Ladies and Gentlemen:

I am interested in building either an 8x57 Ackley Improved or an 8mm-06 Ackley Improved, using a 1908 Brazilian Mauser action. The rifle will be used primarily as an African plains game gun.

I did a fairly extensive search on this forum, but could not find much in the way of loading data for these two cartridges.

Does anyone have any loading data that they could share with me?

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Chris

Both the Hornady and Sierra manuals give a lot of loads for the 8mm/06. Ackley says to use that data, increased by 5%, for the 8/06 AI. I would think that the same would apply for the 8x57 Ackley.

Ray

hi ya yale. I have a 8mm-06 in a k.kale w/29" barrel. It pushes a 185gr rem pspcl at 2850 with a med load of imr4064. this was an in the middle load. Like cheechako says, ackley says to bump it up by 5%. I'm thinking of kicking mine up a notch, But I've already built a 8mm-300 win mag. pushes the same bullet @3250 with a med. load. I also throated the chamber by .150". Ireally like it. Gotta go get some coffee. Later.Dave

The 8-06 is a fantastic cartridge. It is the one cart in the 06 line that gives the most. A bullet at 200 grs, sd .274 and easily gives you 2800fps.

A 30-06 will do the same speed, but with a lighter bullet.
A .338-06 will go faster with that bulllet weight, but lack SD and BC.

An improoved version will give you even more!

Dear Mr. Fossdal:

Do you have any 8mm-06 and/or 8mm-06 Ackley loading data that you could share?

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

This may not be any help to you but I have an 8mm/06 AI. I had a VZ24 that was pretty accurate and all that. I reshaped the stock and mounted a Williams receiver sight-leaving the original military front sight on. I ended up with a very ugly yet extremely graceful and handy rifle. I then had a local gunsmith punch it out to the AI. It was/is still very, very accurate. I painted the whole thing with bow hunter's camo paints. It is as rugged and dependable as they come and it is one of my favorite rifles-yet I have never killed a critter with it. I have only shot 220 gr. Hornady bullets through it which I think was a mistake-58 grains of IMR 4350 only gave me 2400 fps and primers were cratering. Time to back off! I think with a slightly lighter bullet and maybe a different powder a guy could do better but in my rifle with those components that's the way it is-about what you'd expect from a 30-06. Still it is one of my favorite rifles and I'd love to tell you about the wild hunt I had on Mt. St. Helens with that rifle. One of these days-when I'm done fooling with these other rifles I've got laying around-I will get back to that 8mm, load it with Nosler partitions and turn it into a dragon slayer.

If you really want a AI go for it. In the 06 based cases you will get about 1% velocity for each 4% powder. You will see 35-50FPS. People seeing huge gains are gaining them via pressure.

Build an 8mm-06 load to around 65,000 like the 270. Percentage gain on the 8x57 will be a little more maybe 1 for 3. Again in a good rifle load the parent up to the higher pressure and go.

338 hawk
225 gr @ 2800
281 s.d.

358 hawk
250 gr @ 2760
279 s.d.

http://www.z-hat.com/HawkContents.htm

Yale I have a std 8mm-06. I have found W760 and IMR 4350 both to be good powders. The 175 gr Sierra bullet holds together if yoy want a light bullet. The 200 gr Speer or the 200 gr Partion both work very well on game . Loaded to pressures you would find in a 270 this is powerfull round. In my opinion the 220 gr slugs are better left for the larger 8mm cartridges but they are effective at closer ranges.

I wouldn't do an A.I. on an old Mauser action for several reasons. Been there done that. You will have feeding issues, and as I remember you lose one round capacity in the magazine. Then there is the pressure item, which these actions were not designed for.

Honestly, I wouldn't do an A.I. on anything, as I see no reason for it. The straight walls with little or no taper actually removes one of the important design features of the parent cartridges, which was there for a very important reason - namely proper and reliable feeding. The designers of these original cartridges thought of the entire equation, (cartridge & action) where those with the brilliant idea of blown out cases to get 1% to 2% improved velocity seem to ignore the feeding issues, until they have the rifle assembled, then discover - oh s--t, this sucker jams!!!

