Well after 3 years of messing around with my 416/280 Imp I have a load worth the bother of making cases for this rifle. The original reamer was a tad small in the neck with seated bullets so had neck throat reamer cut to open neck area for bullets in Winchester 270 cases. After fireforming with rcbs cast 350 grain gas check bullets the cases will work with my go to bullet the 350 gr speer, and before you rip me for the use of this bullet remember I wont be using this rifle in africa only north america where this bullet works just fine(have used it in my 416 rigby with no complaints form me or animals hit by it) After a bunch of load work up with various powders have decided on 64gr H4895 in winchester cases seated to oal of 3.360" which does 2367 fps at 75degrees F. This load shoots fine seems safe, case life is pretty good so will be used this winter on my 3rd choice draw permit on the nature conservancy's zumwalt prairie cow elk hunt, should see a lot of big bulls a few of the resident wolves and get some good eating meat. Real plus is I get to use a rifle on land owned by a organization that does not like hunters that well.

Lynn, what are the specs of your cartridge, specifically the shoulder diameter and case taper, and how does it differ from the 400 Whelen other than caliber?

the whelen shoulder is about .457 or so my shoulder is .460- base of case dia. .470 measure from case head to point of shoulder 2.150" so not a great deal different. The whelen to point of shoulder from case head 1.985". My case is like the hawk sort of with a 40 degree shoulder but there really isn't much shoulder, yet enough to headspace firmly. I thought it would be better to shoot .416 bullets this was before hornady brought back the 405 with good bullets if to do over probably go with .410 but I have nothing to complain about rifle shoots well and is effective as far as I've needed it to be
Lynn

Interesting cartridge.

I made a few assumptions about case length and shoulder radius but I think this is a very close representation of your wildcat.

I think you will love it. Goes to show great minds etc. I built a 416PDK version years ago. Using my gibbs style 280 Imp case. I've lost count how many animals my buddy has taken with the 416 while he lived in Alaska. Wish I knew you were building one I probably could have spared you some time but probably no fun. What capacity did you end up with? My buddy uses the 340 Woodleigh for everything including a brown bear. Here is a dummy with a 400gr next to my 340&280PDKs and parent 280.


I have since built a 411 version called 400PDK. I elected to use cylinder brass and leave the new version at 2.65" case length. I also built a 375 version with the longer brass. Other than OAL the rest of the difference is basically nothing. So my 416PDK would only have the shoulder slightly forward.



Here is my 400 with a 375H&H and 375 Whelen.

Be curious to see your actual results. I always felt that the shorter case limited my 416 as to max performance. Load data I have shows we left ours at 3.4" velocity maybe a touch higher than yours using more powder to offset the slightly larger net capacity. I would think the 416/280Imp would do everything the proper 400Whelen would do.

I see you are going with h4895 I would add IMR 4895 and RL15. I always seemed to get more velocity from the IMR and better accuracy from the RL15. What data I have from his work with the 340s indicate he pretty much stays with 4064.

I happen to run that 350gr speer through a lee sizing die and load them in my 400. You might also consider cylinder brass. Cut to length size and go shooting.

Again great project give us the rest of all the juicy details.

the drawing is very close to this case design, I have worked with a number of powders and H4895 so far has been the most "balanced" in regard to accuracy and velocity (note which is first) I have read Ken Waters article on his 416 Express (416/350 Rem mag) and he loved RL7 one powder that I have not tried, may do that next. I am going fall black bear hunting where there are plenty of animals so will post how that goes. Lynn

How do they feed in a stock rifle?

The rifle is on a Husqvarna mauser with williams bottom metal and a follower that I milled in the shape of a older model 70 with the opened up(length) mag box feeds as if designed for the case. I will try in a stock FN and a stock Ruger M77 MkII and let you know. Lynn

quote:

How do they feed in a stock rifle?

Boom,
Here is what I found on a FN & MKX. Due to the lack of body taper the normal feed rails of the action will cause the round to cross and hit the far side of the chamber. When I loaded a pointed bullet the bullet would enter the chamber and actually guided the case in. Not the best but functional. A 375 version on the same case MKX action feeds with no action work but the bullet is guiding it.

With a shorter loaded 300gr flat point a normal action would feed most of the time but for sure not smoothly. With the longer 400s like in my above picture the bullet would jam against the chamber mouth on the opposite side. What we did was simply open the front portion of the rails. Actually more like took the point where the feed rails bend in and moved it forward. It now handles everything smooth as glass. I could post a picture if anyone is interested.

It was corrected pretty quickly. As to other action I have no experience.

Thanks for the info. I was thinking a no shoulder necked up 06 case to 410 would be cool. Make the same length as the 405 win. Pretty much a rimless 405 win. I was thinking the original taper would feed well and headspace off the extractor. This would be cheap and easy if it feeds without fussing with feeding issues. A belted 06 case would be cool too but costlier brass and less capacity. Michael458 has had great success with extractor headspacing. The same could be done with a 7x57 for a short action.

