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Originally posted by jackfish:
Ah, but it does have other load data on it.

http://www.geocities.com/bw_99835/375Taylor.htm

And you're getting over 2600 fps with 300 grain bullets with the 376 Steyr?

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Originally posted by steelrain:
So you ARE over published velocities with your 225 grain at 2950 fps and your 300 grain at 2525 this is a correction of jeffe's to point out where jackfish misquotes, yet again fps loads. You exceed both Hornady and Hodgdon published figures.

by a WHOOPING 1% !!! I've had FACTORY loads that do it by a greater margin. Chronographed 300 wsm, factory gun, factory ammo, sighted it in, checked the velocities,,,, wow, just like ALL the huntin' mags say... it's 20-50 fps than published. any comment there?

let's get back to reality, steelrain. *I* am the one that said 2559 was too hot for my gun.. MONTHS ago. In fact, 2525 was what I settled on. funny, you are the one screaming to exceed 2500 with a 375 hh, which hornady clearly states, stop at 2500... which side of it do you want. You are the one screaming for the 375 to be loaded as hot as a 375 weatherby.. [b]

I bet you exceed published
powder charges as well.

[b] another bet you'ld loose. sorry, pal.

Cite one source that recommends exceeding published velocities or charges.
your load of 4350 is FIVE grains over the book for hornady...That's a 4% OVER CHARGE. what's your excuse? Oh, you picked a source that had a warmer load.... that's right, you CHOOSE that one. Allow someone else the same CHOICE

I don't exceed charges, even with my 257 roberts or 45LC. those two even run at PUBLISHED loadsm and it's well known that they should be loaded to +P. But, then again, here you go, telling every one that their DEVELOPED loads are hot hot... uh huh... pick say, speer 9 and speer 13... look at the changes in load and velocities...

so, what you are saying is that all loads will be perfectly on the published numbers? All will be lower? How about some will be faster? hmmm, interesting...
speer 11 STATISTICAL DEVIATION tells you all loads have a chance of being HIGHER than the average posted that is, unless of course, you are only quoting your HIGHEST speeds, rather than averages. hornady light mags, jackfish and his 2100 fps 45/70 loads and 375HH loads. In fact, sir, velocity is NOT a main consideration in reloading books.. accuracy is.
Still looks like there is enough steel rain to go around. yep, from your loads

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I never said that published data and chronographs weren't valuable in load development. Primer condition, sticky extraction and other "classic" excessive pressure signs can be indicators of problems, but should be considered with a comprehensive evaluation of the load and conditions.

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Uranus,
I am loading 62 grains, NOT 68 grains...

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60.0 2471 av
60.5 2491 av
61 2529 av *** chosen load to develop *** casehead .00275" new brass
61.5 2538 av WARM casehead .003" new brass
62 2559 av HOT IN NEW BRASS, very warm in once fired. casehead .00325.. STOPPED too much for me

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Winchester M70 Classic Stainless 375 H&H Magnum
300 grain Sierra Boattails seated to 3.6" and crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp die
Winchester brass
Federal 215M primer
74 grains H4350 START
81 grains H4350 MAXIMUM
2632 fps
Source: Hodgdon #27

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first supossion
400 gr at 2100 is enough to match the 450/400... NO... you ahve a HUGE sectional density mismatch.. the 400 gr 458 bullet is great for bears and such, but it's sd is liek .25 or something.. the bullet will come apart

second
45/70 in ANY GUN will not give you 2150... that's max for a 450 alaskan in most guns, though i've shot the 450 at 2250 with moly coated bullets... still sticky, went back to 2150

third
bullets of a lower SD just come apart at close ranges or when hiting hard bone. In fact, EVERY 400 gr bullet we've tried, sp of course, comes apart at under 50 yards, in 200# pigs.

