I'm putting this one here because you Wildcatters have done all kinds of interesting things that are likely to be relevant to this concept.

The idea is that a larger bore and heavier bullet requires a shorter barrel to obtain the required expansion ratio for reasonable efficiency. Now, stretching this thinking a little, if I just take my existing (or aquire another existing and cheap but not good) Lee Enfield and shorten the barrel to carbine length and load up heavier bullets to a longer OAL (round nose bullets seat out real long in the Lee Enfield), just how effective would that be in comparison to say an equally short barreled 303-35 or 303-40 (or 41) with equally heavy bullets (around 225gr at 2000 to 2200 fps)? Meaning, could I get similar velocity with the same bullet weight in the same barrel length and the same parent case but in the three bore diameters?

There are three factors I am considering here. One is cost. The other is effectiveness and lastly, range. Close range, bush drag-ability and cost are primary considerations, but once out with this hypothetical rifle, should a longer range opportunity present, and Murphy's Law says it will, how would these three calibers compare?

Remember that the idea here is to have a rifle I can use in dense bush, deep mud, steep slopes and in the rain. (My fellow Kiwi's will know what I mean. ) The idea is get out there and have fun in the mud and the sticks and the cold and the wet so a short handy rifle would go a long way to make it happen!

I should mention that in the case of a 303 carbine, the bullets could range from 180gr jacketed to 215gr jacketed to 245gr cast. With larger bores the bullets would be expected to be cast but 350 jacketed bullets could be used too.

I dont know of anyone who has done a 423-303 for maximum expansion ratio on a 303 case. Maybe use 405 win cases cut down. Resize some pistol bullets perhaps. what is the max oal?

303guy, well you could neck up the 303 british case to take 375 diameter bullets for starters. Might have to play around a little with the magazine. Or could go to a longer case such as the 405 winchester. Use that case as is or trimto 2.5 inches and neck to take 375 bullets. then you'd have the 375 flanged 2 1/2 british round. depending how far out you seat your bullets you just might have to play with the magazine. In either of the three cases any one of the suggested rounds should allow you to lob big heavy bullets of both lacketed and cast variety. I was looking at a regular #4 magazine and it will take easily a 2.5" long case with some room left over for the bullet. Spitzers may be out as well as bullets with a large meplat or flat surface on the front of the bullet. Round nosed bullets only. My reasoning is that if the meplat is too big it could get caughtup on the chamber was or edge of the chamber.Same goes for the spitzers also. Most 303 ammois loaded with round nosed bullets. There are some exceptions to the rule.Thing speer makes a 150 grain soitzer, maybe norma also.You could always try and note where the bullet hangs uo.And yes I realize that the 303 cartridge is/was loaded with spitzer bullets since the day of the flood. I'm guessing here that you want to use your enfield for cast bullets as you can get molds that will give you much heavier bullets for the caliber. One shooter in australia is shooting 238grain bullets out of a #1MKIII BIG FAT round nosed bullets too.Just my 2 cents worth. Frank

quote:

... then you'd have the 375 flanged 2 1/2 british round ...

Aah ... yes. The 375 flanged! I forgot about that one. That one would take the neck up to the body diameter without changing the body taper. I'm not sure how the absense of a shoulder (which the 35 would still have) would affect case life but chamber pressure should be lower anyway and I could design the chamber to headspace on the neck (not a problem if the cases are too short - they would soon grow to fit). My question really was about whether it is actually worth rebarreling to a bigger bore or simply making the standard 303 with a short barrel do the job, i.e. by using heavier bullets. One poster has said that the 45-70 is good for 200m. That is a long way for a bush (or any) rifle so a heavier and slower 303 bullet should work fine too. I have made some 243gr cast bullets that are actually the same length as the original 215gr bullets but are fatter and have a blunter nose. I picked up some info on paper patching and it seems that I could use softer lead for good expansion and no shattering that way.

I have never used a single shot break action (or any other) rifle in the field (or in this case, the bush) so have not figured in how to carry cartridges on the ready, nor how quick or slow reloading would be. You being a single shot lover ..... ? A short, handy, break action 303 Brit?

Mr. Richard Corbin, rceco.com, has posted chapters of a book he is working on. Some of this material goes into detail about paper patching and its potential. Then there is the use of teflon plumbers tape!

I discovered in an old Lyman Ideal manual given me that the .405 Wcf was the .30/40 Krag or .303 case a bit longer. There was a ".35 Winchester" -- this case necked to .358 that went no where fast.

