Alright Con and Michael and Boom, we all know I have a serious issue of dearly wanting a .411 of SOME flavor. Lets get some discussion going!

Michael suggested a 400 B&M/411 WSSM. I like this idea! So lets get some thoughts, capacity/velocity estimates, bullet selection.

I had pondered this in the past....Now, if the factory and wildcat WSSM's are getting 30-06 based cartridge ballistics, would it be fair to assume this round would fall just a bit behind the 411 Hawk? Behind, seeing as its an improved case. Maybe more on par with the 400 Whelen? A guy in IN does a 35wssm and his ballistics fall right between the 358 Win and 35 Whelen...but he also shortens the case a hair to meet their stupid requirements. I think with a B&M style case, or even a shortened Alpine design, I'd get a bit more capacity.

Lots of good selections in .410 and .411, I think I'd go with the .411 and open up being able to use .410 cast bullets for the 41 Mag.

Methinks this would certainly have to be Win CRF action, with a stubby 18" light taper barrel. Keep it light and handy, slammin critters up close and personal. I've been looking for a short range handy thumper for quite some time.

Milehigh

OK, I think I will revise my thoughts after a little more digging into what bullets are available, and can be used in .410-.411.

A little trip to my Quickload program, and a peek at Midway tells me there are some pretty good bullets that could be utilized for many different missions. Barnes X 300--Hornadys 300s and 400s--Swifts and Woodleighs-all rifle bullets for more serious work. Then of course all the various .411 handgun bullets for downloads, small game, plinking, what have you. Not sure what your exact goals would be for this.

There are many routes one could go, but since I am already heavy into the B&M series I would go with my 2.25 inch case (RUM) squeezed down to .411. As you know we have the 416 B&M, going down to .411 would not be an issue. I would of course use a Winchester M70 WSM action, and I would go with a 18 inch barrel. The 416 B&M is capable of 300s at 2700 fps--350s at 2450 fps-400s at 2300 fps in a 20 inch barrel. You would loose about 40 fps with an 18 inch barrel max. Going to .411 would not be much different so I would say you would be looking at the same velocities with those weight bullets.

You could also very easy download for the handgun bullets.

With this case, you would have all the case capacity you would need for any of the bullets available. One could take a Win M70 control feed WSM with the ultimate stock and 18 inch barrel and have a very fine short handy, 6.5 lb rifle for this. If you could get one in stainless you would be ahead of the game.

This is the route I would go, but I am heavy into the B&M series so it would not be a big push for me, I already have plenty of brass that could be done, and probably would get Hornady to do the dies, RCBS is a bit expensive, but maybe a little faster on some occasions. A reamer would not be a problem and SSK already knows my style, and I have rifles available to play with.

I would not do the Super Short because of the better bullets I have found available for the cartridge. The super short is only 1.65 inches, and not enough case capacity to do well with the heavy rifle bullets. I also think overall length would become an issue in the WSSM action.

Another route that would also do well would be to take a 300-325 WSM straight up to .411. In your case that might be a bit easier concerning brass. Probably in just a couple of steps you could take it up to 411 and be ready to go. Case capacity would be just a tiny bit less than the B&M case, but it would still be more than enough I think. For ease of brass making this might be the easiest to do. I would still utilize a M70 WSM action and 18 inch barrel.

So there is my two cents worth!

Michael

Well, I suppose in a short action the only existing cases that'll make the 400gr pills useable are the B&M, WSM, RSAUM ... and then I'd only want to see 2150fps. If you wanted to limit yourself to 300gr to 350gr range, then the 284Win case may have some application but may need a touch of improving to get enough shouder for headspacing. The 350RemMag would also have to be a contender with the lighter weight pills and might be able to get near 2000fps with 400gr.
Cheers...
Con

Con -

I liked your idea about some day necking up your 35 CRG...and now 375 Ruger brass is going to soon be available as basic brass for 38$/50, thats cheaper then RUM brass and only a bit more then WSM/RSAUM brass.