barnes/pther soilds..
you pay hell trying to get them to feed, unless you cut 10-20 grains off the nose

forth
the brownign 71 is a TOUGH action... and the best one i've seen failed, mechancically, in africa... load gate broke then the sight slipped off. this gun has been hunted HARD in texas... just wasn't up to the task.

would I hunt with a 45/70 lever gun, IF IT WAS THE ONLY CHOICE? yep... you betcha.... would i be anything like my 50th choice? NO... I would take a 303 with solids long before.

jeffe

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first supossion
400 gr at 2100 is enough to match the 450/400... NO... you ahve a HUGE sectional density mismatch.. the 400 gr 458 bullet is great for bears and such, but it's sd is liek .25 or something.. the bullet will come apart
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A 400 grain .458" bullet has a sectional density of .272. I would like to see you make a 400 grain Barnes Original or Swift A-Frame "come apart".

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second
45/70 in ANY GUN will not give you 2150... that's max for a 450 alaskan in most guns, though i've shot the 450 at 2250 with moly coated bullets... still sticky, went back to 2150
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That is funny, there are at least documented cases here where particular 45-70 guns achieved 2150 fps with a 400 grain bullet. My W&H 1871 Buffalo Classic has a 32" barrel and had no problem reaching 2150 fps. A 24" barreled Ruger #1/3 or Siamese Mauser 45-70 loaded to 50,000 CUP and a 2.75" COAL will exceed 2200 fps with a 400 grain bullet.

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third
bullets of a lower SD just come apart at close ranges or when hiting hard bone. In fact, EVERY 400 gr bullet we've tried, sp of course, comes apart at under 50 yards, in 200# pigs.
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There is nothing inherent in a relatively low sectional density, by itself, that would contribute to a bullet coming apart. There are plenty of well-constructed 400 grain .458" bullets that are up to the task on heavy muscle and bone at short range. You obviously haven't tried them all.

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barnes/pther soilds..
you pay hell trying to get them to feed, unless you cut 10-20 grains off the nose
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Who would use them in this application? So who cares?

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forth
the brownign 71 is a TOUGH action... and the best one i've seen failed, mechancically, in africa... load gate broke then the sight slipped off. this gun has been hunted HARD in texas... just wasn't up to the task.
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More of your anecdotal evidence that does not prove a thing. There are many guns that fail mechanically. But I will guarantee there are a lot of M71s out there still going strong after all their owners could dish out.

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would I hunt with a 45/70 lever gun, IF IT WAS THE ONLY CHOICE? yep... you betcha.... would i be anything like my 50th choice? NO... I would take a 303 with solids long before.
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I guess I really don't care what you would use. If you look at the original post starting this thread you will see that it was about whether not a 45-70 can reach 2100 fps with a 400 grain bullet. It has been demonstrated here that it can. That a 400 grain .458" bullet does not have the sectional density of a 400 grain .411" or .408" bullet does not mean that it will come apart, it would seem that bullet construction has more to do with that than sectional density.

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jackfish...
1: what did i do to piss you off? Nothign that I can recall. Yet, I'll be the bigger person and not start a war

2: Rob is a friend of mine, and I related EXPERIENCE in the field, with a LARGER case than he asked about.

3: And, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not load a non-flatpoint 458 (that means swift aframe or any barnes DESIGNED for that impact speed) into a tube feed 45/70 at 2150. You could have an interesting result.

3a: this is why you mill the POINT of the bullet, so it doesn't impact the primer of the next one.

4: low SD IS bad in and of itself.. which is WHY they make premium bullets.

5: Who would use a solid? DUH!, it's cape buffalo hunting here, you would just about HAVE to have solids in the mag

6: I have rung every bit of performance out of the larger 450 alaskan until it was sticky. That's all that there is, there aint no more.

Rob,
Did i answer your original questions the first time?
jeffe

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jeffe,

1. Who is pissed off? I just challenged points that you made that I don't agree with. I'm not looking for war either. And with the evident difference of opinion/experience there probably is no middle ground.

