Just wondering if anyone is still using the 25 Souper and how you like it. Any favorite loads?

I have a 25 Souper, a rechambered 250-3000 Ruger 77 RSI. It was rechambered to 250AI, but I couldn't get it to feed, so I got a new Ruger barrel and rechambered it to 25 Souper. Using Winchester/Olin brass, there is a 1 grain difference in weight when both a reformed once fired 25 Souper and a once fired 257 Roberts case are filled to the top of the neck, or at least that is what I saw on my scale, so I'd say drop back 5% on the 257 Roberts data and go forward from there. I'm using H4895 and 100 grain Partitions to get 2900+/- fps from the 18.5" barrel. I think that I could go up 3 grains of powder, but the muzzle blast is bad enough with that short barrel.

Jeff

Thanks for the info. I have a Vanguard in 243 sitting around and was thinking about making a souper out of it. Maybe a 20" barrel. Do you neck up 243's or down 260's?

I rather like necking down whenever I can...the case will lengthen, the amount depending on the difference in caliber and also thicken so I can match the chamber by turning more easily.

I would make a chamber cast or get a chamber drawing to be sure of the measurements, then try a few 7-08's and a few 260 to see which ends up with the best fit and the least amount of mucking about...maybe Lapua 260??

The Souper has the same case volume as the 25WSSM so you could use that data for openers.

Luck

I've made 100 25 Souper cases from Winchester/Olin 243 brass. I prefer to neck up, using Imperial Wax, whenever possible.

223 or 243 WSSM Federal to 25 WSSM.
25-06 Winchester/Olin to 256 Newton.
30-06 Winchester/Olin to 338-06.
284 Winchester to 25-284, 6.5-284, and 338-284.
Etc.

JEff

The 25 Souper seems like a really good round. What advantage does it have over the 257 Roberts or Roberts AI? Not nocking the Souper, just wondering what the advantage is. It would seem all work well in a typical short action.

Loaded to the same pressure I have trouble seeing how the 25 Souper brings anything to the table. Even in a short action. If you have a long action to me the Roberts with the bullet seated out makes a better choice.

If you prefer the shape of the 243 over the 257R case then go for it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ramrod340:
Loaded to the same pressure I have trouble seeing how the 25 Souper brings anything to the table. Even in a short action. If you have a long action to me the Roberts with the bullet seated out makes a better choice. /QUOTE]
X 2 every time! roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ramrod340:
If you have a long action to me the Roberts with the bullet seated out makes a better choice. /QUOTE]
X 2 every time! roger

Try actually shooting the 257 Roberts short and long through a cronograph and then tell us if you think there is any real advantage. You might gain 50-75fps tops if you are lucky. The 257 Roberts in a short action does just fine, and is perhaps why no one has brought out a factory 257-08 cartridge.

quote:

You might gain 50-75fps tops if you are lucky. The 257 Roberts in a short action does just fine, and is perhaps why no one has brought out a factory 257-08 cartridge.

Not saying the long action will give you 100s of FPS. I simply prefer the Roberts in a long or at least intermediate action. From personal experience with LOOOONG nosler bullets I was seeing about 75-90fps with bullet seated as long as possible vs the std oal. Short bullets less if any gain.

If I'm building a rifle I would simply grab the long action over short. Since I had the long action might as well seat the bullet out as long as possible. Gain as much net capacity as I can heck it is now free.

All that said someone wants a short action great, they have never been my interest. Even in a short action loaded to the same pressure in MY OPINION since I've not loaded a 25 souper you won't see enough difference to worry about.

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ramrod340:
If you have a long action to me the Roberts with the bullet seated out makes a better choice. /QUOTE]
X 2 every time! roger

Try actually shooting the 257 Roberts short and long through a cronograph and then tell us if you think there is any real advantage. You might gain 50-75fps tops if you are lucky. The 257 Roberts in a short action does just fine, and is perhaps why no one has brought out a factory 257-08 cartridge.

Matt are you talking about a .257 with a 120 grain bullet seated out in a long action compared to the same bullet in a short action? If we take it a step further and do a 160 grain bullet in a 7x57 short action vs long action, what than?
We might really have something to talk about if there were std. 25 caliber bullets with a mass of 137grains.The real contrast that should be made is short action 25-08(super) heavy bullet vs .257 long action long throat heavy bullet and I really think that was the intent on the earlier posting.
I've been shooting the .257 long before we heard of + P . I have never shot the 25 super so I can't compare them first hand, which is the crux of the post I guess. But comparing usefull case capacity of each with long bullets, short action vs long action the .257 has to come out on top.
Had I a way to measure and maintain pressures and had a short action .257 I would gladly do what you suggest and Oehler and compare each. I don't think , however I'm inclined to make a short action .257. Usually I'm not this windy. roger

The Roberts works in a short action, but I liken it to stuffing my foot in a shoe that is too small. I can walk around, but I sure can move around better when the shoe doesn't crunch my toes. The 7x57 was designed for an intermediate action, so it only makes sense that a necked down 7x57 would work best with the same magazine length.