What do you guys think about taking Michael's suggestion of the 2.25" case, but using the 375 Ruger case? I'll loose a tiny bit of capacity, but nothing to worry about. I'm not looking for a DG ready rifle at all, and would most likely stick to the lighter 300 and 350gr bullets. This would be my ultimate light, handy deep woods gun. Elk, texas hogs, who knows what else.

MileHigh

Con and I had this all figured out, now you want to be difficult and throw another kink in!!!! Whats with that? Heh!

OK first let me state that I never even laid eyes on a 375 Ruger case. I never had a reason to do so. I think maybe it now comes down to the rifle that you want to use.

For me (me only) I would have nothing but a Winchester M70. So that leaves me with either the B&M case or take a WSM up to .411. Since I already work with, have lot's of basic brass, then I would go with the B&M case at .411. Now if I were not so tied to the B&M case--then I would take WSM brass and go up-I think that can be done very easy.

Now, let me back up some. Looking at the specs on the 375 Ruger, I think there is a good possibility that it would work fine on a WSM action taking into consideration bolt face, body width and taper. The problem is that it is too long for a WSM action! So it would have to be cut and trimmed to 2.25 (I actually go to 2.240 for the 416 and 458). This presents some difficult cutting of the case as 2.25 falls in the shoulder of the case. But it can be done.
This case at 2.25 inches would have plenty of capacity to do anything you want in .411 caliber. I also think there is one very small advantage to it's smaller outside diameters, less than RUM or WSM, for a Win M70 WSM. That would be that 3 rounds would go down in the magazine a bit easier than the fatter WSM or RUM cases! It is possible you could run into some minor feeding issues, but I really don't think that would be a problem.

Now that is all with a Win M70 WSM action. Probably if you went with a standard M70 action you could use the whole case length at 2.58 of the 375 Ruger and just take it up to .411!!!!! That would be rather easy I think. Might have to do some minor rail work, but I would use a Win M70 in either 300 Winchester or such. Might not be nearly anything to do with that.

Of course if you want to use 375 Ruger the easy thing to do is just buy a Ruger and change the barrel out to the .411 and go about your business. Keep the 2.58 length.

Remember that case capacity when above 40 caliber won't hurt you, they download easy and effectively! But if you ever had a need for that case capacity then you would have it!

So it depends on the rifle you want I think.

Michael

Sorry michael I should have specified taking the 375 Ruger case and cutting down like your do with the RUM cases.

As far as a full length 411/375 Ruger, Z-Hat is already listing it on their chamber list lol. BUT, thats what kind of made me think about using that case....if the reamer is available, that means dies are as well. WHich means I (in theory) should be able to use those dies shortened up a bit.

Milehigh

You see there you go again! Read what I said closer. Maybe I did not get it right above. Depends on the rifle I think, the platform. If you want a WInchester M70 WSM say for instance, then I think you can cut the case to 2.25 inches and form to 411 without too much hassle. Cutting cases is always a bit of a hassle, I think Jeffe forms the ARs then cuts them??? I think. With the B&Ms they are easy to cut as the cut falls below the shoulder.

I was not aware of the Z doing the 411/375. Still that is not a bad way to go, easy anyway and would accomplish most of what you want.

But since we are "Wildcatters" and Z has done that, then I would not do it! Have to do something different!

So what is the platform? Winchester M70 WSM--long action--Ruger 77---don't even say remington!

Michael

For any type of short mag wild cat, or hell even short mags in general anymore, I'll stick with M70's. I had a Browning which I loved and was a helluva shooter, but I've since learned working with A=bolts is a royal pain in the ass. I had put a Ruger WSM on layaway, but I canceled that when I discovered the box is only 2.9"
After I got my first M70 WSM (7wsm Coyote) and saw how long that box was, I'm sticking with Win.

I was really hoping I could work with the WSSM length action, but I can see where OAL could come into play. Then again, I'm not looking for a charge stopper. My whole quest on something like this, is to achieve standard big bore lever action PERFORMANCE, so think of the velocity/ft-lbs stuff like the 444, 45/70 and 450 Marlin deliver. Big bullets, moderate speeds, close range work. But, I want this in a handy lever action so I am not limited to FN bullets like the above mentioned cartridges are.

