You guys talk so highly of beltless cartridges.
I have been looking at some 376 Steyr brass, and working some dummy rounds through some Mauser actions. Now I can see why it's 60mm instead of 64mm.

I think it would make one heck of an 8mm wildcat. What do you think?

Also, another thing, if you neck up the x64mm Brenekee brass to .411 or .416 and seat the long bullets, so they can be crimped properly, there is a good chance it won't fit in the standard 06 length magazine. Dunno, haven't tried it, but I would know for sure before going forth.

I'm rather sure the 60 mm Steyr/Hornady brass would work fine.

KB

the 8mm-284 would make more sense...but hey...i would do the 358-284 for the pistol bullets

the steyr has the funny rim...they are equals and you would not have to open up the boltface

8-284= 323 kabluewy! hey, it rhymes

loaded long it would outdo the 8mm mauser by a significant bit

I've given it a lot of thought, and personally I can not see the use of pistol bullets in a rifle cartridge. I have never felt the need for real light loads, and for blasting loads and just shooting I just use some cheap rifle bullets. Also, I have always found that significantly reduced loads, or bullets that are way lighter than the optimum for the twist rate were not accurate enough to be fun anyway, and the point of impact is usually significantly different from where I sighted it in for full hunting loads.

Anyway, this pistol bullet in a rifle just complicates and confuses things for me.

If you can say, with specifics, that you were able to overcome some of the above mentioned problems, I'll listen.

Talk about funny rims - it ain't no funnier than the Brennekee x64 rim you have been talking so much favorably about. It's the same.

I always thought the 284 brass was funny because it's rebated. Anyway, I never gave using that brass for anything any serious thought. It is possible that I could change my mind - it happened once before, so it could happen again. I just never had any to mess with and see how it feeds, etc.

If I was worried about the bolt face, before I considered the 284/8mm, I would just do a 8mm-06, but I ain't gonna do either.

KB

yes there is a trade off for ditching the belt on the 375, 411 and 416 x 64 improved.

these 180 grain cheap 10 cent to 15 cent premium bellets will kick the snot out of deer on down size game as well as plinking with accuracy!

shoot bonded gold dots for high velocity game hunting

you could spit out 180's as fast or faster than th o6 and that aint shabby.

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quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
yes there is a trade off for ditching the belt on the 375, 411 and 416 x 64 improved.

OK, I could speculate as to what you mean, but I would rather ask you to explain these trade - offs.

One thing I noticed, in trying both the 9.3x64 and the 376 Steyr dummy rounds in the Mauser actions I have, with 06 length/width/depth magazines, is that I could not get four down, so I see no benefit there comparing the Brennekee case head to the belted stuff. However, I think the case capacity is plenty with the Brennekee or Steyr brass.

The benefit, if any seems to be in feeding, with less alteration to the feed rails, and ramp. The belted magnum rounds just work better with a wider magazine, especially up front. Just try feeding belted magnum ammo in a Ruger, then try the same in a Mauser. The difference is readily apparant.

Another thing, with some Mausers and especially the Mark Xs I have, the belted magnum brass just won't kick out - eject - as chrisply as I like. The Ruger just flings them out by comparison. Using the Brennekee or Steyr brass solves that issue.

I have noticed that you guys brain fart about wildcat cartridges, and come up with some stuff, without any apparant concern about how it will feed. If it don't feed/eject correctly, it is useless to me, no matter how good it looks on paper.

KB

to get 4 down of an unbelted might need some work but doable...

as to feeding...that is verrrrry imp. and i would get a good smith to figure that out.

there are 180 gr rifle bullets in 358 and heavy 180 grain pistol so that is pretty cool.

in the end it is about having fun...unless you are after d.g.

i have put together a few 8mm/376 steyrs, they feed excellent will hold 4 down easily 200 gr accubonds at 2885-2940 fps in a 24 in barrel. thats about 325 wsm ballistics, also done the 7mm,30,and 338 steyrs, i think they make great sense it mauser actions

300stw...

what do you think of the 400 or 416x64 in a mauser? 4 down will be easy, no?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
to get 4 down of an unbelted might need some work but doable...

as to feeding...that is verrrrry imp. and i would get a good smith to figure that out.

there are 180 gr rifle bullets in 358 and heavy 180 grain pistol so that is pretty cool.

in the end it is about having fun...unless you are after d.g.

