after having several conversations on my 7 mag BAR being rebored/rifled by dan pedersen with several others here on AR, im finding out more about the Taylor wildcats... i"ve got a .416 taylor on an eddystone and love it... dan is gonna rebore a 7mm mag to .416.... i'm thinking about trying a .375.... just because, i guess.... the BAR barrels will stand it... my question??... who's got a .375 taylor???... how about 1 in .423???

The 423 version is the 425 express.

Boomy, my understanding is that the 425 express is based on the 3 wiinie case. The Taylors are based on the original short mag (264, 7 mag, 338 and 458) cases. Kleingunther did a 411 KDF that was also based on the original short mag.
jimacat, I too am trying to decide b/w a 375 Taylor and 375 Ruger for my next build. I'm concerned a/b the longevity of the Ruger.

quote:

Originally posted by aliveincc:
I too am trying to decide b/w a 375 Taylor and 375 Ruger for my next build. I'm concerned a/b the longevity of the Ruger.

You think the 375 Taylor will have factory ammunition produced longer than will the 375 Ruger? Wildcat cartridges come and go relative to factory ammuntion; I believe Ruger and Hornady will have longer staying power in the market especially once the cartridge is fully released to the manufacturing market.

Capo, not really what I was thinking. The availibilty or lack thereof of 375 Ruger loaded ammo--much less brass--has been discussed on AR. I've never seen or heard of 375 Taylor factory ammo. I know I can always get 264, 338 or 458 win mag brass and then easily make 375 Taylor ammo--or for that matter use 375 H & H brass.
I don't think you can handload the 375 ruger from "other" brass. Something to consider.

quote:

Originally posted by aliveincc:
Capo, not really what I was thinking. The availibilty or lack thereof of 375 Ruger loaded ammo--much less brass--has been discussed on AR. I've never seen or heard of 375 Taylor factory ammo. I know I can always get 264, 338 or 458 win mag brass and then easily make 375 Taylor ammo--or for that matter use 375 H & H brass.
I don't think you can handload the 375 ruger from "other" brass. Something to consider.

Actually yes the 375 Ruger case can be formed from belted brass should the need arise. After two-three full loads the case body will blow out to the belt diameter and only thing left will be a thin line. I have a friend that had been forming 30 Newton cases for many years using the belted cases without safety issues and perhaps only a loss of a couple of reloading cycles. Now he only uses the Hornady’ 375 Ruger cases for forming his 30 Newon cases.

Capo... The "Casehead wars" over Newton brass will never end but assuming the Newton casehead was .529" it could seem plausable to make a 450 Newton. Yes it would have the shoulder width of a 400 Whelen but hey... It would work.

RIP was talking about making a 458 Ruger but I like the Newton name better With that fire forming method you could make the newton brass from 458 Lott brass. Heck the 450 Ackley has a shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by aliveincc:
Capo, not really what I was thinking. The availibilty or lack thereof of 375 Ruger loaded ammo--much less brass--has been discussed on AR. I've never seen or heard of 375 Taylor factory ammo. I know I can always get 264, 338 or 458 win mag brass and then easily make 375 Taylor ammo--or for that matter use 375 H & H brass.
I don't think you can handload the 375 ruger from "other" brass. Something to consider.

Actually yes the 375 Ruger case can be formed from belted brass should the need arise. After two-three full loads the case body will blow out to the belt diameter and only thing left will be a thin line. I have a friend that had been forming 30 Newton cases for many years using the belted cases without safety issues and perhaps only a loss of a couple of reloading cycles. Now he only uses the Hornady’ 375 Ruger cases for forming his 30 Newon cases.

quote:

Originally posted by aliveincc:
Boomy, my understanding is that the 425 express is based on the 3 wiinie case. The Taylors are based on the original short mag (264, 7 mag, 338 and 458) cases.

The more I look at the specs ... the more I start to think that maybe the 'based on short mag' was a decoy similar to what Rocky Gibbs used to play at. Open a 338WinMag and you get a 46/338WinMag. Open a 300WinMag to 416cal then bump the shoulder ever so slightly to get a good headspace off the shoulder and by jeez your close to a 416Taylor.

I know one person using a 375 'Taylor' (actually more a 375/300WinMag) with 260gr Noslers and in their opinion it's the best thing since sliced bread on our Sambar deer, shooting flat at range when sitting over a wallow, hitting hard at bayonet range and doing it without pounding the shoulder excessively.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Capo... The "Casehead wars" over Newton brass will never end but assuming the Newton casehead was .529" it could seem plausable to make a 450 Newton. Yes it would have the shoulder width of a 400 Whelen but hey... It would work.

Boomy I do occasionally get "caught up" in the arguments over the “proper” case head diameter for the 30 Newton & derivatives.

I however base my position on comparison of the true Chas. Newton chamber dimension specifications against the 375 Ruger chamber dimensions.

Here’s the deal, most individuals will look at Chas. Newton’s chamber specification of .531” @ .147” for the 30 Newton vis-à-vis Hornady/Ruger’s SAAMI chamber specification of .531” @ .200” for the 375 Ruger and say there is no way the Ruger’ brass can be used in the Newton’ chamber.

What these individuals ignore is that Body Diameter at Counter Intersection (the case body base) chamber specification is .5332” for both chambers.

The primary difference between the two cartridges is the Newton has almost double the case taper of the Ruger. The 30 Newton has a chamber/case body taper specification of .0149645” while the 375 Ruger has a chamber/case body taper specification .007835”; TPI computed for 20” span.