You don't mention targets. I would be inclined to stick with .303 and heavy bullets just to save the work of making a larger bullet gun unless I was after something like those Asian buffalo that can get feisty, mean, dangerous, etc. For them I would take comfort in a much heavier bullet. Happy new year. Luck.

Are any of the .303 jungle carbines available out your way? From what I know and what I've heard that for some reason they were not very repeatable. roger

bartshe,
Originals are still floating about, I passed up a clean but well used example for AUD$450 around 2 years ago. Lots of fakes as well though! They are starting to bring a real premium as I'm seeing the ex-mil market starting to take off. No more $150 SMLE rifles all matching anymore.

The wandering accuracy seems to be a fallacy, created to ensure that Britain DID NOT adopt the No5 rather than the FAL. I've known a few in military competition and they shoot as well as the short sight radius will allow.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

The wandering accuracy seems to be a fallacy, ...

I would think there is nothing wrong with the No5 that would not be wrong with the No4. etc. I theorize that it is to do with the conditions they were used under - hot, wet and humid. But then again ....

I have a No.4 which looks as though it might be a shooter. The bore is rust damaged but not enough to influence accuracy I think. I still have to test it properly on the range and if it won't group as is I will lapp the bore then shorten it, in which case I will have my "Jungle Carbine". But if it shoots good as is then I will be hesitant to chop it. Having fitted my recoil reducing device, I could consider shortening the butt. It is not a high grade butt. In the meantime, I have bought a boaties clip which I will be fitting to the front sling swivel. The idea is to clip the rifle to my back-pack strap to keep the rifle from sliding off my shoulder thus freeing both hands for 'scrambling' and keeping the rifle on my side. Maybe moving the sling swivels will help too.

quote:

No more $150 SMLE rifles all matching anymore.

True. But I don't care about matching numbers. All I want is a cheapo that won't break my heart when it gets scratched and full of mud! I would prefer a MkI with its dust cover.

I like the idea of the 41-303...but ya'll know me lol just more drooling at a possible 411 caliber.

303Guy

My FIL shoots a BP cartridge rifle that uses a 303 case blown out to 375 , no neck , just a straight tapered case. Shoots it out of a Martini but it still headspaces on the rim . that casetype might be an option instead of shagging about with a poked 303 barrel on a smle..

quote:

... uses a 303 case blown out to 375 , no neck , just a straight tapered case.

Yeah....! The 375 seems the simplest of the 'big bore' 303 based cartridges. Forming cases should be reasonably easy. On the other hand, building a 303-41 would be easier for me as would be the sizer dies. Well, we'll see how it pans out. Playing around with a shagged 303 barrel would be fun and can be discarded later if I still want to go 375 or 41. I would like to turn a 303 bore into an 8mm just for fun. That would mean some serious lapping. It would likely take two or three attempts so those barrels would have to be cheap. But I still want a MkI action.

Hi
A fella in Canada by the name of Ellwood Epps wildcatted the .303 brit. prolly more than anyone I ever heard of.
You might try a search and see what comes up.

Link..http://www.303british.com/id6.html

quote:

http://www.303british.com/id6.html

Yep. It's all been done before! The trick for me is to deside which route I want to take. The simplest is to shorten an SMLE, the most practical is to use a MkI action (harder to get) but I can;t help thinking the most efficient would be a 41/303 using a 303 case trimmed of at the neck, making it 45mm long and seating the bullet 10mm deep for an OAL of 60mm. It might be better to opt for the 375/303 with the same case length. That would then retain the body taper and maybe still fit 10 rounds in the mag. That should work with an 18" barrel plus a little more for the suppressor. But if I can get a 303 loaded up with cast 245gr hollow point bullets with a MV of 1900fps in a short barrel, .... you can see were I am coming from! The thing is, I have no idea how a short barreled, heavy bulleted 303 Brit would perform particularly with long, cast bullets. The short barrel might just not give me the velocity I think I want.