Agreed......

I never assume the gunsmith can make anything feed. I have had some projects that were ruined and I had to abandon many years ago by making that assumption. So now, I start with a project by meshing the action with the dummy round. I will proceed only if I can clearly see that the tweaking will be very simple to get it to feed PERFECTLY. The best combos require no tweaking.

Usually I screw on an old barrel to make sure the bullet tip enters the chamber as close to center as practical. If the dummy round jams into the barrel at the breach, or any kind of jam, or pops out of the feed rails too early, then I really take a close look.

On a project as straight forward as a 9.3x62, I tried maybe five different Mauser actions, and only one fed with perfection - no modifications necessary. Sure, probably all could have been made to work correctly on that particularly good/easy cartridge, but I found only one at that time that was correct as is. Since then, I have tried the round in several more actions, and found several that worked correctly, but they already had barrels. I have tried it in several Ruger 06 type actions, and have yet to find one that didn't work correctly.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by 300stw:
i have put together a few 8mm/376 steyrs, they feed excellent will hold 4 down easily 200 gr accubonds at 2885-2940 fps in a 24 in barrel. thats about 325 wsm ballistics, also done the 7mm,30,and 338 steyrs, i think they make great sense it mauser actions

Are you saying that you have the reamer for the 323 Steyr? That would be the first step for me to really consider this one.

Getting the dies is one thing, but having to buy dies and a reamer may be too much for me to justify this project.

KB

just sold the reamer on ebay couple weeks ago, i have a rifle for sale pm me if interested.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Now I can see why it's 60mm instead of 64mm.

KB

So tell us, what did you see?

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

I have noticed that you guys brain fart about wildcat cartridges, and come up with some stuff, without any apparant concern about how it will feed. If it don't feed/eject correctly, it is useless to me, no matter how good it looks on paper.

KB

No apparant concern? The 9,3x64 was designed for the M98, and is easy to make to work. While not designed to the M98, the .416 Taylor, .458WinMag and any short belted magnum have been chambered in this action with great succes over the years.
It is sad that you are surronded by such a sorry bunch of gunsmiths, but I really do not see that that should effect other peoples ideas about wildcats.

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Now I can see why it's 60mm instead of 64mm.

KB[QUOTE]

So tell us, what did you see?

Good question.

I have dummy rounds in both the 9.3x64 and 376 Steyr. I seated 285 Mega 9.3 bullets in the x64, and 300 gr Hornady round nose in the 376, both to the crimp grove. They turned out surprisingly close to the same overall length. If I necked up the 9.3x64 brass to .375, and seated the same Hornady bullet to the crimp grove, it appears that the overall length would be too long for the standard 06 Marx X magazine I have.

Also, in trying the feeding of both cartridges, on a couple of my actions, the x64 round feeding off the left side would jam into the base of the barrel at the breech, while the 376, being a little shorter, would kick over, clear the breech and not jam.

Admittedly, a gunsmith could probably make either cartridge work in either action, but unaltered, the results were as described.

It was just an observation, and my conclusion was the 60mm was a good idea, in some situations. It was a new idea to me, because I could never before see a good reason why they made it that way. I really like both cartridges, and given a choice, both feeding equally well, I would go with the x64 brass.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

I have noticed that you guys brain fart about wildcat cartridges, and come up with some stuff, without any apparant concern about how it will feed. If it don't feed/eject correctly, it is useless to me, no matter how good it looks on paper.

