Has anyone ever necked down 45-70 cases to .308?
Lots of 45-70 brass and bullets intended for 30-30. Seems like this would give some serious performance from a Marlin levergun. Anyone have an idea about numbers?

HHmmm a Marlin "levergun"? boom's gonna s**t when he see's that!
OK, back to the question. I think it will give standard 30-06, or higher pressure 308 velocities.

quote:

Originally posted by whizzbang:
Has anyone ever necked down 45-70 cases to .308?
Lots of 45-70 brass and bullets intended for 30-30. Seems like this would give some serious performance from a Marlin levergun. Anyone have an idea about numbers?

Haven't tried the round but using the dimensions from my .35 Greevy Express which has a neck length of .270 you get a case capacity of 60gr water for the .30-70. In a Marlin you are restricted to an OAL of 2.550 and maximum pressure of 40,000cup. Barrel assumption is 22". Try 10% down on these and you will find that you can get pretty close.

Winchester 150g PP .30-30
45.6g H4895 2612fps 39784cup 75% load density
Winchester 170g PP .30-30
44.1g H4895 2444fps 39780cup 75% load density
Hawk 190FP .30
48.4g N-204 2304fps 39925cup 85% load density

Definitely a serious round even with the length and pressure restriction. Better than a .307 Win and about the same as a .308 Win.

Hope you give it a go and post your results here.

Snow.

if I did it i would go the way of necking down the 50 alaskan...starline makes it for not tooo much dinero.

with hornady comming out with the marlin 308 express i would just buy that and save the money for game tags.

better yet get yer marlin to feed 300 wsm carts and load down to 40,000psi. good luck!

I hadn't heard about the .308 Marlin Express.
Took a look at the Hornady website, sounds pretty sweet!

On a related note any comments about quality and availability of Savage Model 99's?

quote:

Originally posted by whizzbang:
I hadn't heard about the .308 Marlin Express.
Took a look at the Hornady website, sounds pretty sweet!

On a related note any comments about quality and availability of Savage Model 99's?

If I knew of the .308 Express, I would have pointed you that way too! Bugger the .307, this thing will really breath life into the old 336 war horse.
The 99's are truely loved by all who own them. They have become highly collectable, are getting harder to find and most will cost you more that a new BLR.

Seems like the shprt winmag case would be easy enough to 'cat on, since the 450 Marlin is already set up to feed essentially the same case.
The 458X2" American necked down should give you room for about 45g of something fast. And cases are everywhere.

I've often wondered if anyone has necked down 45-90 or 45-100? Seems to me these two cases could make some good wildcats--especially in single shots. I have a 7mmx62 that could use the chamber cleaned up (in a NEF) and have been considering using a necked down 45-100 to do it. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!

The only fly in the ointment is what bullets are suitable for such a round? The only bullets suitable for those velocities have pointy tips, and hence aren't suitable for a tube mag.

How about a 35 with pistol bullets??

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:
How about a 35 with pistol bullets??

Got one...Haven't fed it pistol bullets yet... Should be fun, they kill things to wild goat size well out of my .35-30AI...
So far the Greevy is doing great work with 180g Speer FP and Hawks @ 2550 Fps.

this necked to 358 would get you close to the 350 rem mag velocities...

I've thought about necking the 45-120 case down to suit .338 and .358 bullets. That ought to be a nice rimmed cartridge for single shots. It has enough capacity (and could even be shortened a bit I imagine) and the Ruger No1 would be the rifle to put it in. Only bolt action single shots should be used with rimless cartridges, IMO.

You can use the reamers from a .30-.284 Win. wildcat to make your .45-70 .30 cal. Just run the reamer in 2.1", and hand-cut the rim recess. The body diameter of the .45-70 and the .284 Win are basically the same. I've used this to create a rimmed 6.5 for a single shot, and it works really well. BTW, it really would be more like a .30-60 at best, due to capacity loss in necking down, but I'm nit-picking.

quote:

Originally posted by maroontoad:
they kill things to wild goat size well out of my .35-30AI...
So far the Greevy is doing great work with 180g Speer FP and Hawks @ 2550 Fps.

