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450 Ted Williams Thumper (not a 41-cal "406" anymore)
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posted 19 February 2017 09:39
Thinking about the .500 Buhmiller as a tribute to "The Flathead Genius" of Kalispell gave me another idea.
Another tribute to a personal hero, Ted Williams, aka "Thumper."

He hit .406 in the 1941 season, on the eve of WW II and Korea that interrupted his baseball career at its peak ...
well, you know the rest.

Why not another .406-caliber cartridge?
Not just a lever action 40-65 WCF, or a BPCR using paper-patched soft lead.
Those are mere bunts compared to the sort of homer I have in mind. tu2

I approached my gunsmith about the .406 Ted Williams idea. He said he will consider it, if I get the barrel, reamer, stock, action and some test ammo together.

However, as a further condition he stated that the chamber must be cryogenically stress relieved, and there must be adequate head space,
to allow a head separation with the first
shot. animal



Hey, no lie, that is what he said.
I thought it was funny, could hardly stop laughing.
No disrespect meant to Ted's cryo-preserved head.

I am working on the idea, but it will have to wait until after the .500 Buhmiller is done.
Sorry Ted.
coffee

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posted 20 February 2017 00:29Hide Post
Do not use that "gun" smith.
What are you thinking as to a base case for your 406? Because there are a few good ones out there already. What rifle do you want to shoot it in? I like the 40 cals and have done several versions of them.
 
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posted 20 February 2017 01:30Hide Post
Let Tom do it....you won't regret it!
 
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posted 20 February 2017 08:10Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by dpcd:
Do not use that "gun" smith.
What are you thinking as to a base case for your 406? Because there are a few good ones out there already. What rifle do you want to shoot it in? I like the 40 cals and have done several versions of them.


quote:
Originally posted by Biebs:
Let Tom do it....you won't regret it!



Guys,
Thanks for the replies.
The gunsmith is a comedian, and a good one, gunsmith and comedian.
I think he could be as serious about this as I am, in a while, after we both stop bursting out in laughter everytime I mention it.

Anyway,

I am in the preliminary planning stages for this, just looking ahead ...



... to the next wildcat after the .500 Buhmiller.

I am open to suggestions for the parent case,
rimless or belted for a bolt action.

I am hoping to find a barrel with .410"-groove diameter and .402"-bore diameter.
Average those numbers and you get .406, the nominal for the .406 Ted Williams Thumper.

Hey, the 405 WCF uses .411" bullets.
The 406 TWT could use .410" bullets.

If the 404 Jeffery was named for being a +40-bore 4-shooter (40+4) magazine rifle, which is arguable,
then the 406 TWT could be named for being a +40-bore 6-shooter (40+6) magazine rifle.

Maybe something on the 30-06, .375 H&H, .375 Ruger, or 404 Jeffery case head.
Those are all easy enough to meet the +40+6 criterion with,
and I am thinking a COaL of 3.6" would be coolest in a drop-boxed Winchester M70,
or 3.8" in a CZ 550 Magnum.

I'll post this on the Big Bore Forum to see if I can stir up any discussion, helpful or not, its all interesting to me. tu2

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posted 20 February 2017 20:25Hide Post
Ok, I already got the T shirt on this one; used the 404 Jeff case and a .410 groove barrel. (most 405 WCF barrels are way more than .411). I use only Douglas .410 barrels; easy to get. Use 450-400 dies so no need for custom dies. In fact I just sold one of those last week on AR.
And that is what the 404 Jeffery was supposed to be; Jeffery wanted a bolt action round to duplicate the 450-400. But since Mauser already made the 404 with 423 bullets (10.75x73), that they called it close enough and we are now stuck with a non standard bore size. Remember, in the 1800s, there were about 40 different 40 caliber cartridges.
What you want is easily doable. Except the six round thing; that is hard.
 