Boom
I think you would still end up with a slight shoulder with the 06 case. That slight shoulder is what confused people 400 Whelen. They didn't understand that the 400Whelen had the shoulder blown out. With the sharper taper of the 7x57 I don't think it would work without blowing the case out some.

The 405 case is 2.58" long.

I knew someone was using the extractor to headspace. I've done it during COW fireforming but never on a loaded round.

Simplest thing is build a true 400Whelen, even proper headstamp brass can be had. A proper 400Whelen the 416/280Imp my 416PDK and even my longer 400PDK loaded to the same OAL and pressure wouldn't be much difference. My longer case just allows me to use the cannelure and load to the 3.34-3.36"range.

Shoulder diameter is .441" so Depending on brass it should be only one or two thou shoulder or .441" like the 400 Whelen eliminating the shoulder. The finish reamer should be .444" I think.
Could always run a 400 Whelen reamer In it if it does not work. I was thinking of an 06 reamer with a 400 pilot neck throater. The only thing that would make this have a cost advantage would be to use existing 405 dies, cheap brass, existing reamers and no feeding issues. Could be a good pig gun. 400's at 2,150 and 300's at 2,500.

Or boom you can make it easy. Send your action and barrel to z1r and I'll loan him my reamer rent a neck throater. Hornady has the dies on file and off your go.

Just a question, aren't the 400 caliber + bullet wildcats a little hard to index off the shoulders?

I see the drawings and the pictures. i don't feel warm and fuzzy about what i see.

quote:

Just a question, aren't the 400 caliber + bullet wildcats a little hard to index off the shoulders?

Sorry Mick you have me confused as to indexing. Can't speak for the 416/280. In the case of my 400PDK I have .026" of difference between the shoulder and neck. The 40deg shoulder makes it look almost 90deg. A belted magnum case like the 458 has .2" of belt to stop the case. If I leave a case shoulder a touch long when forming the brass it would take a much better man than me to close the bolt.

If it doesn't give you a warm and fussy then it isn't for you. I can send a 400gr bullet down stream at around 2250 and have brass that is now on it's 10+ loading and gives me 5 down. I can get the velocity over 2300 and not effect case life but if my velocity has been good enough for the 404 or 450/400 for years it is good enough for me.

How much neck body difference do you need to feel warm and fussy?

Michael Petrov in his various articles on the correctly chambered 400 Whelen (a picture from the article is in Boom's post above) addressed it far better than I would even attempt.

Enjoy everything you like about the cartridge. I'm still not warm and fuzzy about the cartridge.

That is why some drive Ford some Chevy. Think how boring it would be if we all shot the same thing.

So true Ramrod.

Done get me wrong, as Ramrod's Signature states “just me 2 cents”. This conversation about a 30-06 necked up to a 400 + caliber reminds me of a project AC was thinking about around a year ago. That was instead of the Springfield’s case, use the 240 Wby case. I don't know how will the Wby would chamber but it sure is easy to head space.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.400_Whelen

Mick I don't take your comments at all negative. If I didn't have some serious hands on experience with both a 416 and 411 I would probably have doubts myself. The shoulder doesn't look like much but it is more contact area than a belt.

I think all the writing about wrongly chambered 400 Whelen helps to raise those doubts.

Bent Fossdal did take the 240 made it straight walled chambered it in .423 and was very happy with the results.
http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/a...VNiZnJbQQi&catid=601

I am glad to see that Wikipedia at least makes reference to the .458 shoulder. Maybe we can end up on the range sometime and you can gets some hands on with my 400.

quote:

Maybe we can end up on the range sometime and you can gets some hands on with my 400.

After thinking about your posts, I’m feeling warmer and curious again. I think your suggestion is a grand idea. What range do you shoot at these days?

Right now I haven't found a good range. On waiting lists for two.

You have a PM but I belong to CRC.

I shoot at BCGC near Bailey.

I Shoot a 10.75x57 which is an 8x57 case blown out and necked to .424". As long as you don't move the shoulder back during resizing there are no issues. That case has a much smaller shoulder than either the .400 Wh. or Paul's.

quote:

I shoot at BCGC near Bailey.

Heck only 150 mile round trip. Man I was spoiled with my 10 minute drive in Houston.

Hell, I use to shoot at tunnel number 1 up Clear Creek Canyon. We shot in all the little side canyons up that road. Not anymore! There is a lot of “No More” in this state. Where my wife shot her first elk, there is a 5,000-sq ft house now, which is not lived in more than 4 weeks a year.

Yeah,

I was happy to leave CA and it's restrictive gun laws, etc. But, I do miss the Angeles Crest range where I routinely shot silhouette and had access to distance unheard of here. It was a very pleasant 20 minute drive and not too far from my buddy Rick's house.

Paul, you are welcome to come shoot with me anytime. Just drive to my house and I'll drive us up to the mountains. It's a nice range. I test fire there at least once a month.