I just necked the .300 WSM up to .375" and wondered if anyone had load data for such a round. It should be very close to the .375 Heavy Express Magnum (unfortunately, I'm having a hard time finding loads for this cartridge).

Thanks,
Lee Martin
www.singleactions.com

Lee,

I believe I have some 375 express mag. load data. I'll dig it up for you. How is your 458 and 475 cartridges coming along? I've got some you maybe interesed in.

You can always reach me at bigboredan@yahoo.com

Dan

Dan....I just finished the .450 Bonecrusher and it works (haven't chronographed it yet). No case setback, extraction isn't a problem, but recoil is fierce. I should have an article posted within the next month. The .475 Kodiak reamers and dies are done and the barrel blank is on order from Pac Nor. Any info on the .375 wildcat would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Lee Martin
www.singleactions.com

375 jamison is the same thing ...
85 gr water

376 steyr
80 gr

i get 375 hh balistics out of 376 steyr

jeffe

Lee....I have a 9.53 Lazzeroni HellCat which is the Lazzeroni short-Patriot necked up to .375". I will look up some loads when I get home tonight....the capacity of my HellCat should be just a bit more than your 375wsm...my case is a bit bigger but the brass is also quite a bit thicker. I think you will find the powders of choice are RL15 and Varget.

jeffe said:

quote:

---

i get 375 hh balistics out of 376 steyr

---

Maybe you meant "near"? The 375 H&H Magnum yields 75-200 fps more than the 376 Steyr depending on bullet weight.

[ 08-27-2003, 00:37: Message edited by: jackfish ]

Jackfish,
I meant what i said...

375hh = 300 grain at 2500 fps (you can reload hotter, but that's pushing 375 weatherby)

*MY* 376 beats that with starting 300 gr loads.

yep, you can reload the 375hh hotter.. sure can, larger case... but 375 balistics is 300 at 2500fps. and I get that... 24" barrel.

If you like, do a search on the big bore forums for 376, and the range report should be there.

again, I said 375 balistics.. not near.

oh, yeah, as far as pressure goes, i also posted case expansion, i believe... and it was LESS than the hornady factory heavy loads... from both my gun and from a prohunter.

I think we've been round and round before.. my data is posted... when you get a 376, I'll share my loads with you, and you can test for yourself.

thanks
<flame off>

In fact, here's Eric's published data on a 19" barrel.. and he gets over 2300 from it

http://www.african-hunter.com/the__376_steyr.htm

This is a gun *I* have done *MY* work with, Jackfish. I get 375 ballistics from it.

60.0 2471 av
60.5 2491 av
61 2529 av *** chosen load to develop *** casehead .00275" new brass
61.5 2538 av WARM casehead .003" new brass
62 2559 av HOT IN NEW BRASS, very warm in once fired. casehead .00325.. STOPPED too much for me

jeffe

[ 08-27-2003, 01:36: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

It might have been clearer if you had said "I get factory 375 H&H ballistics out of my handloaded 376 Steyr ammo"......but of course there are more than one factory loads for 300gr bullets in the 375 H&H....some of which go up to almost 2600fps.

The Steyr seems like a nice little cartridge

Bill,
yep.. perfectly said....

i get 375hh ballistics from my reloads of my 376... and the loads are not maxed out or even at factory pressure, according to the hogdeon website load data

jeffe

[ 08-27-2003, 02:01: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

So jeffe, you are comparing rather hot 376 Steyr reloads to factory ammo specs for the 375 H&H. I seem to be getting 2630 fps in *MY* 24" barreled 375 H&H with 300 grain Sierras.

Winchester M70 Classic Stainless 375 H&H
300 grain Sierra Boattails seated to 3.6" and crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp die
Winchester brass
Federal 215M primer
74 grains H4350 START
81 grains H4350 MAXIMUM
2632 fps, 49,500 CUP
Source: Hodgdon #27

So when you do a reasonable comparison, the 376 Steyr is 75 to 200 fps behind the 375 H&H depending on bullet weight when both are loaded to their potential.

Eric says:

quote:

---

The terminal ballistics of these 300-grain loads should be somewhere between the 9.3x62 and the .375 H&H,...