What is your 35-30AI built on?
Neumerich has Win 94 barrels in 307, 356 and 375 Win. You have to have the Big Bore action to run the higher pressures of 60k. When I get some other things cleaned up, I'm going to put a 356 barrel on a regular M94 and just load it in the 40k range.
I don't think that anything bigger than the 356 or 444 case will fit in the Win.
Will the Marlin 336 in 30-30 handle the 45-70 case without any major mods? Does the 45-70 use a larger magazine tube?

I took a 45-70 case and ran it up into a 350 Rem mag size die. It made a perfect 35 cal neck in one pass. FWIW.

The Model 336 would require major modifacations to accept the 45/70 case.

The magazine tube would have to be replaced with a larger diameter tube which means the tube opening in the action would need to be bored larger.The loading port would need to be enlarged and lengthened. The ejection port will need to be opened up.Cartridge elevator would need replaced or altered.

I explored that possibility a few years back and decided it was more than I wanted to bite off.

WC

quote:

I took a 45-70 case and ran it up into a 350 Rem mag size die. It made a perfect 35 cal neck in one pass. FWIW.

brilliant!

with the light pistol bullets you can have a 300 yard deer gun with that!

i wonder if the 358 norma is doable....maybe someone could measure it at about 2" from the casemouth...it seems it would be right at .5" if true you would just use the reg 45-70 reamer as a clean up and rim.



viola! 35 lever boom stick

I'm building a .358 Norma, but haven't fired any cases in it yet. I think you could measure a .308 Norma for the same reading, and really, .338 for that matter, as they basically are the same.

2.1" down on a 338 WM is .513", but the base of a 350 Rem is .503"
So it would probably be best to call on the reamer and have them tell you what it is before you jump.
The 35 Greevy looks very similar to the 350 Rem. The shoulder is in the same spot, but the Rem is slightly larger and different angle.
With looking at useing a 350 Rem reamer to cut a chamber for a 45-70 case, it would leave a cut for the belt below the rim. So unsupported case head. The 358 STA looks like it has the same top as the Rem, so it's reamer could be used to cut the chamber and then load with cheap 350 Rem dies. The 358 Norma has a different shoulder.

Several years ago, I was going to have my Huskavarna 350 Rem rechambered to 358 Norma. I couldn't find any Norma cases, so I took 338 Win mag brass and stamped a 5 over the middle 3 to have 358 Win Mag.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
The only fly in the ointment is what bullets are suitable for such a round? The only bullets suitable for those velocities have pointy tips, and hence aren't suitable for a tube mag.

Also -- 45-70 brass is rimmed, and that makes it funky for a bolt mag sort of action.

45-70 is a "low pressure" round because it's not necked. I'm betting the brass around the base is not up to speed for a high pressure wildcat load necked down.

Pointy bullets in a tube mag are a bad idea, also the Marlin 1895 has a limited OAL that will feed in the action, and it's not very long.

My friend's Marlin won't feed a 350 gr. Speer because of the OAL on the round when the bullet is seated to the cannalure.

You wanna go nutz?

Neck down a 50 BMG to .223 -- for "varmints."

quote:

Originally posted by 45/70 Govt.:
45-70 is a "low pressure" round because it's not necked. I'm betting the brass around the base is not up to speed for a high pressure wildcat load necked down.

The 45-70 has a safe operating pressure of 50,000 CUP (approximately 58,000 to 60,000 PSI) in the Ruger #1 or Siamese Mauser. Winchester 45-70 brass has been tested to 70,000 PSI without failure. The major limitation on the 45-70 is probably the rifles it is chambered for, not the round itself.

The Marlin 1895 can be modified to cycle a 2.7" overall length round. That would accommodate the 350 grain Speer seated to the cannelure. It can also be seated to the maximum length the rifle will cycle and be crimped over the ogive. Or use a compressed load and forget about crimping altogether.

The dimensions I am using came from Clymer's web site.

Base of the 45/70 reamer .5084,38/56-.506,40/65-.507,.376 Steyr-.5083,new 45/70 brass mics .500
leaving a clearance of .006-.0084.The .376 Steyr mics .501 having a clearance of .0073.