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posted 21 February 2017 00:58Hide Post
Thank you dpcd beer

Fascinating history on the British 450/400 NE 3-Inch becoming the 404 Jeffery Rimless NE for magazine rifle,
with a taint of 10.75mm Mauser bullets and barrels.

The 404 Jeffery arrived in 1905, and I thought it was the first and greatest ever magazine-DGR cartridge.
When did the 10.75x68mm and 10.75x73mm, etc. arrive?

At a local gunshow yesterday, I saw an old man carrying around a German cape gun.
That SXS rifle-shotgun had hammers and a doll's head sort of third fastener.
The flat of the action was marked 10.8x60mm for a rimmed rifle cartridge. I forget the shotgun spec.
Was this an old BP cartridge or smokeless?
Descended from the 11mm Mauser?
I'll be looking for some book info (date of origin, bullet diameter, etc.) on the "10.8x60mmR" or sumbuddy who know please post here. coffee

dpcd:

So, you say I could use your easy route to the T-shirt,
just be sure to get Ted's head silkscreened onto the chest/front of my T-Shirt? rotflmo
Or I could think up some other complication. Wink

I started off with Douglas back in the late 1980's to early 1990's. They were THE BARREL MAKER for me back then:
"AIR GAUGED"
It is time for them again, if you say their groove diameter is .410", that is all I really gots to know. tu2
Their web site only reveals that the twist is 1:14" for their barrel meant for the "405 WCF."
I will call and see if they can tell me what the bore/land diameter is, for numerological purposes.

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posted 21 February 2017 01:36Hide Post
I did get through by telephone to PAC-NOR just now, and was told their .410"-grooved barrel had a bore-diameter of only .405". Eeker
Mighty shallow rifling.
And the only twist they have now is 1:16", with 1:28" of yore discontinued.

Douglas did not answer the phone, a little after 4 PM EST. Hopefully they come in early and go home early,
or they took the day off for Presidents' Day today. patriot
I'll try them again tomorrow. salute

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posted 21 February 2017 02:32Hide Post
Douglas quits at 1530 Eastern.
Been using them since 1970; used to date a girl who lived down the street from them. They definitely make a .410 groove barrel which is listed under 41 magnum on their web site, AND a .405 bore barrel, which is not the one to get.
Your 10.8z60 is probably the 11mm Mauser; most German makers stamped the bore diameter on the barrel; not the bullet diameter.
 
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posted 22 February 2017 04:03Hide Post
dpcd,

I think you are right about the 10.8x60R "buchsflinte" or cape gun.
You say guild makers sometimes did variant caliber markings on their guns, bore instead of groove, etc. Or maybe it is even a "wildcat" necked-down 11mm Mauser. Big Grin

It is most probably the 43 Mauser, i.e., 11.15x60R Mauser from 1871, the ORIGINAL Mauser BP cartridge,
first cartridge designed by Peter Paul Mauser, for the single-shot, bolt-action M71/84.
It had a distinguished military career until 1890, spawned many imitations.
It became a popular sporting cartridge and made the transition to smokeless there.
(Source: Ammo Encyclopedia, 5th Ed., by Michael Bussard.
and I can find no better match in European Sporting Cartridges by W. B. Dixon.)

I got through to Stan Taylor at the Douglas Barrel Werkes this AM, to order a single barrel, not a dozen. Wink
Specs are: 41 Mag, .410"-groove/.400"-bore, 1:14" twist, No. 4 Douglas sporter contour, stainless, and 6-groove like my other Douglas barrels, I assume.
It will come about 27.5" long, the standard turned and finish-polished rifle barrel length, long enough for up to 26-inch chambered and crowned length.

So what if the average of bore and groove diameters is only .405" for this barrel?
It will still be called the ".406 Ted Williams Thumper."

Gotta spell it out. As my comedian gunsmith said: old
"Thirty years ago and before, either '.406' or 'Thumper,' either one alone, would have been sufficient to conjure up images of Ted Williams and the sound of the crack of the bat. Not so now. '.406 Thumper' merely conjures up a blank stare and the sound of silence, not even a 'whoosh' as the pitch goes past the ears of the blissfully ignorant."

