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Wayne's gel test was impressive. 2.80" high at 100 and -12" low at 300 with over 2,100 fps of energy at 300yds. 300 grain bullet cloverleaf at 100 yds is not bad shooting. 300 grain bullet @2,500 will knock down anything around here.

I built my 416PDK years ago because when I wanted to do it 411 bullets were hard to come by. Taking a 280 case to 416 was a lot of work. Not much different than taking a 06 to 411. What I found was with anything but the shortest 416s I used up way to much case capacity unless I ignored the cannelure or cut a second one. When I decided to redo it in 411 I decided to go with clyinder brass to make the forming far easier. However it sure didn't make sense to cut off the 2.65" case when a normal 06 magazine allowed me to use it full length and still seat the various 411 bullets in the their cannelures.

I talked to Fred at Z-hat when I rented his 411 neck/throat reamer. He said that he had taken his 411Hawk design and simply set it up to use a full length 2.65" case by moving the shoulder forward calling it a 411 Express building and using one himself. The following is from his reamer list: "411 Express 2.650"/ 06 based case. One of our Wildcats".

Brass is the same cost, dies as well so why leave net case capacity on the table with a 411Hawk when z-hat makes a 411 Express?

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Wayne's gel test was impressive. 2.80" high at 100 and -12" low at 300 with over 2,100 fps of energy at 300yds. 300 grain bullet cloverleaf at 100 yds is not bad shooting. 300 grain bullet @2,500 will knock down anything around here.

Expand inexpensive 35 whelen brass and push into FL die. Your done.
I talked to Fred at Z-hat today and he says there is really no difference between the two.

* I would also rather build and shoot a 308 Norma than a 300 Win Mag, which is an rch longer.

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I talked to Fred at Z-hat today and he says there is really no difference between the two.

That is interesting. Sorry now I deleted his email because now all I have is my swiss cheese memory.

I always find it interesting the capacity of the 400 Whelen has 75.5grs the 411 Hawk is 77.4 or a 2.5% increase. But the 411 Hawk is now the greatest thing since sliced bread. However an 11% increase over the 411 Hawk is called "really no difference".

It is great that both exist so we can build whatever floats our boat.

Paul
aint it always funny when 3 otherwise the same things have a measurable difference... and the superior one "aint much difference"...

like an BCH and an RCH .. both are good stuff!!

I would say the '06 case has been necked up and down for every possible caliber, shoulder blown out, forward and set back, and all the "reasonable" angles tried. Lots of wild claims for the resulting effort.

I once looked at a "maximized" '06 case in 270 cal...made the regular ol' 270 looke like a piker and was running neck and neck with many of the 270 magnums, but I didn't think comparing a standard 270 with a 22" barrel to a 30" barreled "270 Maximum" quite proper.

The '06 case is fairly easy to manipulate, has a decent case volume, and while not a "magnum" due to that volume, even when stretched to it's maximum, it does a very good job with any caliber it's morphed into.

I think 416 is about as big as you can go "reasonably" and still have a shoulder of some kind and that is questionable depending on the shoulder OD...although you might get .423 if you go to .460 at the shoulder and turn the "neck" walls to about 0.0125" resulting in about a 0.010" "shoulder". Always wondered about doing one but never around to it. I would suspect someone on this forum has experience in this area.

I don't like headspacing on the case mouth for a lot of reasons, especially in a rifle, so anything larger gets the belt treatment as far as I'm concerned.

I like my 416 Taylor but might have used the '06 case except for all the negative information I came across while researching it. Much of the information coming from Z-Hat. They did the initial work so I wasn't going to re-invent the wheel and they ARE excellent in their field. I was stuck on the .416 cal so a "puny" .411 wasn't going to do...the same with the very good 400 Whelen. See how prejudice can twist and warp an "objective" evaluation.

I like all my "wildcats" based on the '06 case whether they are factory available or not. They always do the job efficiently as long as I stay within the capabilities of the cartridge. They don't do to bad when I get stoopid and stretch those parameters a bit.

I now have or have had every cal from 22 through 35 based on the '06 case and almost a 375 and may still...I like them all...they have pro's and con's just like all things, none are "the perfect cartridge" and I would compare them to a journeyman...knows his job, does it well (mostly), efficient, pride in his work, but there are always better or worse, but we depend on them to keep the world running.

I subscribe to the idea of using the correct tool for the job not matter what I'm doing, but then I seem to be in the minority in todays world of "gitrdone" no matter what.

'Njoy

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I don't like headspacing on the case mouth for a lot of reasons, especially in a rifle

I'm all ears (or, uh, eyes). I agree there's negatives, and I'm interested in hearing the ones you know about.

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Originally posted by Snapper: I talked to Fred at Z-hat today and he says there is really no difference between the two.

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Originally posted by ramrod340:I always find it interesting the capacity of the 400 Whelen has 75.5grs the 411 Hawk is 77.4 or a 2.5% increase. But the 411 Hawk is now the greatest thing since sliced bread. However an 11% increase over the 411 Hawk is called "really no difference".

It is great that both exist so we can build whatever floats our boat.