The 25-8mm,30-8mm,8mm Rem. mag .375 JRS,and the .416 Rem. mag ran into a depth of 2.110 inches gives a base measurement of .5067.
All of these cartridges have a shoulder- neck angle of 25 degrees.

The .358 Norma would cut a base diameter of .511 at 2.110 inches deep.

The .350 Rem.mag reamer is .514 on the base, .350 Rem. mag. brass mics .510 on the base.

The .375 H&H will only cut about .495 at 2.110 inches.To use a .500 based case would require the 45/90 case (2.4").

WC

You guys are having so much fun with this that I almost hate to tell you that a large diameter high pressure cartridge will not work in the Marlin 336/1895. You might want to read this article by McPherson called "What is Possible with the Marlin?": http://www.levergun.com/Marlin/index.html

I gave your idea a try with a 7mm RM barrel and a Win 94 Big Bore receiver. I shortened the 7 Mag chamber to give a case length of 2.04" and used 338 WM, 6.5 RM and 350 RM brass. I turned the belt off and reduced the rim to .506" which gave a rimless case since the magnum brass I have measures .506" at the front of the belt.

I got sticky extraction with loads that delivered the same velocities as the 7-30 Waters. I was very disappointed to say the least.

If you seriously want to hotrod the Marlin you should read Mic's article and keep in mind that Marlin stayed with a .470" casehead, 47000 PSI and changed the square threads to V-threads for their 308 ME. I think they knew what they were doing!

quote:

Originally posted by 45/70 Govt.:
45-70 is a "low pressure" round because it's not necked.

Not being necked has nothing to do with the pressure of a round. It's how it is loaded and with what.

The 458 Win is not necked and is not a low pressure round.

I believe the idea is to stay within safe pressures for the gun it's being built on.

***

The 2" 7mag sounds interesting. Did you just do this recently?
would you mind posting your loads and the water capacity? Maybe too fast of a powder was used? What was your barrel length?
Did you just feed it single shot?

TIA

I did this about 1-1/2 years ago. Water capacity was 62 grains to the mouth. The barrel is a Remington takeoff and started at 24". Call it 23.5" now. I did feed it singleshot for testing. I removed the extractor from the bolt so I wouldn't have to cut an extractor slot.

I therefore didn't actually have hard extraction but the action was very sticky to open. Some loads with 120 Sierras:
54 grs. H4831=2854 FPS
51 grs. H4350=2855 FPS
53 grs. H450=2909 FPS
50 grs. W760=2918 FPS

Winchester 338 brass did work better than the Remington brass because it held more pressure. It is a lot of work to neck 338 brass down though. A lot of work to make brass period. Especially when they last three firings.

Here is a lineup of 7MM cases:
[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=339610&c=500&z=1"] [/url]
Left to right: 7-30 Waters, 7MM-08, 7x57, my short 7Mag and 284 Win.

Just a quick guess through Quickload shows your pressures should have been around 45k. It looks like you might have been able to get 3100-3200 by pushing the pressures up to 55-58k.
This is all just a guess as you were there seeing what the brass looked like and all.
Would the 284 cases have worked?

Looks like it was fun anyway.

The 284 brass would have been on the small side since the end of the chamber still measured about .510".

I had one mishap with a Barnes 120 TSX that yielded 3140 FPS. I had to use a hammer and a drift to tap the locking bolt open after that one. I think what happened is that I had to ream the necks on the 338 brass and after a couple firings the brass developed the "dreaded doughnut" at the base of the neck. That is, as the thicker shoulder brass moved into the neck it made a thicker ring of brass at the base of the neck. The TSX has rings in it, one of which lined up with the doughnut and so the bullet was locked into the neck when it was in the chamber. It really stretched the neck on that one! Didn't seem to hurt anything. I didn't have a problem with the Sierras since they are shorter and weren't seated that deep.

Thanks for the Quickload calcs. I was looking at buying it but I can't quite convince myself to spend $150 on it. Would you be willing to run some calcs for my next Winchester Big Bore wildcat project? I am using a 30 caliber barrel this time and staying with 444 Marlin brass. Much easier to work with.