".406 Ted Williams Thumper" it is then. It has a name, just no basis cartridge yet.
I am narrowing it down to either .410/400 Whelen, or .410/404 Jeffery.

The original 400 Whelen used .409"-diameter bullets when Townie brought it out in 1923.
The original concept for the 40+4 Jeffery of 1905 was for a .410"-diameter bullet, had to be. tu2

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posted 22 February 2017 08:33Hide Post
Or, you could just build yourself a 404 EXP FNB and be done with it Big Grin

A 400 Winchester Magnum!
 
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posted 22 February 2017 08:40Hide Post
By golly! You are right! But then there would be no .406 TW Thumper ... nilly

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posted 24 February 2017 10:54Hide Post
Rescued from another thread:

quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
Mmmmkay...
Have we thought about taking off the rim and adding an extractor groove to the 400 Jeffery like what happened to make the original 404 Jeffery? Existing dies and reamer. 5 down in CZ550. .410 bullet. Wam bam, you're welcome BOOM tu2 we can right the wrongs of history by realizing the true vision of the bolt action DGR emulating the 400 Jeffery because it will be the 400 Jeffery rimless. No head stamp issues! 100 years of load development already done.


Another great idea. Just turn the rims off and cut an extractor groove on 450/400 NE 3-Inch brass eh?
Sort of the other side of the same coin as dpcd's use of 404 Jeffery brass with 450/400 NE 3-Inch handloading dies and chambering reamer.
Make my own 404 Jeffery brass from 450/400 NE 3-Inch brass, eh?

Some references say the base of the 450/400 NE 3-Inch (above the rim) is .003" larger (max diameter 0.548") than the max diameter of the 404 Jeffery (404 Rimless NE):



Everything I have measured is the same for either of them, either .543" or .542".
Fits a .545" +0/-.004" tolerance to be in spec.

Yep, I could make 404 Jeffery/Rimless NE brass from 450/400 NE 3-Inch ... if I had a lathe.

I have a better idea, easier for me, since I own a .416 Dakota rifle:

The Norma-made 404 Jeffery brass that I possess is about .002" greater in neck wall thickness than the .416 Dakota brass that I have on hand.

Maybe all I need is to have my JGS .416 Dakota chamber reamer modified, reamer throat section re-cut to a smaller diameter to fit the .410-caliber bullet?

Or just order another finish reamer for the .410/.416 Dakota aka ".406 Ted Williams Thumper" aka "406 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express":
It is a true 40-bore-6-shooter, that the 404 Jeffery should have been.



Using the thicker-necked Norma 404 Jeffery brass will allow me to use .416 Dakota handloading dies.
Or get some custom ones made to the same specs. animal

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posted 25 February 2017 11:14Hide Post


I was visited by the ghost of Ted Williams last night. No, not like the headless horseman. His head was attached and he wore an Elmer Fudd type camo cap.

He appeared just as I was dozing off in my Lazy Boy recliner, with a copy of John G. Neihardt's book THE MOUNTAIN MEN flat on my chest.
That book is almost 400 pages of rhyming verse and always puts me to sleep after a few pages.

I awoke with a start from a cold breeze blowing over me.

In apparition Ted Williams was dressed like a duck hunter, with Red Ball chest waders and Goretex camo jacket that matched his cap.
He toted a shotgun over his left shoulder, African carry mode. He was careful not to sweep me with the muzzle.
It was a Model 300, Ted Williams brand, 12-gauge semi-automatic from the line that Sears & Roebuck discontinued in 1978. It had a Poly-choke on the end of it.

He spoke: "I am here from The Happy Hunting Ground to tell you I want no association of my name with a wildcat cartridge as puny as a 41-caliber masquerading as a so-called 'four-oh-six.' Look, I understand the hero worship and numbers nomenclature stuff. A 41-caliber commemmorating my '41 season batting average of .406. I get it. But if we had been playing by modern rules my batting average in 1941 would have been at least .450. Let it go, or dream up a .458-caliber or larger Ted Williams Thumper of some sort, and don't name it anything smaller than 45-caliber, OK? Now I gotta go, and I gotta try not to fill my waders ..."