The Roberts obviously has the benefit of being a standard cartridge, but other than that, I'd rather have a 25 Souper in a short action. It is just a natural fit.

I did a test way back and made a 257 Roberts on a short action 700. 24" Barrel by McGowen. I made a good tight chamber and throated it to give me .018 to the leade with Nosler Solid Base 100 gr bullets. I then fired factory Win [I think] ammo and it was anemic to say the least. I forget what it was but the 100gr was only doing 2900 or close. Hell, all I wanted was the fireformed cases to make sure I had cases that were perfect for this particular chamber.
I then worked up MAX loads with several different powders and Sierra 117 bullets seated out to get full case capacity but were single fed of course. These were also fired over an Oehler Chronograph and the velocities noted.
The same work-up was done [same powders and bullets to max] with the exception of the bullets being seated deeply enough to feed through the short action. If I remember case capacity was reduced by about 3.0 grains.
The interesting thing was the deeply seated bulleted cases only lost about 19 fps over the ones seated out to allow full case loading. This, to me, seems trivial as I don`t think ANY deer etc will notice the 19 fps difference as long as proper bullets and placement is used.
I have built MANY 25 Soupers for people along the way and all are VERY happy with the results. I consider the 25 Souper as good or better than the Roberts as I get better velocity/accuracy with a shorter barrel. I still shoot mine [Mod 600 Remington/Kevlar stocked]every chance I get for about everything here in Oregon. I use cases made from Lake City National Match 308 brass as it likes them best and they last forever. I shoot only the Nosler 100 GR Solid Base bullets too. I have killed deer, elk and one black bear with it. I like it for many reasons like light weight [6.0]short [22" bbl] and quick pointing and handling and it`s wonderful accuracy. I am considering bumping the weight up a bit with the addition of a Zeiss or ? but love the old Redfield 2 3/4 LPWF it has worn for over 20 years. We`ll see! I know this will rankle the lovers of the 257 Roberts and I have built, owned and shot several Roberts along the way but I Love the 25 Souper.
Aloha, Mark

quote:

I made a good tight chamber and throated it to give me .018 to the leade with Nosler Solid Base 100 gr bullets.

I'm confused . If the chamber was set up to give .018 leade on a 100gr from a short action. How were you then able to seat the bullet out to max length?

The lighter and/or shorter the bullet the less effect seating the bullet long will have. I think the perfect solution is chamber a roberts in long or short the future owners choice. If one prefers the 243 case over the Roberts then again future owners choice.

Don't have one but, do know that in van Zwoll's LR Hunting book there's some data and he likes the caliber. You might look there. There's also data in A-Square's any shot you want manual.

Thanks for all the comments. I wasn't really looking for velocity comparison as much as accuracy. I'd probably stay with at least 115 grainers and a short barrel, 22" or less. I'm looking to make something that is somewhat light to carry and fast handling. Max shooting distance would be 300yds and most of the time under 100yds. Whitetail here in PA where I hunt is not like the western side of the country. It's alot of mountains with thick hardwoods and once in a while you might break out on the edge of a field where shots will be under 300yds. Most of the time less than 200yds. As I've gotten older I've found that I have less interest in toting heavy rifles around and if you ever hunted in thick scrub oaks or mountain laural you'd understand, especially when you may have upwards of a foot or more of snow in the ground.

by spec, a 25 souper and a 257 roberts are the same length .. no advantage, which is why there's not a 257 rem/win/sav/ruger/whizbang ... get the bob, build it on a short action, and have a ball

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
by spec, a 25 souper and a 257 roberts are the same length .. no advantage, which is why there's not a 257 rem/win/sav/ruger/whizbang ... get the bob, build it on a short action, and have a ball

You lost me on that one Jeff. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
You lost me on that one Jeff. roger

why?
its a simple LENGTH issue ..
saami for a 257 roberts is 2.8ish .. and saami for a 260 rem is 2.8 ish, a 25 souper would also be 2.8ish, otherwise, why bother ... both fit in a short action .. can you load EITHER longer? yeah .. doesn't matter..

the 257 roberts, without anythign wildcatted about it, does what the man wants, exactly, other than using a resized 308 case.

try ginko in the mornings,

250 Savage will do anything the Bob will and use much less powder doing it.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
You lost me on that one Jeff. roger

the 257 roberts, without anythign wildcatted about it,

try ginko in the mornings,

Why that restriction when you are comparing it,already, to a wildcat.
As for your Ginko I suggest you get it in suppository form . roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
As for your Ginko I suggest you get it in suppository form . roger

Is that your normal method of ingestion, or have you found superior results from using this method? I mean, since you suggest this as the superior form of ingestion, you must be speaking from experience.

you might try READING what is writen, rather than attempting to be, well, i don't have anything nice to say on that.

a 257x308, with the bullet 1 caliber in the neck, offers ZERO improvement over the 257 roberts, at the same length...