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Originally posted by ramrod340:
Now I have a 375PDK and 400PDK being chambered at the current time. Will they add much velocity over the 375 & 400 Whelen or Hawk? Nope, probably less than 50fps, but they will say PDK to match their brothers in the safe.

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Originally posted by ramrod340:This is what I got from the 416 version when I had it. Loads are IMR4895
Bullet Charge Velocity July 30, 2007
300 Hawk bullet
70gr, 2570fps, Accurate
69gr, 2555fps
68gr, 2525fps
Since the case is the same and the bullets will only be .411 vs .416, I would expect very close to the same velocity in the 411 version.

Interesting indeed!!! Didn't P.O.Ackley find that more powder was needed after improving a case to reach the original velocity?
Here are some loads from Z-Hat:
TEST LOADS FOR .411 HAWK H4895

300 gr. Hawk RN, H4895, CCI 200 primer. 25†barrel
64gr – Average fps =2553, Standard Deviation of 13.60

300 gr. Hawk RN, H4895, CCI 200 primer, 27†barrel
63gr @2673 fps, 4181 foot pds energy, recent pressure tests with the Oehler system showed 57,200 Model 43 psi for this load.

325 gr. North Fork, Semi-Spitzer, H4895, CCI 200 primer, in 25" barrel.
63 gr. 2430 fps, Model 43 psi 57,000, Standard deviation of 4, Accurate load.

As you suggested, these 400's are all very close. What's not to like with any one of them?

I could make my own by using a longer case, shortening the neck, min case taper and bring the shoulder out to max and call it the 400BFD, but I don't think it would be worth the cost.

If Fred says it isn't much different and your loads from the 416pdk also show no difference, what's left?

It is always funny when someone brags about a load they haven't developed yet, but floats a boat with it.

P.S. Had a crossbolt put in my 411 in 1998. 2550fps is good enough for me.

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If Fred says it isn't much different and your loads from the 416pdk also show no difference, what's left?

It is always funny when someone brags about a load they haven't developed yet, but floats a boat with it.

Sorry I didn't explain my comment better. What I found interesting is Fred's comment. As I said I had a couple emails from him when I rented his neck/throat reamer. As I "remember" his comments he didn't call the 411 Hawk and the 411 express equal. Since I have deleted those emails I only have my swiss cheese memory to go by I'll just leave it as "my understanding". Also interesting on his site he has nothing but great things to say about the 411Hawk makes reference to the same shoulder and the fact that the 400Whelen is often made with the wrong shoulder dia but doesn't point out the 411Hawk is only about 2.5% larger. So using a 1 for 4 in theory the Hawk should give around a 15FPS increase.

Fred's shown velocity is with a 26&27" barrel. I for one just wouldn't want a 26" barrel on a 400 but that is just me.

The 416PDK was built with 280 brass and I did very little load development with it. My buddy has used it for years in Alaska. His go to load is a 340 Woodleigh at 2430FPS and I know he is a "if it isn't broke don't fix it" and does load developement to find an accurate load at acceptable velocity and doesn't burn bullets or powder he doens't have to.

If someone already has a 400 I would be first to say that a longer case, shoulder neck change etc would not make a difference that any animal you would shoot with it could tell the difference. Might not even be able to see on paper. Differences more than likely less that the differences between barrels. I would also say done to the correct dimensions the 400 Whelen is hard to beat.

In my case I was starting from scratch, I had my reamer I needed to rent the throater, I was having custom dies made and I had elected to use cylinder brass this time so why cut the case. It was free capacity why leave it on the table by cutting the neck back.

As you have stated I will not have actual performance data for my round until tomorrow at the earliest. Do I expect there to be a huge difference over Fred's publish 411 data "NOPE". Since my case is 11% greater I would guess in the range of 70-100FPS adjusted for my 24" vs his 26"+ maybe 50fps or heck his velocity in a shorter barrel I would be happy. Either way not much of a gain but in my case and in most cases if you are starting from scratch I see it as a free veloctiy gain why leave it on the table.

I'm hoping the longer case will help with the heavier bullets if not, nothing lost. In my "opinion" take the correct 400 Whelen, 411 Hawk, 400PDK or 400BFD load them to the same pressure in the same length barrel and they are all basically the same. So we can all choose something different and be happy the animal or more likely the paper target or milk jug will never tell the difference.

Bottomline If I had not wanted to use my reamer I would have simply opted for a correct 400 Whelen, simply for the history. I have loaded for way to many AI's and wilcats to feel that a 2.5% capacity increase will give me a "real" gain. I have used my reamer from 243-416 and my own load data makes me a firm beliver of at equal pressure a 1 for 4 gain is a good expectation from an 06 based case. Fred is in business selling his product I would not expect him to say he saw no gain and I don't remember him posting load data for the 400 Whelen on his site. He has done an excellent job of taking his wildcat family to market, a far better job than Rocky Gibbs or AHR with their Howell line.

I have a 224 Werewolf Killer that is based on a 30-06 case. The case is rebated at the rim, shortened to 1.075" and necked to 224. I use silver bullets. Paul might post pics on my thread on case swaging dies.
Butch