KB

No apparant concern? The 9,3x64 was designed for the M98, and is easy to make to work. While not designed to the M98, the .416 Taylor, .458WinMag and any short belted magnum have been chambered in this action with great succes over the years.
It is sad that you are surronded by such a sorry bunch of gunsmiths, but I really do not see that that should effect other peoples ideas about wildcats.

A agree with your first paragraph, but I don't really understand where you are with the second.

I appologise if you took something I said as negative. I'll try to be more positive in the future.

Thanks for the feedback.

Kb

kabluewy...

your pennance is to ship a piece of 64 brass to someone here with 416 taylor forming dies...maybe cannuck will help

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
kabluewy...

your pennance is to ship a piece of 64 brass to someone here with 416 taylor forming dies...maybe cannuck will help

You want me to ship a x64 brass to Canuck?

But then I'd have to ship my shell holder as well.

that would be grand of you...

see if he is game

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
You guys talk so highly of beltless cartridges.
I have been looking at some 376 Steyr brass, and working some dummy rounds through some Mauser actions. Now I can see why it's 60mm instead of 64mm.

I think it would make one heck of an 8mm wildcat. What do you think?

Also, another thing, if you neck up the x64mm Brenekee brass to .411 or .416 and seat the long bullets, so they can be crimped properly, there is a good chance it won't fit in the standard 06 length magazine. Dunno, haven't tried it, but I would know for sure before going forth.

I'm rather sure the 60 mm Steyr/Hornady brass would work fine.

KB

Kabluewy, I knew I seen it before, the 8mm Steyr!

It's also of the improved kind.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

A agree with your first paragraph, but I don't really understand where you are with the second.

I appologise if you took something I said as negative. I'll try to be more positive in the future.

Thanks for the feedback.

Kb

Kb, no worries, man!
I was refering to this statement:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:


I never assume the gunsmith can make anything feed. I have had some projects that were ruined and I had to abandon many years ago by making that assumption.

So I just felt sorry for your lousy gunsmiths, and never intended to sound aggrivated.

Cheers!

quote:

Originally posted December 2005 by 300stw: Re 8mm Steyr
I am in the process of having Dave Kiff build a reamer right now and have a Mauser action Douglas barrel and high tech stock waiting to go together. I am hoping for 2900fps with a 200 bullet, more case capacity than a 06 improved case, will let you know in a month or so.

I have done 4 376 Steyr on Mauser actions, little bit of metal off forward part of rails and they feed slick.........

I had Dave Kiff make a wildcat reamer for me in 9.3x338, which worked out great. I sure wish I had found out about your 323 Steyr reamer before you sold it.

Where did you get the dies?

Oh yes, in the reference on the past posting, the guy said he had to make two passes with forming dies, then a FL die to neck it down to accept 323 bullets. That sounds like a lot of trouble. What was your experience in getting the brass down to the correct neck?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:
It's also of the improved kind.

the 8mm Steyr Improved! https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=718102163#718102163

This is an example of what I wouldn't do with a Mauser. As the guy explained he was having some feeding issues, but he still had confidence he could tweak it out satisfactorily.

I worked with some A.I. cartridges, and had the same issues. Never more.

What happens is that you start out with one of these improved cartridges, and think I'll work out the feeding issues later, and it never happens. Or when the Smith tries he is not 100% successful, then you are stuck with a great idea that jams.

That was my point earlier, that now I always reach assurance that the cartridge will feed correctly - full magazine - before I proceed. That way I don't have to assume anything about whether the gunsmith can get it to feed correctly. I already know it will work from the beginning. Sometimes I practically wear out some dummy rounds working it through the action for assurance, while waiting for the project to ratchet up to number one on the project list.

As far as gunsmiths go - I have used the services of several over the years. They all had issues. Only one has proven 98% satisfactory. The guy I have been doing business with over 20 years is in Kenai Alaska- Gator Guns - and he has not dissappointed me in a long time, and then it was only a minor thing. The only issue I have with him is that it takes a long time to get anything back, but when he is finished it works. Another thing - he keeps me out of trouble, because I have learned to trust him and listen when he says something is not a good idea. He will not tackle jobs , at least for me, that have a risky prospect of less than 100% satisfaction. He doesn't like to do bolt handles for example, so I find another way, like replacing the entire bolt, since he doesn't have a problem lapping it in.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:

KB, no worries, man!
I was refering to this statement:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

I never assume the gunsmith can make anything feed. I have had some projects that were ruined and I had to abandon many years ago by making that assumption.

So I just felt sorry for your lousy gunsmiths, and never intended to sound aggrivated.

Cheers!

I didn't mean to imply that my gunsmiths were lousy. What I was trying to say is that there are action/cartridge combos that are doomed to fail, even in the hands of a good gunsmith. My definition of failure in this discussion is jams. It has to feed very - very close to 100%. The proper way to increase the odds of success, IMO, is to take a close look at the feeding prospect of the combo, or consult closely with a gunsmith early on in the project, rather than just assuming it can all be made to work out somehow by the gunsmith.

I liked the looks of the Dakota cartridges for example, and seriously considered them, but I just was not happy with the initial prospects of that 100% feeding goal - with the actions I had available to me. I was not willing to buy a special action for the cartridge.

The 375 Ruger cartridge for example, gives me a little heart burn because it has so little taper from back to front, and the shoulder is so steep. I think that one may be OK, because I'm sure the Ruger factory rifls have all the feeding issues resolved. It's the rebarreling jobs that I'm talking about. I wrote off all the WSM and SRUMs early on, and they will never make my acceptable list. I would never ask a gunsmith to make my favorite WSM feed in a Mauser, and I wouldn't trust one that would accept the job anyway, because I don't think they are a good combo. Some of the factory rifles in those cartridges may be fine, but I've never looked.

KB

OK, you guys are so persuasive.

I found a pre-fit, long chambered barrel and a set of dies in 8x68S, at a reasonable price, which I think I can later sell and not lose anything, if I change my mind. I think I'll be happy with that cartridge, from everything I've read about it, so I think I'll get that, and then start looking for a suitable Mauser action.

At least that way, I don't have to buy a reamer, or a set of custom dies, or worry about tripple forming brass to get the neck right, plus there is good load data on this cartridge.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
OK, you guys are so persuasive.

I found a pre-fit, long chambered barrel and a set of dies in 8x68S, at a reasonable price, which I think I can later sell and not lose anything, if I change my mind. I think I'll be happy with that cartridge, from everything I've read about it, so I think I'll get that, and then start looking for a suitable Mauser action.

At least that way, I don't have to buy a reamer, or a set of custom dies, or worry about tripple forming brass to get the neck right, plus there is good load data on this cartridge.

KB

I'd like an 8x68S myself. Slick feeding is written all over it! The only problem in Canada is cases. We can buy the dies easy enough but hard to find cases!

I think the trick is going to be finding a suitable action. I want to stay with a Mauser, and I have a few ideas of how to solve the length problem. Might cost a few $ though.

I spoke with the guy at Huntington, and he said he sells a lot of RWS brass for this cartridge. He said it is almost as popular as the 9.3x62. I don't think this cartridge will fade completely away, and may become more popular, like the 9.3x62 did.

For many years, I considered one of the 300 magnums, but just could not muster up enough interest to buy one. I couldn't think of anything to do with one that I didn't feel comfortable doing with my 30-06. I did get a 300 H&H, and shoot it sometimes, and like it, but it's a switch barrel, and my other barrel is 375, which I leave attached instead. And, honestly I reach more and more often for my 308 instead of the 06 anyway.

To my thinking, the 8x68S offers the notch above the 06 performance, that the 300 mags just don't quite get there. It's a neat looking cartridge, with no belt.

KB

You have chosen wisely . . .