That, and I want to do a 395 WSM lol I was hoping to have 1 wssm cat and 1 wsm cat. Now a 115gr TSX in .257 runs 1.222"....the 411 300gr TSX is 1.23" SO I would think that many of the standard 300-350gr bullets from Hornady and Woodleigh would fit the OAL. Now the .410 TSX and FNS are 1.35" so that might be a stretch, but I don't necessarily need a 400gr solid monometal lol. I think if I stuck more towards the 347's and such that were made for the 10.75x68 I could have a real contender here. IF I could hit 2000fps from the heavys I'd be happy. More then likely I'd be sticking to the shorter 300-350's anyways. Elk are tough, but they aint Cape Buff thats for sure! And at the intended ranges (150 MAX) I don't think a lack in SD is going to make a huge difference when you consider the frontal area and sheer energy delivered close on contact. I mean numbers like this (vel/SD) are on par or even ahead of what hundreds of hunters use each season for smoke poles, yes?

Oh man, I guess I SHOULD mention I DO have a WSM being built on a Rem 700 SA LOL!! But my smith already had the action, and he wanted to do a super ultra light and since I asked for possible double elk duty, we went with the 300wsm. But, the Remmy was the best option to go with for an ultralight, just on the sheer amount of light weight off the shelf parts that can be had from Midway

MileHigh

You must live on a curving road there in CO? You taking more turns than I can keep up with, but I am gonna try!

OK-WSSM You can do it with a 1.65 inch WSM case--basically the 50 Super Short squeezed down to .411. That will be easy. That puts in in all the handgun bullets that are available and most of the lighter .411 rifle bullets-300s-maybe 350s. I will check length for you if you really get serious, as I think I have the bullet lengths somewhere. This would also put you in the performance level that you speak about, and probably with a 16 inch to 18 inch barrel at the most. So this will work within the parameters you talk about.

Now if we go to WSM size action then I think some of or all the above posts applies.

Oh my god-you said the "R" word!!!!! I can't believe you said that to me!

OK heres the deal. My buddy John had a "R" in some sort of RSAUM thing, whatever that is! He was busting to have it made into the 338 WSM that I am shooting. I did not realize at the time that the "R" magazine was that much shorter than the WSM. We learned this quickly, but proceeded anyway. The rifle would of course chamber and work fine, but seating bullets was a problem, the magazine too short in the "R". I solved this by really trimming the necks of the WSM cases back--way back. I know about neck tension and all that, but this rifle shoots great, and with the super short necks one can load anything up to the 225s and it is fine. There has been no change in ballistics or accuracy because of the short necks. If you do a .411 on a "R", you might consider a trim job using WSM brass! It works. It does look funny however.

Can't believe you said the "R" word to me! LOL

Michael

No "R" for this project lol. I know about the box issues using Rems for WSM's, part of the reason the RSAUM is a bit shorter in case and OAL. With my ultralight 300wsm, we'll be sticking to 130 TSX and 150 BT's most likely, so that problem is solved there. If I want 165-200gr pills, got ol' Roy for that one

With not needing the serious horse power generated by using a B&M/WSM/Alpine case in .411, the shorty should do juuuust fine. I think I worked up some estimates on a straight 411wsm and it was making well over 4000-ftlbs, and also generating the recoil to prove that.

For its intedned purposes, 400gr's won't be needed and the 350's might even be a stretch. Well...the 350's for the 450/400, 400 H&H, 405 Win and 411 KDF (411/300 WM, very cool)
If I stick to stuff made for the short 10.75x68 mauser, the bullets have the cannelure placed in a different spot to accomodate the shorter mag boxes. Plus, there are hard cast pistol bullets in the 15-1800fps range for fun or lighter game.

The one idea I had that fits this criteria is the 400-376 steyr. The 416 Aagaard is a wildcat that has been done on the case but the 400 is better suited with it's lower functional impact velocity envelope and pistol bullets. With the shorter tip to canalure of the 405 win bullets this can fit a short action. This will be able to get 450/400 performance. Let's just call it the 400-376 for now. Rebore a 376 steyr gun. If you improve the case you can go to 423... Now there is another thought but I like the 400 the best. Open up Steyr dies, rebore, poke in a 400 neck/throater and have some fun!

as always, boom comes through with a quite simple way of doing things lol but for this project, i think its just more of a good thing then i am shooting for. still a damn good idea, but i think the case would have to be shortened....the 416 comes in a 2.35" case length.