Plus I had email correspondence with Mitch Mittelstaedt of Hornady Mfg. regarding the actual cartridge design specification and the manufacturing tolerances of the 375 Ruger case. Here’s his response:

quote:

Mr. Ward:

SAAMI maximum specification for the rim diameter is .532. Also, the maximum main body diameter at .200 from the head is .532.

For manufacturing specs, the body diameter at .200 is about .529 on an unfired case. The rim diameter is usually .526-.530.

If you send us your address, we can drop a few new cases in the mail, so that you can design your wildcat.

Regards,

Mitch Mittelstaedt
Hornady Mfg. Co

So…based on the two cartridges chamber specification and Mr. Mittelstaedt’s manufacturing specifications…You’ll never have a case fail to chamber using Hornady’s 375 Ruger brass if you first full-length resize the case, to conform with Newton’s greater case body taper, and then cut to proper length.

The only way someone would ever have issues using 375 Ruger brass full-length resized and properly trimmed in a 30 Newton & derivative cartridge chambered rifle is if the bozo gunsmith who cut the chamber used a reamer whose dimensions were drawn from dimensions taken from the notoriously undersize Western commercial brass. These individuals are faced with rechambering using a properly dimensioned reamer or forever use 8x68 brass for their chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
RIP was talking about making a 458 Ruger but I like the Newton name better With that fire forming method you could make the newton brass from 458 Lott brass. Heck the 450 Ackley has a shoulder.

Obviously the easiest way would be to create the 458 Ruger by running a 375/416 Ruger finish reamer into a “within specification” 458 WinMag chamber…instant 458 Ruger.

Or for a 458 Newton would be to take a correctly dimensioned 35 Newton finish reamer and run it into a “within specification” 458 WinMag chamber…instant 458 Newton.

Ok, aside from case taper, the remaining differences between the Newton and Ruger spec cases are the case length at 2.520” vis-à-vis 2.580”, the shoulder angle at 23º vis-à-vis 30º, and the neck length at .492” vis-à-vis .377”.

So going to .458 caliber utilizing each cartridges “traditional specifications” would result in the Newton having a case capacity of about 108gr vis-à-vis the 458 Ruger with its approximate 108gr capacity.

So basically it depends upon the case capacity you’re looking for…as well as maintaining each cartridge’s traditional case length, shoulder angle, and neck length for the cartridge moniker.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Capo... The "Casehead wars" over Newton brass will never end but assuming the Newton casehead was .529" it could seem plausable to make a 450 Newton. Yes it would have the shoulder width of a 400 Whelen but hey... It would work.

RIP was talking about making a 458 Ruger but I like the Newton name better With that fire forming method you could make the newton brass from 458 Lott brass. Heck the 450 Ackley has a shoulder.

As for the Newton versus Ruger, Capoward is right. No need to discuss further.

And a .450 Newton has been made, the case on the far right:



It is made by running a .30 Newton reamer through a .458 WM chamber. The case used is the .416 Ruger.

Was thinking 10 thou taper to give 20 thou shoulders.

If using the above mentioned fireforming to get a .530" casehead it could be possible to run a 375 Ruger in a 458 Lott chamber to get a shouldered case in a Lott length. The neck would be about .62" long if using the 2.8" Lott brass length. Capacity would be about the same as the 450 Ackley.

I am thinking that maybe some of the confusion was by people using 8x68 brass and guns to make the Newton.

I'm running a .375-.338 on a Win M70.

For all intents and purposes, the .375-.338 is a .375 Taylor and I'd reccomend you do the former. 'Smith will just need a piloted .338 Win reamer to cut the chamber and dies and fairly easy to come by.



L to R:

.338 Win
.375-.338 w/ Win 270gr P.P.
.375-.338 w/ Nos 300gr Partition
.375 H&H
empty .375-.338

I've seen this cartridge refered to several ways...but 375/338 Chatfield-Taylor is the original designation I suspect...a 338 necked up to 375. My Load from a disk, one barrel maker/gunsmith and one reamer renter calls it the 375-338.

I think more likely the name just got shortened from conventional people-speak.

You can use just about ANY belted magnum case as long as it is at least 2.5" long...to produce cases 375 Taylor cases easy enough and at least one case maker has properly stamped case heads.

I'm guessing many have thought of necking up the 300 Winnie to 375 but opted for the 2.8" case instead.

Just necking up a 300 Winnie adds a few grains H20 case capacity and the 375 Ruger adds about 10 gr H2O capacity over the 338 case.

I almost built one as a stable mate for my 416 Taylor, but went with "nostalgia" instead and the 375 H&H.

"Your" favorite shooter is ALWAYS the best thing since sliced bread, no matter what it is. ...And maybe you shoot it better because of that...who's to say.

In todays world the Ruger cartridge pretty much hits that "optimum" point between belted/nonbelted, case capacity for larger calibers without going totally to the opposite end, the most useful calibers for "most" large game hunting situations, ease of fit in standard actions, recoil, efficiency, component accessibility, etc,...all arguable and subject to hair splitting, of course

The same could be said for the RUM/WSM/Jeffery cases, shortened to work through standard actions where needed, but all that extra work is done in the Ruger case so why futz around. The Jeffery case made my eyes big ever since I read about it in P.O's book so many years ago...I always wanted something built around that case. Now the RUM case is readily available and I can't seem to figure out WHY I haven't built a rifle based on this case or the WSM????????

I don't have a 44 cal rifle so maybe I should build a 425-430 Ruger... an overgrown 444 Marlin cum short Wesley Richards anyone????

Surely, someone has already thought about that one also or has done one.

Luck