---

So even Eric is honest enough to admit that the 376 Steyr does not equal the 375 H&H when both are loaded to their potential. Obviously, there is not enough difference between them to make a practical difference in the field. But it can not be said that the 376 Steyr can equal the ballistics of the 375 H&H when both are loaded to their potential.

Regarding the original inquiry, it seems that a 375 WSM would have a better chance of equaling the ballistics of the 375 H&H than the 376 Steyr.

[ 08-27-2003, 20:01: Message edited by: jackfish ]

<sorry to hijack this thread>

TROLL ALERT

<flame ON>

*****WAY HOT LOADS POSTED BY JACKFISH*****

quote:

---

Originally posted by jackfish:
So jeffe, you are comparing rather hot 376 Steyr reloads to factory ammo specs for the 375 H&H.

---

No, Jackfisk, Do not attempt to put YOUR precarious reloading philosphy on me. It's YOU that had never heard
there are old reloaders, and bold reloaders, but there are NO Bold Old reloaders

quote:

---

Originally posted by jackfish:
I seem to be getting 2630 fps in *MY* 24" barreled 375 H&H with 300 grain Sierras.
WAY WAY WAY HOT LOAD ____ DO NOT USE _____
81 grains H4350 MAXIMUM
2632 fps

---

You posted loads are WAY hot and should never be attempted by anyone wishing to reload again. You should be more concerned about someone trying your load and getting hurt than posting it.

Your load is a STRONG overload, about 5% compressed and over 67000 PSI... (quickload estimate, using YOUR numbers) yeah, that's smart... and 2k over MAX of any round out there. Sure, you are safe... NOT... Hornady doesn't even go that high on their light or heavy mags

Wow, Jackfish, your 375 hh is magic... it beats the 375 dakota, except in the TOTAL max load
http://www.accuratereloading.com/375d.html

As I have shown, unless you wring out the 375, the 376 is a solid running mate for the 375 HH. Get over it, get around it, or just get.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jackfish:
Obviously, there is not enough difference between them to make a practical difference in the field. But it can not be said that the 376 Steyr can equal the ballistics of the 375 H&H when both are loaded to their potential.

---

Uh, huh... when you overload and compress 5%, 67,000 psi, and then try to compare that to a 19" barrel, loaded reasonable, sure.. you are right.. NOT!

quote:

---

Originally posted by jackfish:
Regarding the original inquiry, it seems that a 375 WSM would have a better chance of equaling the ballistics of the 375 H&H than the 376 Steyr.

---

<flame off>

I ran the quickload against the 376 and 375 jamsion and 375 HH.. with 300 grain horndays
guess what?

376 steyr 2538 at est57,700 (68 grains of powder)
375 HH at 2598 at est57,700 (78 grains of powder)
375 Jamison 2557 "" "" (70 grains of powder)

Same barrel length

you get 19fps for 2 grains of powder, or 60 for 10.
SIX feet per second per grain of powder...

and, to bring it back to the subject, there is no effective reason to build a 375jamison, going through the extra expense of custom dies, reamers, no brass stamped, etc, for a round that only give 19 more ft/s for a truely sane load.

It sounds pretty good, till you look at safe reloading practices...

jeffe

[ 08-27-2003, 06:42: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Here's the link to accurate reloadings 375 HH info page...

http://www.accuratereloading.com/375hhmag.html

As you can see, SANE reloaders stay in the low 2500s MAX....

as you can see, getting 2650+ with a 300 grain bullet is like dating a super model....

purely in the realm of fantasy.

jeffe

[ 08-27-2003, 06:40: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

So jeffe , It's OK for you to push your Steyr to the max , but someone with a H&H dare not work up to a somewhat warm load ? Sounds kind of like liberal logic........

The Steyr must be a magic chambering all right..........

Wow! A lot of heat and very little light but back to the original question.