Besides if i did that I would still need a wssm action cat lol ......could always take the 50 B&M SS down to .475.....but then again I have a hankering for a 470 on the full wsm case man I need to find a good sale on some dirt cheap M70 wsm actions!

Micheal,
Are you shooting the ridgy didge real 338WSM as spec'd but never produced commercially (dies were cut by RCBS however) or a 338/300WSM derivative?

The short action 'R' magazine box is sure as hell one PITA ... I only got comfort from one when I had the 375/08, short and squat lightweight 375cal pills made it look huge!
Cheers...
Con

Don't get me wrong, I love the R for what I perceive as its best platform....small bore varmint rigs! Of course I also like Howa for that too

Con

I am lost on the "ridgy didge 338WSM"? I guess I am shooting the 338/300 WSM. Nothing but take it up to 338. As soon as the 300 hit the market I took it up to 338. I have two rifles, both Win M70s 22 inch barrels. Nice little cartridge, best suited for 225 gr bullets.

Milehigh

I have 15 of those M70 WSM rifles sitting in the gun lab? Problem is none of them are cheap! Depending on what you deem cheap I guess. Rifles I bought up to build on.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Con

I am lost on the "ridgy didge 338WSM"?

Michael

Michael,
Local slang for the real one. Here is the link to CIP:
http://www.cip-bp.org/index.ph...=tdcc-telechargement

Somewhere on it are the spec sheets, if you cant find them, drop me a PM and when I'm back at work I'll email them to you. In the spec sheets are the dimensions of what Winchester wanted as the 338WSM, which was on a shortened case. RCBS cut dies in anticipation and sold some, but Winchester pulled the plug on it, but I'm pretty sure some on this forum have those RCBS dies for the spec'd 338WSM. Redding did runs of 338WSM but its a 338-300WSM rather than the 'true' cartridge.
Out of interest, does the 338-300WSM match the 338WinMag?
Cheers...
Con

Con

I figure I have the 338/300 WSM. I did get dies from RCBS, they had in stock, says 338/300 WSM---not 338 WSM.

It's a good cartridge, my rifles are 22 inch barrels and I can run 225s up to around 2675-2700 fps--200s close to 2800 fps--250s to 2525-2550 fps. It is a very good 225 gr bullet gun, 250s are getting a little long depending on the bullet. Of course 275s are out.

Maybe it would come close to the 338 Winchester if I used 24 inch barrels. I think for 250 gr bullets the 338 Winchester with the larger mag box is better, and of course it is with the 275 gr bullets.

This is probably one reason that Winchester did not go with the 338 WSM and why compete with their very own 338 Winchester? I don't care for 8mm, but probably the 325 WSM was a good marketing idea considering.

Michael

Michaels got it, Winchester couldn't match the 338 in heavier bullets. The 300's both put down 2900fps with 180's and the 180 is one of the most common loads for either gun. For the 338 it came damn close to the 225's, but 250gr are just as common for the 338's as the 180 is for 300's. So it wouldn't match up to the most commonly used round, so it had to be scrapped. The 325 at least matches the 8mmRM in factory ammo. I know the Rem Mag can be pushed faster with handloading.

milehigh-con-boom

I may be way off base here, and this is very preliminary first look at something. Back on the .411 issue. This morning I am sorting thru some things in the "gun lab". Somehow or nother, I am holding a 375 H&H case-I think you guys are somewhat familiar with that? LOL. So I got to thinking about this .411 thing again, and a WSM short action. Took my hacksaw and cut a case to 2.25 inches. Fit in the magazine well, bolt picked it up and chambered without issue (in a 458 B&M of course) and looked pretty good--but a 416 bullet would slide in and out. So I looked at 2.5--too long--2.4 I think maybe, but then I cut a case to 2.35 inches and it looked pretty good in the magazine and 416 will not go in without force. Now the problem is I don't have any .411 bullets, don't know seating depth, or length of .411 bullets.

