:
Originally posted by ireload2:It seems the .308 is nothing but a modernized version of the 7.65 Mauser......

Ireload2

I think it's safe to say that every cartridge used today is a moderized version of one that was first developed in the 19th Century.

Ray

can't say I agree, though I can say that a man would be well armed with a 12gax45/70 cape gun and a 8MM mauser bolt gun

28 January 2007, 20:14

jeffeosso

quote:
Originally posted by Karoo:
How about an 8mm in a 300 Win/ 338 WinMag case?
Will allow slightly heavier bullets such as 200 to 225gr at respectable velocities.
www.graaffreinetsafaris.co.za

been around probably since 20 mins after the 338 was released

the 8mmPMM - Poor man's magnum

31 January 2007, 15:30

Jacobite

I will jump in on the .25 WSM instead of the .25 WSSM.
When the WSM's came out I swore if they made a .25 I would get one.

02 February 2007, 05:57

mr rigby

the 8mm Kvale instead of the 338 Winchester, a rebated, shortened 300 H&H brass to fit in a standard M98 receiver, and that gave good velocity for moose hunting

02 February 2007, 07:51

bartsche

quote:
Originally posted by mr rigby:
the 8mm Kvale instead of the 338 Winchester, a rebated, shortened 300 H&H brass to fit in a standard M98 receiver, and that gave good velocity for moose hunting

That's interesting!

I built a similar wildcat.

It was a long necked 8mm X .425 WR X 2.5" The idea was to rechamber 8mm mod. 98s and come up with something with a little more umpph than an 8mm-06. Problem was that all the rebated .425 Westley Richard cases I could get were just a little too soft.

roger

03 February 2007, 19:41

45otto

quote:

Posted 21 December 2006 21:54 Hide Post
How about the 30x57 instead of the 308?

How about anything but the 308 case! Under powered for any exsisting bullet. The x57 case is better! Our military should have gone with the 30x57 from the start. Hindsight is paramount to future development. BLAH BLAH BLAH