FYI, My 9mm(.358) X 41( LONG THROAT ) will put a gas checked 300grain bullet out of a 16" barrel at 2025 fps. measured.That is a 30-06 energy level. With that same bullet a .358 X .303 will do that at lower pressure levels Garrunteed. ROGER

That is a healthy velocity, bartsche! It is plenty for what I have in mind - more than enough! What sort of accuracy does your carbine produce? I have always liked the idea of a 35/303 - it just seems such a well ballanced, medium cartridge for the Lee Enfield action. Any bore size I decide on will have a recoil reducing suppressor. That will add 50mm to its overall length but in our mud conditions that will be a good thing as it keeps muck out the muzzle. (I went out once and all three of our guns were blocked at the muzzle and had to give up the hunt! The last time I went out, my partner had to clear mud out his muzzle twice while I was smiling - that was my ugly deviced No4. Ugly, but oh so handy! )

Any idea what velocity would be attainable with a short barreled 303 Brit? I suppose it isn't necessary to use such a heavy bullet. I was actually aiming at the same length as the original 215gr bullet and in the fatter form to fit the throat it turned out to be 243gr. I reason that such a long bullet will need an equally long barrel but I am now learning that paper patching would allow for higher chamber pressure. Another aspect of grooveless or paper patching and large for bore is that there is no unsupported bullet to distort under pressure of firing.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Any idea what velocity would be attainable with a short barreled 303 Brit?

With a 215gr. gas checked bullet that will hold together consistantly going down the tube you would probably be limited to 2400 fps. A more reasonable max. velocity for that type bullet would fall between 1800 and 2000 fps. Pressure is not the limiting factor if the right burning rate powder is used.
Powders in the burning rate of 4198 to 4895 are most likely going to give you the result you want. Powders even slower than that are a possibility. If you PM me your e-mail address I'll send you some pertanent data I've acquired. roger

303guy, well if ruger ever came out with a #1 in 303 british I think that I'd probably break my hand trying to get my wallet out to pay for it.
There is a gent on the castboolits website(JeffinNZ) developed a shortened 303 cartridge called the 303 pigmy. About 1/3 shorter and gets great accuracy. But If I follow your thread correctly, you want a handy short barreled rifle throwing some serious weight bullets. Necking up the 303 case to 35 caliber would get you something like the old 35 winchester cartridge, 41 caliber you could use bullets like for the standard 40 caliber rifles or the 416 (saeco) used to make a mold for the 416 cartridges. Then you could try the 44 caliber using rifle(not pistol) bullets. Hornady makes a 265 and 300 grain bullet in 44 caliber.Twist on the last two has to be on the order of 1x20 to get best accuracy. So you do have a few caliber choices. Even the 375 caliber
might serve you well. I would not go below 22" barrel length this should give you decent velocity and get the big bang further away from the ears. I'm 62 been shooting since I was 17 now wear hearing aid. Frank

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Powders in the burning rate of 4198 to 4895 are most likely going to give you the result you want. Powders even slower than that are a possibility.

303Guy,
That's a fairly diverse spread of burn rates ... you'd have available to you AR2207, AR2219, BM1, BM2, AR2206H ... sounds like a worthy experiment!
Cheers...
Con

quote:

There is a gent on the castboolits website(JeffinNZ) developed a shortened 303 cartridge called the 303 pigmy.

Interesting! Thanks for that, I'll look him up over there. (I am registered there - as 303Guy - just haven't posted there yet. I enjoy the folks right here too much!)

quote:

I would not go below 22" barrel length this should give you decent velocity and get the big bang further away from the ears. I'm 62 been shooting since I was 17 now wear hearing aid. Frank

Aah, yes! Well, you see, that's why my carbine will have a suppressor that allows me to use only low protection ear plugs. My design also features an exit cone that helps direct residual muzzle blast down range! (I have been taking care of my hearing - I hunt with ear plugs).

quote:

303Guy,
That's a fairly diverse spread of burn rates ... you'd have available to you AR2207, AR2219, BM1, BM2, AR2206H ... sounds like a worthy experiment!

Thanks Con. The Ozzie powders are pretty damn good! I have just run out of AR2208 which I use in my 303 and 303-25. I now have to decide on my next powder for both of those cartridges using the heavier bullets (100gr 25 and 180gr 303 jacketed plus 220 to 245gr cast).

303 guy, one thing you may have to think on is that all your ammunition should be able to be fed from the magazine to the chamber. If you seat out really large bullets you may have to take that into account. I wish you the best of success. Frank

quote:

... all your ammunition should be able to be fed from the magazine to the chamber ...

Very true. The seating depth I am using is such to fit the magazine with the base of the bullet flush with the base of the neck. That pretty well covers the original 215gr bullet that the Lee Enfield was designed for. The heavier bullets are not longer but rather, fatter to better fit the throat! With the idea of a healthy hollow point, I might need to 'lighten' the bullet to suite. I figure that anything over 180gr at over 1900fps is going to be strong medicine! My target is 220gr at 1900fps or more - that is, heavier or faster! And it seems that iether is easily do-able!