With that allusion to wading the bogs and reservoirs for ducks and decoys, he vanished. Cold sweat dripped from my brow. I could not sleep until I had re-named the .458/.338 Lapua Magnum.
It is now the "450 Ted Williams Thumper."

Surely now I won't be haunted over the "405 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express" and the ".410 Whelen." Whistling



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posted 26 February 2017 02:49Hide Post
Ok, I'll play ball Wink
RIP, you the Joseph Smith of wildcats lol rotflmo animal
Where are the gold tablets and goggles?
So the 450 Rigby short is now the 450 TWT?
I would just use 450 "Thumper" his nickname.
Maybe use 450 Rigby Brass? 450 Rigby Thumper?
I can see being Twiterpated over a short neck 450-338 Lapua for 3.34" magazine length AKA 450 BS.
Before the night is through you will be visited by three more spirits after this ghost of wildcats past Big Grin


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

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posted 26 February 2017 06:42Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
Ok, I'll play ball Wink
RIP, you the Joseph Smith of wildcats lol rotflmo animal
Where are the gold tablets and goggles?

Dum-de-dum dum dum dum dum ...
Yes, chronograph-tested load data for the 450 Thumper is already in my possession, deciphered from the golden tablets using my magic spectacles.
Big Grin

So the 450 Rigby short is now the 450 TWT?

No, it is more like the ".458 boom stick" has had its neck stretched to become the "450 Thumper."
Both will live forever in posterity, and in The Happy Hunting Ground.
tu2

I would just use 450 "Thumper" his nickname.

Agreed. tu2

Maybe use 450 Rigby Brass? 450 Rigby Thumper?

Sorry, not appealing to moi, I'd rather get custom brass made for Thumper, and just use Lapua .338 LM brass until then.

I can see being Twiterpated over a short neck 450-338 Lapua for 3.34" magazine length AKA 450 BS.

Right:

Before the night is through you will be visited by three more spirits after this ghost of wildcats past Big Grin

Now, that is really funny, and scary! rotflmo


Illustrations to be added.

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posted 26 February 2017 06:50Hide Post
The Four Amigos, from over 11 years ago, Jan 2006, when boom stick and I toyed with this idea.
The idea has finally grown up, even if a couple of professional small boys have not: tu2



The .458 boom stick is well adapted to modified Ruger Hawkeye, and standard length Mauser and Winchester actions, with Rigby bolt face and 3.4" box.

The 450 Thumper may be seated short for 3.6" box or seated long for 3.8" box.
MRC M1999, Ruger RSM, Dakota M76 African, Modified Winchester M70, Magnum Mausers, and CZ 550 Magnums are preferred, all with Rigby bolt face:



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posted 26 February 2017 07:48Hide Post
On a more serious note:

The barrel I ordered from Douglas on Tuesday 2-21-2017 arrived at my door on Saturday 2-25-2017.

That is seriously fast work! Smiler

They must have had one in stock.

It is 8-grooved (NOT 6-grooved) and that is cool. tu2
.410-groove/.400 bore
1:14" twist
Douglas No. 4 sporter contour
Stainless Steel
27.5" long
About 1.15" breech diameter
About 0.680" diameter at the 27.5" muzzle.
About 0.690" diameter at the 26" length.
About 2.3"-long cylinder/knoxform section at breech end.
Weight of barrel as is: An ounce under 3 pounds. 2-lbs-15-oz! Cool

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posted 27 February 2017 06:18Hide Post
You can put that 400 barrel to good use and make a 400 Karamojo AKA 410-375HH Magnum.


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posted 28 February 2017 04:24Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
You can put that 400 barrel to good use and make a 400 Karamojo AKA 410-375HH Magnum.