Another issue could be with retaining cartridges in a WSM action. There could be other issues, remember this just come to me about 20 minutes ago. Case capacity appears to be about 75 total grs, so I think that is plenty of case capacity, from a drawing, I have not measured actual.

So don't hold my feet to the fire on this one, just a wild ass guess on my part, but it don't look half bad. If you have 411 bullets-just measure from the point of where you seat to add that to 2.35 to fit in the Win 3 inch magazine-2.295 or so.

Well??????

Michael

Not a bad idea! I think a belted mag case at 2.35" might fit the .411 bullets well. The cannelures are usually a bit far up from what I can tell online...probably because the intended use in 405 Win and 450/400 NE

Guys,
See if you can get a mental picture. Belted brass, case length 2.380". Shoulder at 1.800" with a width of 0.500" and at 30deg. Neck diameter runs at 0.437". Parent brass is 458WinMag.

Sound good? It's called a 411WMS and is the creation of a W. Williams of Odessa, Texas. Must be an old 'cat as the reamer drawing from PTG is a scanned copy!

We proceed on the labours of great thinkers before us!!
Cheers...
Con

Well...it aint a new one, but it sounds like a good one! Should have pretty decent capacity, might even equal the 450/400 NE.....maybe.

Still, a bit over powered for my intentions. Now how far back would we have to take that case to fit in the COAL magazine of the 2.3" WSSM rifles?

Con

Well, came to me yesterday morning. What can I say? Never heard of a 411WMS, but we must be on the right track. Next!

After I cut the 375 I was thinking this is a nice "little" case. In fact it looked so small to me (used to the fat RUM and WSM cases for the last 3.5 yrs) I had to check dimensions-Looked like a 38/55 with a belt! LOL

Milehigh

Case length is going to need to be around 1.65 like the 50 Super Short to fit case and bullet into a WSSM. Again I don't have any .411 bullets, but this fits the 50 perfect. Someone take a WSM cut/trim to 1.65 and start squeezing! I would do so myself, and would have already, but I don't have a way to get the short case squeezed down.

Michael

You wanna make the perfect .411?
10,75x68 brass.
Cut to 2,5"
Neck down to axept .411 bullets, 20 deg shoulder.

I mean, since "practial" is out of the window a long time ago...

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
You wanna make the perfect .411?
10,75x68 brass.
Cut to 2,5"
Neck down to axept .411 bullets, 20 deg shoulder.

I mean, since "practial" is out of the window a long time ago...

No, for this I think the 400-300 Ruger compact magnum is... Good enough for everything and no rebate.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Con

Well, came to me yesterday morning. What can I say? Never heard of a 411WMS, but we must be on the right track. Next!

After I cut the 375 I was thinking this is a nice "little" case. In fact it looked so small to me (used to the fat RUM and WSM cases for the last 3.5 yrs) I had to check dimensions-Looked like a 38/55 with a belt! LOL

Milehigh

Case length is going to need to be around 1.65 like the 50 Super Short to fit case and bullet into a WSSM. Again I don't have any .411 bullets, but this fits the 50 perfect. Someone take a WSM cut/trim to 1.65 and start squeezing! I would do so myself, and would have already, but I don't have a way to get the short case squeezed down.

Michael

For a 50 super short I would just use 375 ruger brass (Same casehead as the 500 S&W) and cut to the same length 1.6", Headspace off the casemouth and use the 500 S&W dies and reamers. Or a tad longer to Beowulf length.

Call it the 50 AR for the AR platform and for this forum

That will give 45-70 plus performance with minimal mods and minimal cost.

Hey boom

Yeah, the 375 Ruger might have been the way to go, but I think in 2005 I had not heard of a 375 Ruger. I still have never even seen one as my lack of interest in it. Nothing bad, just tied up with my own things.

50 Super Short has already been done, must be at least 12-15 rifles out there, die available from RCBS and Hornady.

Any WSM cut to 1.65 works like a champ.