I plan on building a rifle in 8x68S for my "final" project at the gunsmithing school I'm attending. The reamer, gauges, and barrel should be arriving soon. I firmly believe this is one of the finest medium bore cartridges ever developed. Powerful, flat shooting, non-belted, and doesn't require any drastic alterations to bolt-face, magazine box, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by pinotguy:
You have chosen wisely . . .

I plan on building a rifle in 8x68S for my "final" project at the gunsmithing school I'm attending. The reamer, gauges, and barrel should be arriving soon. I firmly believe this is one of the finest medium bore cartridges ever developed. Powerful, flat shooting, non-belted, and doesn't require any drastic alterations to bolt-face, magazine box, etc.

Awesome! Which action?

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:

quote:

Originally posted by pinotguy:
You have chosen wisely . . .

I plan on building a rifle in 8x68S for my "final" project at the gunsmithing school I'm attending. The reamer, gauges, and barrel should be arriving soon. I firmly believe this is one of the finest medium bore cartridges ever developed. Powerful, flat shooting, non-belted, and doesn't require any drastic alterations to bolt-face, magazine box, etc.

Awesome! Which action?

This will be on an Interarms Mark X action. It's standard length with a standard bolt-face so some changes will be in order to ensure proper case head support. I'm getting pretty excited about it as time's gone on.

quote:

Originally posted by pinotguy:

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:

quote:

Originally posted by pinotguy:
You have chosen wisely . . .

I plan on building a rifle in 8x68S for my "final" project at the gunsmithing school I'm attending. The reamer, gauges, and barrel should be arriving soon. I firmly believe this is one of the finest medium bore cartridges ever developed. Powerful, flat shooting, non-belted, and doesn't require any drastic alterations to bolt-face, magazine box, etc.

Awesome! Which action?

This will be on an Interarms Mark X action. It's standard length with a standard bolt-face so some changes will be in order to ensure proper case head support. I'm getting pretty excited about it as time's gone on.

pintoguy

I have a 6,5x68S AI. I just love it. But I'm still doing fireform loads.

Do you know any loads for this puppy? It's a 98 Mauser action. I just bought the action at a gun show, no stock included. One of these day I'll find some decent furniture for it.

The 120's and 129 bullets really shoot great in it.

If you could help with the loads I'd appreciate it.

Where are you going to set up shop once you graduate?

I have 2 BRNO actions in the basement just praying for a project and barrels. Hint. Hint.

Best wishes, Bill

quote:

Originally posted by STINGER:

quote:

Originally posted by pinotguy:

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:

quote:

Originally posted by pinotguy:
You have chosen wisely . . .

I plan on building a rifle in 8x68S for my "final" project at the gunsmithing school I'm attending. The reamer, gauges, and barrel should be arriving soon. I firmly believe this is one of the finest medium bore cartridges ever developed. Powerful, flat shooting, non-belted, and doesn't require any drastic alterations to bolt-face, magazine box, etc.

Awesome! Which action?

This will be on an Interarms Mark X action. It's standard length with a standard bolt-face so some changes will be in order to ensure proper case head support. I'm getting pretty excited about it as time's gone on.

pintoguy

I have a 6,5x68S AI. I just love it. But I'm still doing fireform loads.

Do you know any loads for this puppy? It's a 98 Mauser action. I just bought the action at a gun show, no stock included. One of these day I'll find some decent furniture for it.

The 120's and 129 bullets really shoot great in it.

If you could help with the loads I'd appreciate it.

Where are you going to set up shop once you graduate?

I have 2 BRNO actions in the basement just praying for a project and barrels. Hint. Hint.

Best wishes, Bill

Bill,

I'd love to have a 6.5x68 someday myself. As it stands right now though, that project will be a ways off. Unfortunately, I don't have any reloading data for the 6.5x68 (or the 8x68S for that matter).

In terms of where I'll end up, that's unknown for now. I'd like to stay out West, but we'll see.

Those BRNO actions will make fine rifles someday.