Like I said I have a 9.53 Lazzeroni Hellcat that is the Patriot (30-cal) necked up and here are some of the results I got...but keep several things in mind....(1) the Lazzeroni brass is a lot heavier than the 300WSM brass, (2) the Lazzeroni Patriot will produce about 150fps more than the 300WSM using 180gr bullets, (3) the Lazzeroni action is a McMillan MCR-T which is stronger than either the Model 70 or Rem 700, and (4) Lazzeroni loads typically are loaded to 65,000 to 67,000 psi safely.

Here are some of my results.

The load data Lazzeroni sent with the rifle called for the Fed 210 primer, RL 15 powder and the Nosler Partitons in 260gr and 300gr. I only load for the 300gr....starting load was 60.0gr with a max of 65.0gr with a max velocity of over 2600 fps.

My first attempts were not encouraging as I got signs of pressure at 64.0 grains and the velocity over my Oehler was only 2450 fps.

I switched lots of RL 15 and using a different lot I got 2550 fps using 64.0 grains and no signs of pressure....the only problem was the fellow I got the powder from only had about a pound and could not find that lot anywhere else so I began trying some other powders as suggested by QuikLoad.

LET ME PUT THAT IN CAPITALS AS IT'S IMPORTANT --- A SIMPLE SWITCH IN POWDER LOTS USING THE SAME POWDER GAVE ME AN ADDITIONA 100 FPS AND NO SIGNS OF PRESSURE.

Some of the other powders........RL 19 ---- 73.0 grains maxed out at 2400 fps

I switched primers to CCI 250 for the rest of the tests.

H414 -------70.0 grains maxed at 2450 fps
VN 550 -----68.0 grains maxed at 2480 fps

Varget (w/CCI 250)...... 62.0 gr gave 2450 fps
63.0 gr gave 2480 fps
64.0 gr gave 2525 fps
65.0 gr gave 2575 fps
at this point I'd had enough as the recoil was getting pretty stiff in my lightweight rifle. I eventually settled on 64.0 grains which ran between 2525 fps and 2540 fps and provided about 4300 ftlbs of ME. I sighted this load in to be 1" at 100 yards.

For solids I tried the Barnes 300gr and 63.0gr of Varget gave me 2500 fps but the loads printed high and about 3" to the left at 50 yards so I tried the 300gr Hormany FMJ and 63.0 gr gave 2480 fps but it printed 1.5" high at 50 yards. 62.0 grains gave me 2450 fps and it printed dead-on at 50 yards.

These were the two loads that I took to Africa. A buff at about 50 yards took a Nosler into the chest and dropped in his tracks...becovered bullet weighed about 202 grains which is typical of Partitions...kudu, warthog, zebra,impala, baboons all basically died-in-place. My sable, which I first shot at about 225 yards at a quartering-away angle was shot several times but the 1st shot would have been fatal within a couple of minutes but he was so big I kept shooting as long as I could see him. My leopard needed a 2nd shot as the first (easy) wasn't placed correctly...the 2nd shot took the cat in the front of the chest and exited the rear and basically turned the cat around where he landed dead.

REMINDER --- these loads were for a Lazzeroni Hellcat, not a 375 WSM but if you were to drop 5%-6% from my STARTING LOADS you would probably be OK----remember I said PROBABLY so you need to take this post for what it's worth and at your own risk.

P.S. I did get over 2600 fps with several 300gr bullets but the recoil WAS brutal ....never again and you don't need that much velocity.

Jeffe....just a few observations.

(1) QuikLoad is a nice tool for doing estimations but we all need to remember it's just an estimate.
Just think about my experience with different lots of RL15 everytime you want to believe it 100%. Also, QuikLoad predicted that RL 15 would be the best powder, closely followed by H414 and VN and had Varget a distant 4th when in reality the Varget and selected lot number of RL 15 were the better choices.

(2) Trying to use case-head expansion to measure pressure is, and I mean this in the kindest possible way, a joke. Variations in brass, not only from cartridge to cartridge but from case to case is such that no reliable consistency can be found. Add in these factors....how many times has the case been fired....how many times sized...are you measuring at the same spot each time as brass is rarely perfectly round and consistent in thickness......and how good are you at using a micrometer?