Did you get the photos of the 500??

Michael

I'm still leaning towards the 411 B&M SS

I think it will fit exactly what I want.


Bent - HAHA! Practical? This group of guys?

I do like that idea though! .411-10.75x68mm-2.5"
But dang is that a lot of stuff to get on a case head lol I'd need a Rigby .580 case head to fit it all on!

My pistol, with a 14.1/2" barrel will shoot a 300 grain bullet 2100 fps. I blew out a 240 Weatherby case and shortened it to 2.170, so that it would cycle thru a short action.

If you keep 210 JHP's down to the same speed they make great varmint shooters.

Have you checked the WSSM case to see how much water it will hold?.............at 411 dia.

I like it! Not sure on the WSSM case as far as water capacity, but Michael gets pretty decent performance out of his 50 B&M SS, which is basically a .500 wssm. I want a short range heavy cover round, with a large frontal diameter and decent weight, but it doesnt need to be anywhere close to being "DG" acceptable.

I built this back in "93" and have made 10 one shot kills on deer.........basically a .405 win.

MoreBS

Hey BS-your 41/240 looks very good, I am sure it serves the purpose well. It would be a good choice for .411 in a short action I think.

I can't squeeze my 50 Super Short down to .411 but case capacity at .500 is 68 grs water. Performance wise in a Win M70 WSSM 16 inch barrel, I can run 325 Barnes at 2250-2300 fps--375-385 to 2125 fps--400s at 2000 fps--450s to 1800 fps-500s to 1700 fps. This case is best with WW 296. While I have not taken the little 50 to the field I have a buddy that has one and this past fall shot 9 hogs from 150-250 lbs stone cold down and out,never took a step after the first shot, and 3 deer the same. All with a 385 Rem at 2125 fps. Aaron Carter, who writes for the NRA mags has one of mine and has hunted with it all this past fall. I don't have but one report from him in which he shot a deer at 221 yds, one shot. Which is too far to begin with, but...........

Now milehigh has a big one for .411, while I do not myself. I have a big one for .500 caliber. --5 big ones to be exact. But regardless thereof there would be several different ways to go with it, most very good ways to play too. Milehigh must just sort out all the options I think. We have given him some good options I think.
Michael

quote:

Originally posted by MoreBS:


My pistol, with a 14.1/2" barrel will shoot a 300 grain bullet 2100 fps. I blew out a 240 Weatherby case and shortened it to 2.170, so that it would cycle thru a short action.

If you keep 210 JHP's down to the same speed they make great varmint shooters.

Have you checked the WSSM case to see how much water it will hold?.............at 411 dia.

MoreBS, How did you go about forming the cases and did you use a 405 winchester reamer to cut the chamber?

Thanks, Rojelio

Clymers made me the reamer from 3 mocked up loads.

15 grains of bullseye, cornmeal with a bit of paper over the end.

Never lost a case, they blow out really nice.

No-BS

Thanks MoreBS, I wonder if Clymer keeps records of wildcat reamers that they made and if they can duplicate them.

Thanks, Rojelio

Michael - TOO many good options lol I really like the 411/240...but I'm still leaning towards using something that will fit in the tiny 2.3" wssm action. Just something cool about such a big bullet from such a small gun...thats not a lever action lol

Milehigh

Well I know damn well we can do it. All it takes is to make a drawing, get in touch with Brian at SSK, get dave to make a reamer, send a gun to brian, brian puts gun together, sends samples to hornady, hornady makes dies. You start shooting.

Michael

MHS
how bout a WSM or a RUM case cut at 1.8" to use blunt short 50-110 or 510 pistol bullets from the 2.3" magazine and shoot 750 grain BMG bullets or rifle bullets single loaded for subsonic fun on your WSSM action???

Give it a good amount of freebore for them bmg's

Or for the biggest little big bore on the WSSM action stuff the 500 Jeffery case cut to 1.6" with 650 grain 577 bullets. No expansion needed!

See if you can lob those around 1600 FPS

Neck the 1.6" Jeffery case down to 411 and I bet you got the littlest big bore DG rifle there ever was