2. I don't know you or Rob. I'm just challenging your generalizations and anecdotes. I probably would not use a 45-70 for Cape Buffalo, and if I did I would not use a 400 grain bullet. I also agree that a 45-70 with a 400 grain bullet at 2100 fps does not exactly duplicate the 450/400 Jeffery loading. However, I would contend that one would not see much difference in killing ability between a 45-70 Siamese Mauser loaded with a 400 grain Barnes X-Bullet at 2100 fps and the storied 450/400 Jeffery with the 400 grain load that it was introduced with. Actually, the 45-70 loaded such is probably superior to the original 450/400 Jeffery.

3. Who said anything about loading a non-flat point bullet in a tube amgazine gun. I was specifically referring to single shots and bolts. I wouldn't load a pointed bullet in my Marlin 1895 at any speed.

3a. You don't need to mill the point of the bullet if using a single or bolt.

4. Relatively low sectional density is not desirable for penetration given similar bullet construction and configuration. However, it can be made up for somewhat by the use of properly constructed bullets. A 400 grain Barnes X-Bullet will out penetrate most conventionally constructed 400 grain bullets; it behaves more like a conventional bullet with a .300 SD than one with a .272 SD.

5. While it is true that many hunters use solids, some in combination with soft points, it is not a requirement to use solids for Cape Buffalo if one uses other kinds of properly constructed bullets. So, NO one does not HAVE to use solids to properly take Cape Buffalo.

6. That you have experienced excessive pressures in a 450 Alaskan (in a lever gun I presume) is purely anecdotal and has nothing to do with the 45-70 reaching 2150 fps in single shot and bolt rifles. We all know that rifles display individual traits, another 450 Alaskan M71 may well shoot 400 grain bullets 2200 fps without a hitch.

So I think your friend should temper your responses with evidence to the contrary here, in other experience offered and in references elsewhere.

My Marlin 1895 has been modified to cycle and chamber a 2.7" COAL using the October 1998 Precision Shooting M.L. McPherson article as a reference. I have loaded a 405 grain bullet to 2100 fps in my Marlin, but it is still effective and much more comfortable to shoot at 1950 fps, which is the load I offered. Hence, with a 2.7"+ COAL and a single shot or bolt rifle, 2150 fps can be achieved in the 45-70 with a 400 grain bullet, which is the main point of the original question. So again, several people offering that the 45-70 can be loaded with a 400 grain bullet to 2150 fps and then you saying it can't be done.

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jackfish,
let's get to the point.

dont point out "my anecdotal evidence" as being faulty, while somehow yours is better. That's what I am irritated about. i have worked with this ONE 450, and 3 or 4 45/70s... and guess what? you start crossing 40 k and tehy get sticky.

now, the 450 alaskan is a bigger case than the 45/70. and as such, as the SAME PRESSURE will (generally) push a bullet faster than a 45/70. this is a siamese mauser, for christ sake.

btw, should you hit game with your 1950-2000fps 405 rems under fifty yards you will experience bullet failure. the game may fall, in the US.. but not a bullet to point at big, heavy, dangerous game.

jeffe

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jeffe,

The point is that the original inquiry,

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One poster states that with a properly throated gun and by loading the bullet way out you can get to the 2100 FPS level. I'd like to know if any one here has actually done this successfully and if you'd publish your loads. Thanks-Rob
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was addressed in the affirmative by posters other than you.

Hence, it is not just my anecdotal reports but that of several other posters as well. Of course, you are joined as well by others as being skeptical.

Some posters, including you, sought to limit certain points to lever action rifles when it is evident that such an application is ultimately and better achieved with single shot or bolt action rifles operating at 50,000 CUP.

Although the original intent was to equate the 45-70 with the 450/400 Jeffery as adequate for Cape Buffalo, nothing in the final inquiry limited the sought after results to bullets capable of taking dangerous game. However, you seem bent on limiting your discussion to bullets you deem as unworthy. I never said the 405 grain Remington was a worthy dangerous game bullet. I suggested that the 400 grain Barnes X-Bullet and the 400 grain Swift A-Frame might be. But of course, you never addressed those points directly.