(3)I've ask more than a few very experienced machinist if they felt comfortable trying to measure something as soft and inconsistent as a brass cartridge to more than 3 decimal places.....answer was, in every case NO! I also tried giving them each the same piece of brass and ask them to measure at a place I had marked (all using the same micrometer) and rarely were there more than 1 out of 4 that agreed. Did the same thing with several gunsmiths with similar results....and you show measurements to 5-decimal places so you'll excuse me if I'm a litle (no make that a lot) skepitical of your data and the way you interpret it.

[ 08-27-2003, 17:37: Message edited by: DB Bill ]

jeffe

Hogdons latest data shows the following fastest loads for each case :

H&H-300 gr bullet,2645 fps with 81 gr H4350 at a modest 49500 cup.

Steyr-300 gr bullet , 2410 fps with 62.5 gr Varget at 59.700 psi .

While they used different measurements , I'd speculate the 49500 cup is very comparable to the 59700 psi .

Same barrel length , 24 inch in each case.

These are real world velocities and pressures presumeably taken out of real gun barrels , not a computer simulation .

Case capacity still does count for something .........

[ 08-27-2003, 18:39: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]

DB,
thanks for the feed back... please remember *MY* steyr loads are in a 24" barrel, as opposed to the 19" barrel that hornady used to post the vel on their 2 loadings (2600 fps nominal for both)

Funny how opinions vary, as to case head... and then you have people that read primers...

I can read to 3 places, rather easy, as can anyone else, if you have a dial mic that measures to .0000 (for instance, any caliper that has tenths, hundreds, and thousandths, it's pretty easy to see if it's closer to one tick or the other... 4 places is pretty easy to see, and estimating the last place, that takes practice.

In any event, I feel that anyone can meausure a case to 4 places, and measure it again after being fired, and, if they can subtract, come up with expansion.

Measuring the diameter of a small circle should be a trival exercise, I am certain your machinist friends will agree.

The brass was NEW, unfired, to make darn sure I am on the safest side. This is not fired, necksized, then measured. This FAILS TO SAFE, rather than what does it further expand to.

I can read what I see as the case diameter, take 3 measurements, and average them. then fire them, and repeat.

If you like, we can go to the range together, and I'll be more than happy to demonstrate.

Since I am trained in hard science, I perfer to follow scientific method, and run and experient, document results, and evaluate results. If the results are outside of expectations, then the hypothiesis has to be revised and tried. If they fall within acceptable results, then repeat.

As for quickbooks... (I am kinda laughign here) You might pick up a copy of "cart's of the world" and see how many loads are listed as "from quickload"

Failing back to the Scientific method, if the measurements are taken with the same instrument, then the SAME error is aplied to all samples. Therefore, if you run 3 tests in the software, and have expected results, you can say that the SAME error is applied to the tests.

I load for more than 20 different calibers, and have chronoed my results, to compare with my estimated quickload results. I am a member of a range that I only have to pay for targets, and chronograph LOTS LOTS LOTS of results. Guess what? unless it's an exotic (500 jeffery for example) it's within 5% most of the time, and 10% all of the time. Quickload results, when in error, are ALWAYS faster than the chrono'ed results. Heck, I even chrono what little factory rounds that go down the barrel of my guns... for some surprising results.

So,
My suposition stands..
the 376 matches factory 375 HH balastics, with reasonable loads. I will be more than happy to attend a range session with anyone, demonstrate the method, and allow them to repeat for themselves. In the case of the steyr, I still have some unfired 376 cases, to share.

In the case of the posted 375hh overloads (there IS a reason why weatherby is known as high pressure) this posted has a history of PUSHING loads over max. He even posted data for a 45/70 to run a 400 gr premium bullet at or over 2100 FPS.

Jeffe

SD,
thanks for the data.

While there's NOT a direct translation, 59,000psi is roughly 51,000 cup.

I am using a lower pressure, but close, powder.

I used Jackfish's bullet and seating length.. with a differnt bullet, that load could be safe.. but NOT the longer sierra SPBT...

be glad to have a range day on the matter, as teh proof is in the pudding.

jeffe

Hodgdon does list the exact bullet used in each case . As a matter of fact , they DID use the Sierra boat-tail in the H&H . They used a Swift in the Steyr . Which serves to further muddy the waters . With my .375 . ,I believe it would be nearly impossible to get enough 4350 powder in the case to max out pressures .......

jeffe,

Maybe you should not be so quick to jump to conclusions. I developed my load from published Hodgdon data, it is not "HOT" as was pointed out, and you seem to be the one to have exceeded published data. So who is "bold"?

In addition, your 376 Steyr loads were originally presented in what could be deemed an unacceptable and incomplete manner. Maybe you should practice what you preach and do a little research before you blurt out that someone's loads are dangerous. My load could be dangerous in someone else's rifle, but then I list mine as a MAXIMUM, and even novice reloaders should be able to figure out what that means and how that load should be approached.

So, next time when you present questionable information and someone challenges you about it maybe you should do a little more research, make fair comparisons and don't let your bias show through so much.

If you load "HOT" you are an old reloader and when I load following published data and accepted reloading practices I'm a bold reloader?

As to the 45-70 loads, without listing the specifics of weapon, load information and sources it is easy to criticize the 45-70 loads I presented. However, if you have all the information you will see that even Hodgdon lists 45-70 loads of 2100 fps with a 400 grain bullet. I stated my 45-70 405 grain hunting load yields 1950 fps from a 22" Marlin 1895. The other loads mentioned were for either a Marlin 1895 with a modified COAL, Siamese Mauser or Ruger #1/3. Your complaint shows you have an idea of what is prudent but lack the knowledge of particular weapons and loads, and therefore should really be researching more before offering an opinion. Of course, I will be accused of being a bold reloader who should be dead to deflect from your obvious lack of comprehension and tact.

It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

Oh yeah, your reliance on case head expansion for pressure signs IS laughable.

[ 08-27-2003, 20:04: Message edited by: jackfish ]

Jeffe.....funny you should mention "Cartridges of the World" by Mic McPherson.

If you go back to the section on "Proprietary Cartridges" and look up the 9.53 Lazzeroni HellCat you will see my name mentioned....Mic was instrumental in helping me find good loads and if there are many who know more about QuikLoad. it's strengths and limitations, than Mic I would be suprised.

You have, I'm sure, noticed the disclaimer used by Mic everytime he shows estimated date generated by QuikLoad.

With respect to using a micrometer I agree that there is a lot of "art" or technique involved and if you want to measure somethig hard like steel I don't have any problem taking precise and consistent measurements but when you talk about something like brass you are introducing a lot of "feel" into the measurement because of the brass's elasticity.

If it makes you happy and gives you a sense of security I figure "go for it" but......!

Okay, Fellas
Just how do YOU reach that a load is "hot" or not?

Primer flattening?
Case expansion?
recoil?
sticky bolt?
pierced primer?
Protruding primer?
Lug setback?
steel rain?

Just a question, as you ahve called to question to two most widely used methods. I am curious just how to do it right...

learn me suppin... as oviously using published data, computer models, chrongraphs, case head expansion and primers aren't good enough...

jackfish, PLEASE feel free to expound on your methods.

jeffe

[ 08-27-2003, 20:14: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

jeffe,

I never said that published data and chronographs weren't valuable in load development. Primer condition, sticky extraction and other "classic" excessive pressure signs can be indicators of problems, but should be considered with a comprehensive evaluation of the load and conditions. I do know that there are too many problems with measuring case heads that it is not a reliable indicator, particularly by itself and a caliper is just not going to do it. You need a blade micrometer to even attempt it.

Again, an example of you not reading or understanding what people write.

Jaskfish,
please answer the question, as you feel free to complain about my methods.

let's say, just for arguement, that all the parameters were met , for you, to use case expansion.... is .00275 safe?

stickly bolts, in modern guns, is way past safe... that's called an OVER LOAD...

How do YOU, jackfish, do this? Determine, incrementaly, how you determine where to stop?

Jsut gut feel? Or something repeatable? No measurement tools?

as for a reading.. same tools have the same margin of error.. valid is as valid does.

I have shown that I fail, slavishly, to the side of caution... not ram as much powder in it as fits and poping a cap

jeffe

[ 08-27-2003, 21:21: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Since refence was made to COTW this what is posted " 300 gr Hornady FMJ,70.7grs N550 2604 FPS 4518 FTLBS" mind you this per Quickload from a 20" barrel. Hornady says for their Custom Ammo 376 Steyr 270gr SP 2600 fps from a 24" barrel.

So if I'm right (correct me if not) if a 270gr can go out at 2600 fps from a 24" (which should be faster), then why can't a 300gr go out at 2600 fps also from a 19" barrel?

COTW also point out that a Hornady 225SP & 270SP both leave out at 2560, while Hornady say they both leave at 2600 fps.

Gives room to say that maybe jeffeso could be getting the speed he posted safely, btw he did say it was from a 24" barrel. JMHO

DB,
you have a PM
jeffe

jeffe

I've been reloading for 30+ years for everything from .223 to .375 H&H , plus shotshells and numerous handguns .

I have yet to mike a case , don't even own a mike . I've had the luxury of a chrono for 3 or 4 years now. I have not blown up any guns and still havr both eyes and all my fingers .

I guess I am an OLD AND BOLD handloader............or maybe you think I'm just lucky........??........

SD,

nope.. i think you are safe... I bet your don't rely on a sticky bolt to tell you to back down, ether

how do you tell your loads, then?

I am just wondering about if my way of doing it is soo wrong, then please tell me the RIGHT way... other than sticky bolt, that jackfisk seems to rely upon

jeffe

[ 08-29-2003, 00:28: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Usually I stay out of threads like this but...

Come on now guys, I came excited to learn something about a .375 WSM, a cartridge I am VERY interested in and all I found was a pissing match about .375 H&H vs. .376 Steyr reloading practices.

Biathelonman,
I posted this earlier in the thread. Rick Jamison built this entire line about a decade ago. I am certain you can email him for his results. goto olehr research, and they have an email link for him

Here's the quickload for the 3 375 (I don't have the laz in my quickload) at 57,700psi... which is a 10% backoff of max pressure

376 steyr 2538 at est57,700psi (68 grains of powder)
375 HH at 2598 at est57,700psi (78 grains of powder)
375 Jamison 2557 "" "" (70 grains of powder)

Same barrel length

With quickload, one is able to enter a max pressure and have all powders run against it.

[ 09-02-2003, 00:24: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Jeffe...please put some units on those presure numbers .... many still don't seem to understand that "psi" and "cup" are not the same units of pressure.....I'm going to assume they are "psi" as those number using "cup" would be max or even max+.

DB,
it's updated. all figures I EVER give are in PSI.

jeffe

Jackfish,
It's been 5 days since I requested your full load workup and pressure estimation techniques.

Don't bother answering now, as it would be obvious to all that it's merely backfill and not YOUR own method, as sticky bolts and flowing primers are sure signs of OVER pressure, not measurement TO pressure.

If all you rely upon is a sticky bolt, please do not engage again, in the future, with me in matters of pressure and reloading, as your own words have proven your "methods"

sorry to have offended anyone else

jeffe

jeffe......no one ask me but the method I use to check a load I like that hasn't shown any obvious signs of pressure is to pick 2 or 3 cases and shoot the load I like at least 5 or 6 times in the selected cases...if the primer pockets have expanded enough so that seating primers (I seat primers individually with a hand tool) becomes noticably easier then ...... that "specific load" is "hotter" than I want to shoot in "that rifle".

Changing to a different bullet, a different primer, or a different lot of the same powder would require additional testing.

I have, on occasion, shot a load that will smear the case head and have even stuck a bolt on occassion but each and every time that happened it wasn't because I was trying to find the fastest possible load using a specific set of components, it was because of a bad prediction by a ballistics program, a significant change in the burn rate of different lots of powder or because my seating depth was different enough from a published load that I got to high pressure well before anticipated.

I find that careful use of a chronograph will usually tell you when you are getting close as we all know, even if we don't like it, there isn't a free lunch when it comes to velcoity.

jeffe, why would one respond to you, you never find the time to address other's inquiries. In any event, you do enough talking for everyone here. Some of us have other things to do in five days than expound on the obvious, accepted reloading practices. Some of us shoot and hunt.

You don't read and comprehend what people write or you read your bias into what they write. I'm sure everyone is also willing to recognize you as the reloading expert here.

There are probably millions of "old reloaders" who do not measure case head expansion and work up safe and accurate loads. There are probably thousands of reloaders who should not be attempting to measure case head expansion as a sign of pressure. Why not just admit there are limitations to using Quickload and measuring case head expansion and YOU move on?

As for not engaging the forum, I'll do what I please. All your misunderstanding, ignoring, assumptions and accusations will not keep me from pointing out when I think you are wrong. You keep accusing me of being unsafe and then don't respond when I prove there is authoritative documentation to back up what I have done. As long as you conveniently ignore that why should I feel compelled to respond to you.

The facts are, when loaded to their potential the 375 H&H has 75 to 200 fps over the 376 Steyr, and the 375 WSM has a better chance of approaching 375 H&H performance than the 376 Steyr. Will game animals know the difference with a well-placed shot from any of them? Well, we all know I already said they probably wouldn't.

Just a note on case head expansion. All of the proponents suggest shooting factory ammunition for base information. So jeffe, you don't even follow the recommended procedure (Waters, Raab, Hagel, etc.) for measuring case head expansion when measuring new brass for base information. You also suggest that a caliper can be used when only a blade micrometer can come close to accurate results. Your standard micrometer doesn't work good enough. So you think you are on the "safest side" when you are really grasping at straws.

[ 09-02-2003, 21:40: Message edited by: jackfish ]

Jackfish,
once again, you are completly avoiding the issue, and attempting to cloud the issue with generalities.

the only thing that you've given, as a fact in your load development, is that you rely on a sticky bolt and primer condition.

You remind me of a guy at the range, that aciidentily points a barrel to the side, and then get's pissy when someone calls him on being unsafe.

my reloading practices fail unerringly on the side of the good side on safety. I am NOT interested in getting that extra 75 or 200 fps. If i wanted a 375 improved, I would have built that. That's the suggestion that I give everyone, that if you want 300 win mag performance, buy/build one... don't try to get it from a 308.

that a 376 CAN match FACTORY 375 HH is a non-issue. It can, it does, and it's lower than published loads on the matter. It's a FACTORY 65,000 psi load, exactly like the wsm/jamison family. I have shot steyr factory loads in mine, and frankly, on "reading" primers, it was too hot for me.

let's make it again clear, that 375 HH balistics MEANS 300gr at 2500fps. I have no doubt it can be loaded hotter. But when one says "it matches 375HH" they don't mean it matches 375 weatherby.

the 375 jamison has a case capacity, empty, of 85 grains. With a 300gr woodleigh bullet, it has a USABLE capacity of ~70.3, at rick's suggested max OAL of 2.860"

the 376 steyr has a max capacity of 80 grain... and with the same bullet, it's usable is about 68.5, at again, the factory 3.110 maz oal.

WOW!!!... less than 2 grains of water capacity...
let's look at the 375 hh... a WHOOPING 2.5% difference in case capacity ... WOW

95 grains max, 83grains usable... SURE it can go faster... and has ~ 15% greater case capacity, usuable, than the jamison, and a huge nearly 17% more than the steyr.... an amazing 2% greater useful capacity....

wow.. that's just amazin'... cases that have NEARLY THE SAME CAPACITY can have nearly the same velocity... wow.. aren't you stunned?

"oh it can be longer" but not the the chrimpgroove, and therefore not, IMHO, a dangerous game loading practice.

of course the 375 HH can be loaded hotter than either of these cases can ever be loaded SAFELY...

but can either one match the 375 hh factory stuff? sure can... can it be done safely... sure can...

<yawn>
Do as you please, jackfish... you certainly prove that you will

jeffe

DB Bill,
Sounds like a reasonable course for load development. well thought out, and safe. I used a very simular course until about 3 years ago, so the first 15 years or so of reloading was done that way. that is, if you add case expansion to the bunch as well..

jeffe