The Henriksen Tool Co. recently supplied Hornady Cartridge Co. with the reamer prints I used for at least my version of this Wildcat. Two separate reamers were used. A standard 375 H&H fit with the appropriate 404 diameter pilot was used to cut the chamber to depth. Then I used a neck and throating reamer made by Hugh Henriksen with the same pilot to establish the neck and throat area.

I choose to use a 2.800 length case but the Henriksen reamer I had made is adjustable and will allow for longer or shorter case lengths if desired. Mitch Mittelstaedt at Hornady is currently overseeing the construction of 2 sets of dies in the version I settled on. Hornady dies can be ordered cheaper than you can modify a set of standard 375 H&H dies if you value your time at all. I have now chambered a Rem Model-700 and a Pre-64 Model-70 for the this cartridge, both have worked very well and both shot very well. Each barrel shank was engraved with the following font for cartridge designation 404 375 H&H.

I can confirm if you Zero a 400gr Swift with a muzzle velocity of 2260fps for + 3 1/8" high at 100 yards that it's dead on at 200 yards and -13" low at 300 yards.

Is there any real reason to build one of these ? If you'd rather spend money on up-grading your overseas flight and buying a 2nd buffalo tag perhaps the simpicity of this concept may allow you to do so. If you already have a Pre-64 300/375 H&H action in the safe this is a very simple 40 caliber conversion. Provided the action is still OEM factory spec it should feed trouble free with very little effort. I did not try any extreme flat nose meplate bullets during these trials. They might cause some grief due to the large radius at the front of the magazine box on either side of the bullet ramp.

The Barnes TSX, Barnes Round Nose Solid and Swift A-frames fed completely trouble free. Unlike the Rem 700 version the Pre-64 will allow 4 rounds in the magazine and 1 in the chamber. So you have 5 round rifle that feeds at the original 404 Jeffery velocity and energy levels. I preceived the felt recoil to be less than that of the 416 Rem and way less than the Lott.

quote:

Is there any real reason to build one of these ?

Mr Echols,
The .404-375 is (as I'm sure you know) midway between the .416 Rem Mag and the .458 Lott.

Either of the other two cartridges can be loaded to the slower velocity.....( I'm assuming one can load the .404-375 to nearly 2500 FPS) to achieve less recoil if that is what is needed/wanted.

If we change the question to: "Is there any practical reason to build one of these?" the answer gets fairly obvious quite quickly.

For the guy that simply must shoot .423 diameter bullets as opposed to .416 or .458.....the answer is totally different.....

You know your customers (I assume) quite well.....so I'd guess that you are in the best position to answer your own question....but lets change it a bit.....How many of your clients have come to you wanting you to build a dangerous game wildcat?

Personally, I'd rather have a .404-375 Ruger than a .404-375 H&H.....at least that will fit in a standard length action.....

Thanks for the update. Will anyone be able to order 404-375 HH dies by calling up Hornady now? That makes things a lot easier for those who might want to jump into the fray.

Hi Vap. The original 404 Jefferey oal was designed with an OAL to fit the m98 action right? This will fit too but the cost efficiency is with a rebore of an existing 375HH. Plenty of those around.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Is there any real reason to build one of these ?

Mr Echols,
The .404-375 is (as I'm sure you know) midway between the .416 Rem Mag and the .458 Lott.

Either of the other two cartridges can be loaded to the slower velocity.....( I'm assuming one can load the .404-375 to nearly 2500 FPS) to achieve less recoil if that is what is needed/wanted.

If we change the question to: "Is there any practical reason to build one of these?" the answer gets fairly obvious quite quickly.

For the guy that simply must shoot .423 diameter bullets as opposed to .416 or .458.....the answer is totally different.....

You know your customers (I assume) quite well.....so I'd guess that you are in the best position to answer your own question....but lets change it a bit.....How many of your clients have come to you wanting you to build a dangerous game wildcat?

Personally, I'd rather have a .404-375 Ruger than a .404-375 H&H.....at least that will fit in a standard length action.....

quote:

Hi Vap. The original 404 Jefferey oal was designed with an OAL to fit the m98 action right? This will fit too but the cost efficiency is with a rebore of an existing 375HH. Plenty of those around.

Well....not exactly.....
A rebore costs about the same as a new barrel....

When I said "fit a standard length action", I was thinking along the lines of a standard M-70 in .300 win mag or 7mm Rem Mag....there's a lot of them around and cost a lot less than converting a M-98 action.....and even some of the Interarms and other modern day M-98s are easily rebarreled to the .375 Ruger case.

I certainly agree that if one has a M-98 in .375 H&H, all he needs is a rebore and a little oxphoblue from Brownells to cover up the rework of the barrel engraving.....but wouldn't one rather rebore to .416?.....something standard?

I have bought magnum M-70s from gunbroker for under $200....yes...under $200!...they are with broken stocks and need work to a degree but when one rebarrels it and reblues it as a barreled action, it's a fairly cheap end product.

I doubt that any of the guild members here will convert a fine VZ-24 to feed the .375 H&H with three position safety, modern bolt handle, drilled and tapped, with a "Timney style" trigger and hinged floorplate for under $1,500.

Further, I know that there are a few folks that post here to which that's pocket change and they just might insist on a M-98 so converted.....so for those few, just get a hold of Mr Kobe, Mr Echols, or any of a few others that post here making spectacular rifles in the $5,000-$15,000 range and have at it.

For folks like me.....just find a used M-70 in 7mm Rem Mag and rebarrel it....it comes with a hinged floor plate, it's drilled and tapped, it has a scope friendly bolt handle and it already has a fine trigger.....

I've noticed that of the DG customs displayed on the custom rifles forum, there seems to be a strong desire for "traditional"....or "nostalgic" calibers and styling.....and the M-98 is certainly of that character....but of those displayed here on AR I don't recall any of them in a wildcat version......it's simply not "nostalgic"

as an aside....I'll always wonder why Ruger didn't follow up with a .338, a .300, a .358, and a .423 Ruger based of the .375 Ruger case.
Apparantly the .416 Ruger didn't fly well at all.

I fired both rifles that D'Arcy built/converted (actually hunted with one of them) and they both functioned flawlessly. Recoil was very manageable and the cartridges were painless to load/adapt.

This is a great solution for a guy who wants a bigger hole in his .375 without spending time and money on feed work, changing inletting, etc.

These are Custom Dies. The following is a response to my email.

The cost will be 185.00 plus shipping and handling. Our current lead time is around 16 weeks. Please don’t hesitate to give me a shout with any questions or for more ordering information. 800-338-3220

Thank you for your inquiry.

Regards,
Ben Syring
Engineering/Reloading Die Design
Hornady Mfg. Co.
3625 W. Old Potash Hwy
Grand Island, NE 68803

quote:

as an aside....I'll always wonder why Ruger didn't follow up with a .338, a .300, a .358, and a .423 Ruger based of the .375 Ruger case.
Apparantly the .416 Ruger didn't fly well at all.

Seems like market penetration of the .375/.416 Rugers is going very well. Ruger seems to have resolved their issues with wood stocks as the .416 Ruger is no longer limited to the synthetic Hogue stock.

Big bore cartridges are of limited market appealand volume when compared to "deer rifle cartridges". So from an economic standpoint of Ruger/Hornady release additional .375"Ruger derivative cartridges it'd likely be in .338 and .458 calibers. In actuality I believe it'd make more sense to offer a .458 Ruger cartridge/rifle than it would be to offer a .338 Ruger cartridge/rifle

I know some folks really like the .358 and .423 caliber but noting can be accomplished in .358 caliber than can't be as well accomplished with either a .338 or .375 caliber cartridge and the same can be said of the .423 caliber when compared to the .416 and .458 calibers. (I have a .423/338 Lapua wildcat cartridge chambered rifle.)

I notice Nosler has already introduced the 28 Nosler (.284 caliber) as a derivative of their 26 Nosler case and I've heard there'll be a 33 Nosler (.338 caliber) along with other larger derivatives in the not to distant future. So perhaps we won't see additional Ruger/Hornady .375 Ruger derivative cartridge/rifle offerings because Nosler is aggressively introducing slightly larger capacity cartridges in the same 3.4" magazine length market. Who knows, perhaps you'll be seeing your beloved AccRel cartridges introduced by Nosler (with Nosler's slight alterations) as factory loaded cartridges. Certainly raises some interesting possibilities.

Sorry for the earlier threadjack.

The 404-375 H&H is a cartridge that makes a lot of sense. Heavier bullets from quality manufacturers and a ready/easy supply of brass. And it certainly removes weight from .375 barrels using a .458 caliber barrel profile.

I believe and factory that would have offered this chambering in a trim rifle weighing in the 8-9# range (empty weight) would have had an instant national/international winner on their hands.

And truthfully, this cartridge makes a heck of a lot more sense to me than the oddball .400 H&H cartridge.

But then a 404-375 H&H cartridge pretty well eliminates the need for rifles chambered in either the .375 H&H or .458 Lott which is likely why it wasn't a factory introduction.

Personal comment only RE: 404-375 H&H case length...

I believe the 2.8" case length is the best specification for use in the 3.6"-3.65" magazine length rifles whereas the 2.85" case length makes sense for use in magnum length action.

Does Henriksen Tool Co. have a web site? or an email address?

His e-mail address is hwhjls@netzero.net

Got the reamers from Henriksen's. Now I need someone to build the rifle. I have the parts.

Glad to hear another 404-375 is in the works. If you post in the gunsmith forum I am sure you would get some referrals unless the amazing D'Arcy wants to do it.

I know Jim Kobe just barreled one. It is not difficult if you chose the right action such as the Pre-64 Mod-70 that was originally a 300 or 375 H&H, a current Mod-70 that was a 7STW, 300 Weatherby or 375 H&H. By the same token you can use a current 70 chamber for 7mm Rem , 300 Win etc but you'll need to open the ejection port, replace the bolt stop, ejector and magazine. A 700 Rem will work fine as well but you will need to widen the bullet ramp. The beauty of this is its simplicity when using an action already set up for the H&H case. The original plan in 1978 was to use a 300/375 Pre-64 Action and be done with it. Hornady makes the dies as a custom set and they are available.

How much different is it to the 400H&H?

No shoulder
Just taper to neck junction
Larger diameter bullet

It could be much more complicated. He could have chosen to do a 425-375H&H.

I am still waiting on either RCBS or Midway to get some Woodleighs or Kynoch bullets in.

I reckon the 400 H&H is a perfect cast bullet calibre. Very long neck so bullet, including gas check can be enclosed within the neck.

Unlike the 404 Jeffery the belted case of the 400 will stop headspace increasing with each shot when very reduced loads are used and of course it has the plus of 375 H&H brass.

All the above could of course be applied to the 458 Win and 458 Lott but when all else is equal I would always prefer a bottle neck case.

From what I see there would be a 3 or 4 grain capacity differential between the 400HH and 404-375HH so taking into account bullet diameter difference and useable case capacity there would be virtually no difference in velocity of same weight projectiles for like pressure. I see the 404-375 to be a great case for cast bullets as well. If I was making a belted 410 case it would be neckibg up the 300HH case to give about the same neck area as the 400HH but without the shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael McGuire:

Unlike the 404 Jeffery the belted case of the 400 will stop headspace increasing with each shot when very reduced loads are used and of course it has the plus of 375 H&H brass.

I have read where one should not use cases for full power jacket loads once they have been used for cast bullet loads, and you have alluded to this being an issue with increasing head-space.

I have never given it much thought but can anyone explain the mechanics of this phenomenon?

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael McGuire:

Unlike the 404 Jeffery the belted case of the 400 will stop headspace increasing with each shot when very reduced loads are used and of course it has the plus of 375 H&H brass.

I have read where one should not use cases for full power jacket loads once they have been used for cast bullet loads, and you have alluded to this being an issue with increasing head-space.

I have never given it much thought but can anyone explain the mechanics of this phenomenon?

What happens is the primer exploding drives the case forward, which also happens with normal loads. However, normal loads fire form the case but very reduced loads won't full fire form the case and thus head space increases with each shot.

If you have rimless cases with a fair bit of headspace then you run an expander plug though the neck, say come up one calibre, that is, 270 to 30 or 338 to 375 etc. Then run the cases through your full length sizing die and you will get a small shoulder form in the neck of the case, just in front of where the main shoulder joins the case neck.

Belted and rimmed cases don't have the problem. So if someone is into reduced loads and especially squib loads then a 300 Winchester is better than a 300 WSM and a 375 H&H is better than a 375 Ruger. In other words the belted case is not the fucking waste of time that many these days say of the belted case

A match made in heaven: 404/.375 H&H with Pre-64 M70 action of OEM configuration for 300 H&H or .375 H&H.

If only I did not already have a .395/.375 H&H ...

In a 300 H&H Pre-64 Win M70 action, I verify 4+1 capacity using a cartridge with the same body taper as the 404/.375 H&H.
My .395/.375 H&H is a really slick feeder too.

I plan on using the action from a Weatherby Southgate FN Mauser chambered for the 300 Weatherby for the build.

I have a choice of barrels to use. I orginally ordered a Lothar Walther #5130 "Mauser Type E". I had threads cut and the barrel shortened o 24 inches. The muzzle measures .625 which I thought was a bit thin so I ordered a Lilja #5 which would be about .725 at the muzzle but is a bit heavy. I would like to use the Lothar Walther barrel for the build. Does anybody see any issues with the thin barrel?

quote:

Originally posted by Jgrabow6493:
I plan on using the action from a Weatherby Southgate FN Mauser chambered for the 300 Weatherby for the build.

I have a choice of barrels to use. I orginally ordered a Lothar Walther #5130 "Mauser Type E". I had threads cut and the barrel shortened o 24 inches. The muzzle measures .625 which I thought was a bit thin so I ordered a Lilja #5 which would be about .725 at the muzzle but is a bit heavy. I would like to use the Lothar Walther barrel for the build. Does anybody see any issues with the thin barrel?

.625" at the 24" muzzle, barrel wall thickness in the groove = 0.101"

.725" at the 24" muzzle, barrel wall thickmess in the groove = 0.151"

There are certainly lots of olde English rifles and double rifles with 0.100" muzzle wall thickness, or less.

I usually like to build mine with .125" minimum muzle wall thickness, when I am planning them.

That means a number 4 sporter minimum here, about 0.675" muzzle diameter at 24" length, so your number 5 is more than enough.

The Lilja number 5 could be turned down a bit, or used as is, with or without a barrel band front sight base.

The Lothar Walther barrel could also be used but put a barrel band front sight on it for sure, and avoid any screws to set it there. Either solder or JB Weld only.

I would base the decision on which barrel balances it best.
Assuming a wood stock, I suspect the Lilja with a little muzzle thinning would be perfect.

But if the Lothar Walther with its (I assume) stepped contour has sufficient weight, use that.

BTW, for general edification, what are the groove and twist specs on these two barrels?

IIRC, both are a true .423" groove, nice and tight for a .423" bullet diameter.
Also, both are 14" twist?
That is great too.

Both are .423 groove and 14" twist.

I'm looking for starting loads using 400 gr bullets. Can anyone share some loads?

E-mail me at echolslegend@comcast.net

D'Arcy,
Inasmuch as one can get an easy 2350 to 2400 FP in a 416 Rem. without undue pressure, it would seem to me that one could easily get probably 2450 to 2500 safely in your wildcat with the bigger hole in the barrel? Am I missing something here?

Ray as the case capacity and body taper hasn't changed despite the increase in bore diameter you will not be unable to get a 400gr bullet safely much beyond 2300 fps from this wildcat. The whole purpose of this endeavor was to be able to use actions previously manufactured, designed and regulated to feed standard 375 H&H rounds to eliminate feeding issues and Gunsmithing cost, there I go cutting my own throat. It was not to gain velocity or mirror the 416 Rem. Dig up the thread from day one and re-read it as you're drinking a cup of coffee.

Besides none of us has as enough H414 to try to get a 400gr up to warp speed as you've bought it all up.

At Municion.org I see a cart called "404 Poor mans magnum". It is a necked up unimproved 375hh to 404. There is a date of 1960 but I am not sure about the history of that posting. The length was 2.82" which is about what you get when you neck up a regular length 375hh iirc.

Would not surprise me in the least. If you go back to my original post I spoke of my Instructors at the School of Trades that suggested it to me saying this would be a great 40 caliber magnum for anyone that had a Pre-64 300/375 length Model 70. But other than those made by Fred Barnes .423 caliber bullets were as rare as rocking horse shit in the US. No bullets, why build it ? Today there are many very good bullets to choose from. I've chambered 3 and they all shot great and easy ammo to make.

It would be cool to know that it has a history and by who. Good is good and great minds yadda yadda
I think the .410 and .430 versions would be great as well.

D'Arcy,

How much work does it take to get a Winchester Pre'64 magnum action that started life as a 375H&H, converted to a .404 Jeffery?

If you stick to conventional Semi round nose and typical round nose nothing that I've run into so far. If you go to a Flat Meplat solid you will spend some time re-working the bullet ramp as to how much time that will depend in the size of the Meplat. On a Pre-64 long magnum action it's pretty painless.

D'Arcy,
That makes way too much since...Feeding is a demon that many gunsmiths claim to be capable of in big bores, but seldom do I get one back that feeds all that well!! Your spot on!