If you don't believe those here who have reached 2100 fps with a 400 grain bullet in the 45-70, maybe you will believe Hodgdon's data for the Ruger #1/3 and Siamese Mauser:
45-70, 24" barrel, 400 grain bullet at 2.54" COAL, 2108 fps, 49,100 CUP.

Seat the bullet in a properly throated single shot or bolt rifle to a 2.75" COAL and it is clear that a 45-70 400 grain bullet load limited to 50,000 CUP will exceed 2100 fps. And again if the bullet were a 400 grain Barnes X-Bullet such a load would be at least as effective as the original 450/400 Jeffery load deemed adequate for Cape Buffalo.

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jackfish....
I think you push you loads further than i would

jeffe

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jeffe,

When one does not realize potential they are therefore necessarily limited. All that I have written considers the safe operating pressure of the firearms involved.

You have not addressed the main points of my argument. I resolved the matter in my mind. Perhaps you have as well.

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jackfish,

to misquote someone

there are OLD reloaders. there are BOLD reloaders. but, there are no OLD and BOLD reloaders.

resolve away.. i am unconcerned, unless i am close to you at the range.

and, the reason there ARE premimum bullets is to overcome the SD issue with light for caliber bullets.

or.. the 500 nitro would just chunk a 500 gr barnes x (if it existed)

<ignore ON>
jeffe

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jeffe,

That was a cute misquote. But I am 50 years old and have been loading the 45-70 for 26 years. The 1895 that has been on that entire journey with me has over 4000 rounds through it and shows no ill effects. But why should it? All the loads run through it have not exceeded the safe operating pressure of that rifle. With the exception of the load I have developed for the Marlin 1895, modified to cycle and chamber a 2.7" COAL, all of the loads I mentioned are published loads from reputable sources. Or don't you trust Hodgdon and Lyman? Perhaps you don't know how to evaluate work up loads when developing them for the 45-70? Why are you not challenging your friend Rob, who agrees in the proper rifle the 45-70 can reach 2100 fps with a 400 grain bullet and is willing to try such a load using a properly constructed bullet on Cape Buffalo?

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A similar thread, don't you think? You make claims, someone challenges them and provides support for that challenge, and you eventually resort to name calling and obfuscation. Your actions are repeated here.

Well, I think I may finally be worn out on this one, just don't say something I don't agree with, and you won't hear from me.

[ 09-04-2003, 23:06: Message edited by: jackfish ]

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Originally posted by jackfish:

[b]There is nothing inherent in a relatively low sectional density, by itself, that would contribute to a bullet coming apart. There are plenty of well-constructed 400 grain .458" bullets that are up to the task on heavy muscle and bone at short range. You obviously haven't tried them all.

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by Jeffeosso
jackfish....
I think you push you loads further than i would

jeffe [/qb]

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first, back to the TOPIC
Can the 300wsm to 375 match 375 HH (factory)
yep... sure could, wildcat and all, look up jamison and email himAgain, you never read and comprehend what is written. I never said the 375 WSM could not match the 375 H&H. I did say that the 375 WSM is more likely to achieve 375 H&H ballistics than the 376 Steyr when each is loaded to their potential. Maybe you need a refresher in reading comprehesion?

can the 376 steyr match the FACTORY 375 HH..
yep, sure can. loads right from the hornady book. right THEREAgreed. But from all the information considered, not just what you select, it is clear that the 376 Steyr cannot match the 375 H&H when each is loaded to their potential.

what's factory on the 375 HH?
300gr at 2500 fpsSorry I don't "factory", my load fully documented as to its appropriateness, 300 grain at 2632 fps.

Let's see... you STILL act like the guy caught pointing a gun to the side at a range.I wouldn't know about that, I've never done it. But it is apparent you must know what it feels like

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