Either the standard 8x57 or the 8x06 will be plenty good, and you can use either on the Mauser, and there ain’t no better combo for feeding than the 8x57 on a ’98 Mauser action. But if you need (or want) more then I would go to a magnum cartridge, using the 338 WM, or 300 WM, or the 308 Norma as the base brass.

My first choice for 8mm magnum is the 323 Hollis, built on a Ruger stainless action. There are plenty of 300 WMs and 7mm RMs out there that need to be removed from the gene pool, and made into a real magnum. Since you will be limited to three rounds in the magazine with the A.I. anyway, you might as well fill it up with magnums. The Ruger action will be perfect, requiring no modifications, and actually cost less than modifying the old military Mauser. Incidentally, the 8mmx300WM will result in a cartridge too long to fit into the magazine of the Ruger, unless you seat the bullets deeply. Either the 338 brass or the 308 Norma brass will work just right. The 375 Ruger brass will work too, but may be a little trickie with the feeding, since there is little body taper in that round – it’s fat at the shoulders.

Again, IMO none of these wildcats or A.I. are well suited to the military Mauser, especially considering there are plenty of Ruger actions available. Others will probably disagree, and that’s OK. It’s their money. For my money, I wouldn’t do it again.

Just my two cents, based on experience and several "wish I hadn't done that", and sometimes "well looks like I got it right this time".

KB

Dear KB:

I have a 7x57 AI on an 1898 Brno that with a little rail and magazine work feeds fast, slow, upside down, well, you get the picture. Also, I have a 1908 Brazilian opened up and adjusted for a magnum case; maybe that 8mm-338 Win. Mag. similar to your 323 Hollis will be its cartridge. It just takes some time, a meticulous nature and patience.

In my experience the Ackley design benefits outweigh the negatives. One big one appears to be a real reduction in bolt thrust with the straight sided case gripping the chamber walls and transferring the energy to the barrel chamber instead of to the bolt face, lugs and receiver recesses. This conclusion arises from actual experimentation on my part and not conjecture.

Look at the 308 Winchester, 243 Winchester, etc. All straight sided, but without 40 degree shoulders. Next, the 300 Win. Mag. and its bretheren all have Ackley inspiration. Lazzeroni and Weatherby rounds all come to mind, too. Lastly, the new 375 Ruger with a 30 degree shoulder and little body taper just like the Dakota cartridges, the Winchester Short Magnums and a plethora of new factory cartridges, all look like Mr. Ackley's designs.

For instance I have two reamer prints in front of me, one a 35 Newton AI with a shoulder diameter of .512" and a head diameter of .5288" with a taper of approximately .016". The other print is the new 375 Ruger with a .516" shoulder diameter and a .5347" head diameter with a taper of approximately .018". Not much difference, the 375 Ruger looks just like an Ackleyed Newton.

The factory rifles are all made to feed and fire them.

Am I missing something, or are all the new designs pretty much adaptations of P. O. Ackley and Charles Newton?

Why go back in time? I restored a 1925 Pierce Arrow with a 1930 Franklin air-cooled six cylinder airplane engine in it 25 years ago. It was and is a wonderful car, unfortunately not mine, but would I use it as a daily driver today, no we have better automobiles presently.

So, why use an old design?

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Chris, you make very good points. Frankly, they are so good, that you have taken all the argument out of me. That may be a first.

Cheers
KB

Dear KB:

Thanks, but now I'll argue the other side of the equation concerning the Mauser 1898 action.

I think that the 1898 Mauser action is the finest mass produced bolt action rifle action ever made in my opinion. I believe that Paul von Mauser perfected it in 1898, and most everything that I have seen mass produced since doesn't have all the safety features and design thoughtfulness. I am not including the very fine small production bolt action variants like the Heym, Borden, etc. of which I have no first hand experience, but am basing my opinion on owning and using most of the mass produced bolt action rifles over the last 30 years.

As to the original steel used in the 1898, proper heat treatment, case depth, set back issues and what not, that is an argument for another day. I am still experimenting with my old Brno as to set back, etc., and will probably blow it up purposely early next year. Then I will know what failed, and have the steel assayed at that point with Carpenter Steel in Reading, Pennsylvania. I have a few friends there.

So, now we have a really old design which I think is the best. What is your opinion?

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis