I'm sure its been done, of course, but has anyone heard of, or have any info about a .411 based on the .284win case? Would this case give more or less capacity vs. a 350 RM? Or maybe even a 7.5 Swiss?

Case volume should be pretty identical to the .411 Hawk, bullet seating depth/action length is what differs.

quote:

I'm sure its been done, of course, but has anyone heard of, or have any info about a .411 based on the .284win case? Would this case give more or less capacity vs. a 350 RM? Or maybe even a 7.5 Swiss

I have no clue if it has been done or not. As to capacity. A 284 my data shows a 280 Hawk to be 4 grs larger or about 6%. A 411 version would be close to the same. Probably a little smaller %. A 350RM case is the same size as a 358 Hawk.

Key issue is going to be the magazine length. In playing with my 400PDK I measured that a 411 used up about 30grs of powder space for each inch it was in the case. So with a same OAL comparing a 400gr to 300gr the 400 bullet would use up 14-15% more case capacity.

I fooled Loadtech into a comparison. In the 411 Hawk 64.8 grs of 4895 used 96% capacity and yield 60,000. Changing the case to a 284 version and 2.8"(284 std?) 59.7grs used 104% capacity still gave 60,000 and velocity was about 150fps less. When I tried a 400gr bullet in a 284 case the sytem used very fast powder like RL7.

Any OAL longer than 2.8" sure would help with either bullet.

I think you guys caught on very quick as to my goal with this idea

I think a 284 or 350 RM case would be pretty close to the 411 Hawk. The 24-32 Hawks use the 280 Rem case improved, which would give the higher capacity of the 280 Hawk vs the 284 Win. But the 338, 358, 375 and 411 Hawks use cylindrical 30-06 brass, and I think the 411 trims to 2.470" with a COAL of around 2.9, from what I gather from data on z-hat.com.

milehigh

I cannot help with capacity or load questions but can tell you that it has been done. With 416 bullets. It's called simply a 416/284. I have one in my collection but cannot remember who gave it to me. There is also a shorter version using 40 caliber bullets.

Ray

Thanks! If you run across any info of a .411 bullet, let me know. While close, .416 is not .411

Whether the case is made from 280 brass or cylinder brass they are both an improved type case trimmed to 2.47" The shoulder is in the same spot. Any difference in capacity would be caused by the interior dimensions of the brass.

If you look at his site you will see a range of COAL. Some caused by the cannelure position some to feed in his lever actions. Using a 300 FBFN there is .55" in front of the cannelure that would put your COAL at 3.02" using his 2.47. In a 284 case the COAL would be 2.71".

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/wildcat_0612/

I thought the 400 on the steyr case was a good idea.

the 416 as we know is the Aagard. you could use Aagard dies and reamer to make a 416-284.

If you reeeeeeeeeeely want to get serious Qual Cart has some basic that he can make up to 2.6"!!!!!! and anything from a rimmed case to a rebated case.

Thanks Paul! 2.71"....that would work....but still have to explore action options. Right now the action I will have on hand soon has a .532 bolt, so the 350 Rem Mag or 450 Marlin case would be easiest.

Boom - I was looking at the same thing last night lol I know Fred is a fan of the .411, makes me wonder why he didn't do just that, the .411/376. But then again, the Steyr case isnt TOO different from the 284, other then the rim. The base of the 284 is what, .499 or something vs the 376's .501? Same with the 7.5 Swiss, but its not rebated, even .498

Guys

it looks like we have a lot of 40 cal fans on this thread so let me use this as a way to ask a question.

I don't have a rifle in any of the 40 caliber cartridges and will probably never have one. But I have often wondered why there is so much discussion comparing the various 40 caliber bullets?? That is - 400, 405, 411, 416, 418. Is there really that much difference between them?

Just curious. Not meant to offend anyone or start a big fight (such as Roger B would. Only kidding Roger)

Ray

the 400 has a huge variety of bullets and weights from pistol to DG with a large spread in functional impact velocities.

it is the 458 of the 400's

Well this is one of those "calibers" that can be rather confusing. Take the 404 Jeff for example, its actually a .423 bullet, as is our Mr. Fossdals .425 Fossdal. The 416's....are 416's lol. The 400 H&H, .411 Hawk/Express, 400 Whelen and 405 Winchester use a .411 bullet. Sometimes you'll see 408, 409, 410, 412 also used in 405 Win bullets. The 450/400 NE 3, 3 1/4" and the 400 Jeff Rimmed, use a .410" bullet. True .400" bullets are pistol bullets, 40 S&W and 10mm. Now in a lever action, a guy on my other shooting board necked down a 450 Marlin to .40 pistol bullet (400 Marlin) and he gets 405 Winchester power all day long.

I want my wildcat to use .411 bullets, as there are some great ones available from Barnes, Hornady, Woodleigh and North Fork once they're back in full production. These give a rather large diameter bullet with modest velocity cartridges a rather flexible cartridge. While I'm not sure if the Hawk has been tested in Africa on DG, it has in Alaska. Look at the numbers produced, and compare those to the 450/400 NE, they're the same if not slightly more powerful. The 450/400 has been time tested and proven on everything up to elephant (including a report by one of our own AR members very recently) However due to the design of the cartridge, the high pressure and the length of barrels....probably not the best choice lol What I am looking to do is match the Hawk, but with a short action cartridge I might have a little more flexibility in the types of powder I can use, and possibly a shorter barrel.

It is my belief that the .411 bore is an unsung hero. Its outshined by the smaller more popular 375's, and larger, often MUCH more powerful 416's. Problem is the majority of the 416's are very, very powerful rifles using long full length mag cases, and in the Rigby, requiring special WIIIIIIDE actions and large bolt faces (same with 416 Wby). They also probably produce much more recoil then is necessary for the powerlevels needed. My problem here is, that there is NO North American game cartridges in this category, other then the Hawk. For moderate range, big bore lever action power level, bolt action rifles...you go from the 350 Rem Mag, and basically skip up to light loaded 458 Win Mags. The vast majority of whats in between are focused dangerous game stoppers. You COULD chamber a 450 Marlin in a bolt action, and I've thought about that...but I want something in between. The 405 is kinda there, but only in the 1895 lever action and single shots. 1895's are known for punishing recoil for the power, due to a poor stock design IMO.

I will also add, with the 416's and .404 Jef aside, a "40" cal rifle is pretty much a custom deal outside of limited runs of 405 Winchester. But you're quite limited on rifle choices (Win 1895 every few years, and low numbers of Ruger #1's) and the ammo selection is limited to Hornady, factory wise. Granted the .411 Hawk is considered a proprietary "factory" round, rifles, dies, and loaded headstamped ammo only comes from Z-Hat customs. Now if you want to look at some impressive wildcat turned semi-factory, z-hat.com has some great reading.

quote:

Granted the .411 Hawk is considered a proprietary "factory" round, rifles, dies, and loaded headstamped ammo only comes from Z-Hat customs. Now if you want to look at some impressive wildcat turned semi-factory, z-hat.com has some great reading

I think Fred built the 411 Hawk to simply go with the 375 and it smaller brothers. I had orignally built a 416PDK using my 280 based wildcat. When I built a replacement in 411 I used cylinder brass and left the neck long. With the 300 and 350gr bullets in a 06 magazine you can take advantage of the longer neck and increase your net capacity. In my talking to Fred I know that he had built himself a longer version of the 411Hawk. Used the 2.65" cylinder brass and moved to hawk shoulder forward. He lists the remaer as the 411 Express. As to which he uses I don't know. He rents out the 411Express reamer and I know McGowan rents from him aws well.

An 06 based case is capable of good velocity with the 411 bullets. Even the Whelen when the chamber is cut correctly. I've been very happy with my 400PDK I've posted velocity results for the 300 & 400.

In your shorter case if you are thinking 400gr bullets the 1.3-1.5" length will really take up case capacity.

You know I was alwasy curious about the differenve between the Hawk and the Express! Its really hard to tell looking at the two (COTW #11) But I figured something was different since with a 400 gr bullet and RL15, the Hawk gets 2159fps with 57.0 gr and the Express gets 59.0 at 2160. All the loads listed seem to be about 2gr powder more, for usually less then 10fps increase.

I might play with the 400's just to see, but I was really planning more on the 360's and lighter bullet weights. I'd be happy to come close to the Hawk/Express velocity in the lighter bullets, but with a shorter barrel and 2.8" action...of course this will take much experimenting.

I have toyed around with the idea of using WSM/RCM/RUM brass cut to proper lengths, but I think with the powder capactiy and velocity possibilities, this puts it right into Big 5 territory and would sort of defeat the purpose of big bore lever action power, but from a scout style bolt action.

quote:

You know I was alwasy curious about the differenve between the Hawk and the Express! Its really hard to tell looking at the two (COTW #11) But I figured something was different since with a 400 gr bullet and RL15, the Hawk gets 2159fps with 57.0 gr and the Express gets 59.0 at 2160. All the loads listed seem to be about 2gr powder more, for usually less then 10fps increase

ASSUMING he is using an 06 magazine the net capacity increase would be very minimal. A long 400 gr bullet will probably seat in the hawk and just fit in the 06 magazine. The longer express gains you basically nothing unless you lengthen the magazine or go to the lighter bullets. Then you gain full use of the capacity. My case is 86 grs 2.65" and the 300 & 350s will fit in the cannelure and the 06 mag box.

His loads of 57-59grs seems light since he is up to 68+ of 4895 with the 300s in the Hawk. I used Varget in mine an loaded up to 70grs and simply ran out of room. Compressed sure.

I have nothing to add other than the 416/284 brought out (can't remember the name, its in COTW 9th Ed) was an 'improved' version of the 284case with a bit more of the taper blown out.

A 411 would be shmick with 300gr spitzer from Hornady and a deep-seated 400gr Woodleigh for the nasty stuff.

The 300RCM, 300WSM, 284Win are all suitable candidates for a non-belted cartridge. The 350RemMag stands out for a short-belted. I'd be inclined to use the 350RemMag case personally ... cheap and strong brass.
Cheers...
Con

the 350rem is a strong contender. And honestly it could be any belted mag cut down as well, whatevers cheapest at the time. The RCM WSM RASUM RUM shortened route was considered, and i guess still is. My only concern is pushing past my power goals and jumping straight into a pure DG round. At the same time, i guess it does also get me to my power goals with less pressure.....can still down load as well, maybe go with some cast bullets for the non THC animals (thats teeth horns and claws). Out of those choices, WSM brass is very available and priced well. Probably smart to use 325 brass, minimize necking up as much as possible.

MHS,
If you used the 350RemMag case a set of Lee dies could be honed out, and a chamber cut with appropriate neck/throaters. Pushing a 400gr at velocities above 2000fps may really stretch it ... but you'll be in a useful velocity for close range work. The 300gr projectiles should get around 2300fps which is still pretty handy and you have pistol projectiles to play with, plus could draw down 0.416" projectiles if you wanted even more options.
The WSM case will give you the potential for more velocity, doesn't mean you have to use it. It may present a few more frustrations getting it to feed from a short non-WSM donor action. I reckon the WSM is the easiest option and its kind of nice having the potential to step up higher if needed.
Cheers...
Con

Con,

Already have a WSM donor action I picked up a SS Ruger WSM just for this project.

Ya know, Qual Cart DOES offer 416 wsm brass, that should be an easy neck-down...hmm

Just checked and RCM brass is only a few bucks more, I think this would be more then enough capacity to get to my goals and maybe not have as empty a case as the WSM. I think someone else in one of my posts mentioned getting a 35 RCM dies and plans on going 411 later.

OK I feel stupid! Just went and reread that thread lol The guy I'm answering is the one who beat me to it in the first place lol Back to the drawing boards....maybe a RUM cut down a bit shorter then a WSM but with enough brass to make a bit longer neck for better purchase and being able to seat a little farther out?

We've been there ALL!! Point is, there is no good reason to make a new cat just for the hell of it. If it does not do anything else or better, it is no real cat. Really.
You want something new?
Use the 10,75x68 braSS, cut it to desired length, and ok. It is yours, it is expensive, but all the practical good ones are already taken. Sorry.
Not meaning to put you down, but there is always a time to come down to facts...

thats a good idea bent, but what is the case head dia on the x68? i have the action already and changing the bolt face is another cost id like to avoid. having something new is nice....but i think i am realizing its not going to let me down if i have to use someone elses idea......as long as its a rare one

if the case head on the 10.75x68 is the right diameter its an interesting option cut down. the problem is i already have a wsm crf action to work with and changing the bolt face is just an added expense. if i have to change it, i would rather just open it up to accept an even larger case, like to .579 to accept a 2" 378 wby case

quote:

We've been there ALL!!

Heck I was 75% finished wit building and testing my PDK series Had an article I was going to write. Then someone said they sound a lot like the Gibbs. Never did finish.

Even though there is a LOT of info out there, I really wish there was more record of what cats are around. QC for example lists several 411 cartridges, but no clue what they're based off of. But at the same time, who really cares if you're exclusive as long as you like your wildcat. Heck, the one you build could even be something that was just created and named, maybe a dummy round but was never chambered so who knows.

Of course, this still doesn't help me with what case I want to use for my 411 something-or-other lol