I like ur style, RIP. roger

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The 6.5 Creedmoor has a "Weatherbyesque" throat:
Parallel-Sided-Free-Bore diameter only .0005" over bullet diameter: 0.2645"
Parallel-Sided-Free-Bore length greater than one-half of bullet diameter: 0.1992"
Leade Angle: 1.5 degrees.



It is gratifying to know that this sort of throat does so well on the 6.5 Creedmoor, and it is just the sort of throat as on most of my wildcats. Now for the 26 Rip ...

Trust those computer printouts but verify with a leade pencil on paper:

Rip,

Shouldn't "a" on your graph be 1/2 the groove diameter +.0005?

I'm curious???

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
I like ur style, RIP. roger

Thanks, Roger. We are of the same school:

Karl.
It is exactly as it is shown.
No heed of tolerances for this absolute calculation.
The step down shown as "a" is from 1/2 of the parallel-sided-free-bore diameter (.2645") to 1/2 of the bore diameter (.256").

a = (0.5)(0.26450") - (0.5)(0.25600") = 0.13225" - 0.12800" = 0.00425"

That step down occurs over the length of the leade, shown as "b" which is calculated from the known "a.".
"b" is the length the bullet travels from the end of the parallel-sided-free-bore until the "partial" rifling in the leade completely reconstitutes at bore diameter: End of the throat, start of fully rifled barrel untouched by chamber reamer.


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quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
I like ur style, RIP. roger

Thanks, Roger. We are of the same school:

Karl.
It is exactly as it is shown.
No heed of tolerances for this absolute calculation.
The step down shown as "a" is from 1/2 of the parallel-sided-free-bore diameter (.2645") to 1/2 of the bore diameter (.256").
That step down occurs over the length of the leade.


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I gotcha now! I should have looked a lil harder! But I have programs that figure that stuff out for me - that is how I drew the reamer for my AR15 that PTG made for me (you've seen a group from!).

Roger and I still know how to use pencil and paper.


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quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Roger and I still know how to use pencil and paper.


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I don't!

But I have a serious Texas Instruments Nspire CAS (computer algebra system) color graphing calculator that would stun you with what it can do!

quote:

Originally posted by Quick Karl:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Roger and I still know how to use pencil and paper.


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I don't!

But I have a serious Texas Instruments Nspire CAS (computer algebra system) color graphing calculator that would stun you with what it can do!

Well, I have a slide rule in a leather scabbard with belt clip for swag!
I had a course in how to use a slide rule in "Engineering Fundamentals" in 1972.
In 1974 I was learning about Fortran and programming a card-reader deck to simulate a game of baseball on the mainframe ... and about the same time Texas Instruments was coming out with "programmable" pocket calculators ... I think you had to stick some tiny little cards into those to program them.

As you were ...

Karl has kindly copied this big and ugly post below, so I will save bandwidth by deleting it here.

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A Ruger stainless Hawkeye that used to be a 300 WinMag is now the prime donor candidate.
It fits and feeds my 26 Ripmoor dummies slick as owl poop.
The magazine box is actually a full 3.4" long inside.
Bullets long-loaded to 3.395" C.O.L. are a go.





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quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Dave and Dara are on it!
Will post the "official" reamer drawing for the 26 Ripmoor when available.

A stainless Winchester M70 with B&C Medalist sort of stock seems to be in danger of rebarreling.
Like on one of the SC factory "M70 Extreme Weather" .338 WinMag rifles.
A simple barrel switch would do nicely:



Or a Ruger M77 MkII or Hawkeye ... 7mmRM, 300WinMag, .338WinMag, .375 Ruger, etc., many possibilities ...



With an H-S Precision stock:

https://www.hsprecision.com/shop2/rifle-stocks/ruger/




What a joy it will be to shoot, night and day versus this:



Any 6.5 afficianados have a barrel maker to recommend?

My working ideas:

Stainless.

Fluted: What is the minimum contour for fluting in .264-caliber stainless barrel?
With a .375-caliber it is #6 sporter.

26" finish length.

1:8" twist.

5R versus 6-groove?
Any good barrel is a good barrel.


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Gary Schneider
602-525-9574

Makes excellent hand-lapped 5P polygon barrels.

Give him time - he might be in Alaska, hunting...

Well, then I will start by calling Krieger Monday.
My first choice is a "#4-Heavy Sporter" stainless steel, 5R rifling, 1:8" twist.
That is the minimum weight stainless barrel in 6.5mm caliber that Krieger will make,
though they will make a "#0-Featherweight" contour for 6.5mm caliber in chrome moly.

#4 is 0.670" at 26"-finish-length muzzle diameter.
1.250" breech diameter and 27" blank length. Comparative weight about 3.5 pounds.
#0 is 0.560" at 22" muzzle diameter. Comparative weight is about 2.0 pounds, I assume in 30-cal for comparison purposes.

I doubt that I can get any lighter from Kreiger by fluting a heavier contour for 6.5mm caliber, but will ask what the minimum contour is that can be fluted, in stainless steel, 6.5mm caliber.


I have tried my 26 Ripmoor dummies in many different Ruger Hawkeyes, and all but one early make .375 Ruger "Alaskan" allowed good feeding with 3.395" C.O.L.

I am still scratching my head over that one rifle.
Dented box?
Of course I could simply keep the C.O.L. down to the standard 3.340" and it would work in any Hawkeye of standard/"long" action with a .532" bolt face.


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26 Ripmoor Log Stardate 201604251525:

The die is cast:



Dave Manson's drawing for the finish reamer to be produced is shown above.
He shortened the shoulder by .001" and lengthened the neck by .001" to make it work.
Of course I left that little fly in the ointment to verify that he was checking everything.
We have crossed the Rubicon.

Here is the skinny on the Krieger barrel fluting:
To flute a stainless 6.5mm barrel, the minimum weight would require a "Modified #5-Bull Sporter" contour that has a greater neck diameter but same muzzle diameter as the usual "#5-Bull Sporter" contour.
It would end up a little heavier than if a standard "#4-Heavy Sporter" contour is selected.

Therefore I am going with the NON-fluted, stainless #4, with 5R rifling, 1:8" twist, 27" blank to finish at 26" length, where the muzzle diameter will be 0.670".

But there is moor, the 30 Ripmoor:

I have this old Pre-64 Winchester M70 "parts gun" that started life as a 30-06 in 1950.
The bolt face was opened up to fit the 300 WinMag and it was rebarreled to 300 WinMag with gunsmith name and chambering finely stamped (no crookedness in alignment) on barrel:
"300 WIN Mag"
above
"C. GROSSMAN""

The barrel is 24" long, chrome moly, #3-Medium Sporter contour, conforming closely to the Krieger contour, should be 3.0 pounds at 24" finish length.
The barrel is highly polished and beautifully blued, with a banded Lyman front sight with patridge/sourdough blade and gold insert.
I have shot it and it is accurate, in the glass bedded walnut stock that is a late-1950's Winchester M70 factory stock.
Yep, this is definitely a mix and match "parts" gun.

Shortening the barrel at the breech and rechambering to 30 Ripmoor, with 23" barrel, is conceivable.
The "C. GROSSMAN"" could be retained on the left side of the barrel, and the remnant "300 WIN" could be X-ed over.
The right side of the barrel could then be stamped
"30 RIPMOOR"
above
"R. MCGEE"
should he decide to accept this mission.
Or it could be rebarreled and be a switch-barrel 300 WinMag + 30 Ripmoor.

That is my story and I am sticking to it.




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quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The .375 Ruger necked down to .264-caliber would be slightly slimmer...

So the goal is to have a 26 nosler with a base that's 0.015" smaller? Does a rebate of 0.007" (per side) cause feeding problems? Is Ruger brass better or more available? I'm not criticizing, I'm just trying to understand your goals for the project. I've done a few wildcats, so I know how much fun they are. Besides rimfire, I can't remember the last time I actually bought ammunition. Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by jpl:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The .375 Ruger necked down to .264-caliber would be slightly slimmer...

Hi jpl, thanks for the post.

So the goal is to have a 26 nosler with a base that's 0.015" smaller?

The goal? No goal. The driver here is just to have fun. Riding shotgun is the desire for a good cartridge. Practical considerations are just annoying backseat drivers.

Does a rebate of 0.007" (per side) cause feeding problems?

It may contribute to a bolt override and failure to pick up a cartridge from the magazine. Why invite Murphy to ride in the backseat?

Is Ruger brass better or more available?

Hornady .375 Ruger brass is of excellent quality and is way less expensive and way more plentiful than 26 Nosler brass. Finding 26 Nosler brass at over 60 bucks per quantity of 25 was a bit repellant one day at the local emporium.

I'm not criticizing, I'm just trying to understand your goals for the project. I've done a few wildcats, so I know how much fun they are.

Well there you go, that is about all the answer I can give also.

Besides rimfire, I can't remember the last time I actually bought ammunition. Good luck.

Thanks again!


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Nothing wrong with a Ruger Hawkeye. I like them.
My one previous Rugercat, the ".395 Ruger Max," was named for prof242, member here, he and his buddy have them too.
It is a straight neck-up of the .375 Ruger to .395 caliber, no other changes:



McGowen #4 sporter contour barrel:



My first load testing with this rifle produced good accuracy for the 50-yard load chronographing, using the Leupold 2.5-8x36mm scope with B&C reticle, in Ruger rings:





It did that in the Tupperware stock, with the .395-cal/330-grainer from S&H:









The 26 Ripmoor will go into this HS Precision stock with full bedding block, picked up years ago at Sportsman's Whorehouse retail store:









The Clan Ripmoor: .264, .308, .338, .408













The Clan Ruger: .375, .395, .416, .423












An eminent "Gathering of the Clans" is imminent.


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6.5mm or .264" caliber, .256" bore and .264" groove, whatever you call it, it is magic, aye.
Adequate medicine for elephant or squirrel, aye.

While waiting for the 26 Ripmoor parts ...




Here is a more strict application of the 6.5 Creedmoor neck and shoulder to another case, the 30-06 cartridge case:

The 26 Rip Less:



Ought to make a great basis for cleaning up chambers all the way to 400 Whelen ... it has .001" less body taper than a 25-06 Ackley Improved.


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IIRC the 40 Newton was .408" diameter bullet. The Ruger case is almost identical case head so your cart will be of similar performance.

Unlucky genius Charles Newton: WWI was a killer!

Ah so, the 40 Newton: You see everything from .405 to .411, but mostly .408-caliber.

There seems to be typographical errors and nonsense almost everywhere you look.

Here is a nice try but check the numbers on the drawing from Lawrence Wales' excellent book.
This is a brief review of the book, extract snagged from the internet: Good book.





The Ammo Encyclopedia 5th Ed. has a tableau in which the cartridge is claimed to push a .405-caliber, 301-grain bullet at 3040 fps.
The drawing they show has a .406-caliber bullet.

I have summarized as best I can on the RCBS Cartridge Designer the above findings, and copied the specs from AmmoGuide (submitted there by AR member Jim Ward).
Plus the "40 Ripmoor" that might ought to be called the ".408 Ripmoor" for clarity:




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RIP
Have or can you run the 33 Ripmoor in quick load with 225gn bullets. 24" tube.
A 3.6" mag box ina M70 would help too.

Hi DJS,
Since you asked, I dusted off my 2012 version of QL:

33 Ripmoor
24" barrel
3.600" C.O.L.
.338-cal/225-grain Barnes TSX FB

Norma MRP: 87.7 grains = 104% filling (mildly compressed load) Maximum 65,000 psi >>> 3043 fps

ADI AR 2213: 86.0 grains = 105% filling (mildly compressed load) Maximum 65,000 psi >>> 3006 fps

For comparison, the Barnes Reloading Manual Number 4, for the .338 RUM with same bullet and same 24" barrel, with comparable 3.575" C.O.A.L., gives these maximum loads:
Ramshot Magnum (Big Boy): 97.5 grains (96% load density) >>> 3066 fps
RL 22: 89.5 grains (95% load density) >>> 3057 fps
Pretty close.
Not bad since some think the .338 RUM is so much better than the .338 Lapua Magnum.


So a Winchester M70 .338 WinMag would make a dandy 33 Ripmoor with +3.600" box:
Pop out the spacer at the back of the magazine box (drill out the spot welds in the sheet metal).
Shorten the ejector.
Then a simple rechambering.
33 Ripmoor cleans up .338 WinMag chamber with no setback of barrel needed.
Voila!

That may be the best way to go for the entire Clan Ripmoor, make them all 3.600" COL.

Save the 3.4"-box-length Ruger M77 Hawkeyes for the Clan Rip.

That reminds me. The Clan Rip, Clan Lapua, Clan Rigby and a couple of .395-caliber gypsies (rimmed and belted cartridges)
will also be attending the imminent, eminent "Gathering of the Clans" along with the Clan Ripmoor and the Clan Ruger.



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Manson reamer and Krieger barrel were both ordered on 4-25-16.
7-1/2 weeks later they both arrived on the same UPS truck, what a coincidence!
And I got a free screwdriver with the reamer:







And a free catalog was stuffed into the reamer package, last page of that catalog:




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quote:

Originally posted by RIP:



I had a course in how to use a slide rule in "Engineering Fundamentals" in 1972.
In 1974 I was learning about Fortran and programming a card-reader deck to simulate a game of baseball on the mainframe ... and about the same time Texas Instruments was coming out with "programmable" pocket calculators ... I think you had to stick some tiny little cards into those to program them. .

Memories of a previous life:-
The TI57 was programmable without the magnetic trip.
The TI58 was the one with the magnetic memory strip.
used them for some pretty serious algorithms in the 70's.
Life would have been SOOOOOOO much easier if laptops had been around a decade or so earlier.

Borned on 07-14-2016:

Maker's mark stamped on bottom of barrel, a Krieger SS No.4 heavy sporter, 1:8" twist, 5R rifling, length had to be 26" on the 26 Ripmoor:



Upper left side of barrel:



Ready to hunt:



The armchair hunter:



Low scope mounting, 30mm-tubed, low as it will go, despite the Warne 20-MOA Picatinny and Burris X-treme Tacticool low rings on a Winchester M70:



The Warne base is a really nice fit on the M70:



Four pieces of brass fired to check the chamber, loaded with 140-grain A-Max, F-215 primer, and 84.0 grains of US869 powder, 3100 fps for starters???:







Well, 84.0 grains of US869 is a starting load for the 26 Nosler, supposed to give 3111 fps, max load is supposed to be 88.0 grains for 3251 fps.
Definitely no signs of pressure in the 26 Ripmoor,
but Rusty McGee says the appearance of the primer indent indicates a stronger firing pin spring may be needed:



I'll use the Go Gage to set my make-do dies until custom dies can be had.
First time out, the loaded ammo was put together without the go gage, and it chambered with a snug feeling,
maybe I was headspacing on the Winchester extractor, as some say is sufficient.

If the "Ultimate Shadow" stock shoots as is (spot epoxy bedding of recoil lug, and sanded out barrel channel that formerly housed a 7mmRemmag) ...
I will want for nothing fancier, except maybe a B&C Medalist, olive drab with black spider web.


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From the first four once-fired cases, the 26 Ripmoor brass averaged 2.597" in length.
Trimmed to 2.590", gross water capacity averages 95.9 grains.

The 26 Nosler case capacity is quoted as 93.0 grains of water in the latest NOSLER RELOADING GUIDE 8.
I have also seen it claimed to be 93.5 to 96.4 grains of water in other sources.

So the 26 Ripmoor loading data should be interchangeable with 26 Nosler data.



Some maximal loads, with RIP certified MAP for the 26 Ripmoor being same as the SAAMI certified MAP for the 26 Nosler: 65,000 psi



VvN570, H870, and Retumbo all look good.
I'll try these over the chronograph and compare to QuickLOAD.
It is pretty close on the US869 to what the Nosler manual says for the 26 Nosler.
That was the top velocity powder for Nosler.
Not for the 26 Ripmoor, maybe.
And Nosler found that RL-33 was maxed out at 3110 fps, next to dead last on velocity for the powders they tried.
So Canuck, I think I will pass on RL-33, even Retumbo might make RL-33 eat dust.


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That's good performance RIP. Be interesting to see what it is really capable of.

quote:

Originally posted by DJS:
That's good performance RIP. Be interesting to see what it is really capable of.

Thanks for the reply, DJS.
Aussie powders: That ADI AR2218 is supposed to be the same thing as the H50BMG available to me here, eh?
So QuickLOAD tested vastly different lots of powders for that kind of finding.
AR2218 beats H50BMG by over 100 fps.
I better add a trial of my lot of H50BMG, along with Retumbo, H870, VvN570, and US869.

Thanks again to Nosler for working out all the nice load data for the 26 Ripmoor.
They claim US869 (ball powder made in St. Marks, FL, USA) to be one the best all-around powder choices for the 26 Nosler.
From the Nosler manual, all for 26" barrel:

100-grain bullets (Ballistic Tip or Partition): 3961 fps with 99.0 grains of US869 (112 % compressed load)

120-grain bullets (Ballistic Tip or E-Tip): 3717 fps with 94.0 grains of US869 (108 % compressed load)

123 and 125-grain bullets (Custom Competition and Partition): 3598 fps with 93.0 grains of US869 (106 % compressed load)*
*"most accurate (and fastest) powder tested"

129/130-grain bullets (AccuBond Long Range and AccuBond0): 3471 fps with 92.0 grains of US869 (108 % compressed load)*
*"most accurate (and fastest) powder tested"

140 and 142-grain bullets (AccuBond, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, Partition, AccuBond Long Range): 3251 fps with 88.0 grains of US869 (103 % compressed load)
Fastest, but not most accurate load tested.

Most accurate (26 Nosler) with this powder (US869) and the 140-grain bullets was the 84.0-grain/3111-fps load (98%, non-compressed) used for initial fire-forming of 26 Ripmoor.

I must say there was a lot of air left in the 26 Ripmoor with this powder charge and the 140-grain A-Max at 3.385" COL.
Plenty of room to work up from the 84.0-grain starting load.

Will chronograph in the 26 Ripmoor to see how the vastly improved throat and non-rebated case works on the velocity.

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