Sounds cool, have a drawing? Does it keep the taper, or more of a 400/416 Rem?
 
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posted 28 February 2017 07:07Hide Post
Almost identical to the 404-375. Just a simple neck up to the 375HH so no feeding issues with a 375HH donor gun and just a few thousandths ghost shoulder. Rebore and use a .410" pilot to make the neck. Fire form or neck up brass is easy. Just as slick as a 375hh but bigger bullets. Here is the 404-375 and the 400-375HH would look quite similar. Karamojo to honor Bell who used the 450/400


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

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posted 28 February 2017 12:47Hide Post
Hello boom stick,

Thanks for livening up the thread. tu2

This is like showing pictures of your kids and grandkids.

That is a really cute cartridge you got there.
Wanna see mine?

I drew a .410/.375 H&H out on RCBS Cartridge Designer tool previously, maintaining all the case taper of the .375 H&H, but it just did not turn my crank.

But your "400 Karamojo" does a nice retro job on the the "400 Pondoro," from A-Square, which is more like a .409/.416 Remington.
The Pondoro uses a 1:10" twist and a .409-grooved barrel for the .409 A-Square bullets of yore.
Said to be good for .410-caliber/210-grain revolver bullets as long as you keep them below 3200 fps for varmints. rotflmo
Is that the same thing as the "Dual-Purpose Magnum?" I will have to look that one up.

http://www.cartridgecollector....-dual-purpose-magnum

Then there is the .400 Holland and Holland Magnum with a .411-grooved barrel of 1:12" twist. My left pinky finger extends involuntarily at the thought.

http://www.cartridgecollector....lland-holland-magnum


I am starting to work some brass for the ".410 Rifle Project."

Here is a nursery photo:







1. 450 Nitro Express 3-1/4", Dummy with HDS brass.

2. 450/400 NE 3" live cartridge made by Kynoch, but obviously different from Hornady next to it.

3. 450/400 NE 3" (.400 "S" Jeffery NE) factory loaded by Hornady.

4. 450/400 NE 3" new, unfired case from Hornady.

5. .410/404 Jeffery Aboriginal, pre-fire-forming: 404 Jeffery Norma brass FL sized in RCBS 450 NE 3-1/4", then necked down in Redding .416 Dakota FL die.

6. .410/404 Jeffery Righteous, pre-fire-forming: 404 Jeffery Norma brass FL sized in Hornady 450/400 NE 3" die.

7. 404 Jeffery Norma brass, once-fired.

8. .410/400-grain Hornady bullet (400 CAL .410 400 GR FMJ/RNI#4103)

9. A DWM 10.75x73mm brass case that was part-way shoved into a .375 WbyMag FL die and topped with a Nosler ballistic tip,
a rare, double-Weatherby-shouldered wildcat. Smiler

10. .375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 2012.

11. .410/404 Jeffery Justified: A 404 Jeffery Norma brass case that has been neck-sized in a Redding .416 Dakota FL sizing die (expander ball removed), needs trimming, then ready to fire-form to a shape like #12 shown next.

12. .410/.416 Dakota made with Dakota-brand .416 Dakota brass, FL sized with expander ball removed, snuggly fits a .410 bullet.

13. .416 Dakota with a 400-gr Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer solid.

I am leaning toward the .410/404 Jeffery Justified for practical reasons,
if that is not an oxymoron.

Using 404 Jeffery brass with 450/400 NE 3" reamer and dies just comes up short, literally.
Throat and brass length issues would require modifying the reamer and dies,
for accuracy, etc.

I think the .410/.416 Dakota is more easily justifiable as an exercise in redundancy.
JUST think of all those revolver bullets at 3200 fps.
Can't go much faster or they vaporize at the muzzle. Cool
And JUST think of the greater sectional density of a .410-caliber bullet versus same weight bullet in .423, .416, and even ,411-caliber!
Oh yeah! Definitely JUSTIFIABLE, and certifiable. cuckoo




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