2.8" is 2.8" ...

get it now? or perhaps you might quintuple your ginko ingestion, per your self-perscribed method

You certainly are a work of art, Jeff. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
You certainly are a work of art, Jeff. roger

thanks roger.. i only replied in kind to your lead.
you asked for an answer to

quote:

by spec, a 25 souper and a 257 roberts are the same length

which, frankly, is obvious.
you decided to pretend offense .. good for you .. and suggested an alternative means of ingestion .. i only asked that you follow your own suggestion, but up the dosage.

rather funny, to me, that you take affense at your own color of the reply.

Sidestepping the length of action and daily vitamins debate, here is my take on it.

I have always wanted to build one, the issue for me was I have on hand several thousand 06' cases, so I went with the bigger version.

Accuracy shouold be good if your gunsmith knows his business and you use a decent barrel, with a 1-10 twist. Depending you the finished length you should be able to get somewhere in the 2800 - 2900fps using the 115 - 120gr bullets with the newer powders available today.

You mentioned using a 115gr, and that would also be my first choice, but I wouldn't look too far past giving the 110gr Accubond a try either.

You might also consider a look at the canted land barrels while your shopping. If your using a new barrel and not a factory take off. I put a 1-9 28" Broughton 5C on my 25-06 AI. I built it for shooting long range and using some heavier custom bullets. Clean up on it is a dream, and fouling even shooting light jacketed match type bullets has been almost no existant. I am running 120gr bullets to a comfortable 3350fps, and could go higher but it's not necessary.

Personally I say "get-r-done", and build you up a nice stalking rifle that you will have fun with.

Thanks Mike/TX, that's the kind of anwers I was looking for. I already have the barrel, a Shilen with 1:10 twist. As far as Jeffeoso's response with the overall length, I don't dispute that. I do ask since the trim length is around .200" shorter on the Souper then wouldn't the seated bullet at the same overall length be more intrusive on the powder capacity with the same bullet than the Souper? In other words does the shorter/fatter Souper case aid in accuracy and powder capacity with the same bullets.

vip,
i am a bit of a wildcatter, having spent roughly 12k on wildcats in the last decade. if you seat the same bullet, on the same crimp prove, the 308 based case will be both shorter, and greatly reduced in capacity, compared to the x57 based ..

however, seating the same length, the smaller case will have a greater % available, but still less volume available ..

sure, you can do it, but the reason no one did it is that there's ZERO advantage over the roberts.. in terms of fitting the action length, making great velocity, and accuracy

my experience with the roberts has been universally accurate .. generally the most accurate over all round, in the small stuff, that i've seen, in a hunting gun. my own first 257, flaigg on a 1903a3, shoots much better at 2.8 then when seated out to 06 lngth

not a single sole will state a well made 708 or 260 actually would outshoot a 6.5x55 or 7x57, if the same care and barrel and ammo are made with the level of care...

heck, 30-30s are very accurate, in a contender...

If a Roberts is wanted then fine. But building on a long action with the reason of seating bullets as long as possible to squeeze every last fps out of the Roberts then why not a 25-06? Like I said to start if the Roberts is the goal fine but if speed is the reason for the long action then why?

8mmwapiti

It's not the long action that works best with the Roberts. It is the intermediate action where the Roberts fits best. I have my Roberts in a action that has a 3.125" magazine. I once had a Roberts in a 2.8" short action and didn't like seating the heavier bullets below the shoulder. I'm not talking about below the junction of the neck and the shoulder, but seating the bullet below the shoulder. This was the situation with bullets such as the 115 Nosler.

I don't think most people are out squeeze every last fps. The Roberts will never give screaming velocity no matter the action length. It's simply a matter of using an action that doesn't cramp the cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by duckboat:
It's not the long action that works best with the Roberts. It is the intermediate action where the Roberts fits best. I have my Roberts in a action that has a 3.125" magazine. I once had a Roberts in a 2.8" short action and didn't like seating the heavier bullets below the shoulder. I'm not talking about below the junction of the neck and the shoulder, but seating the bullet below the shoulder. This was the situation with bullets such as the 115 Nosler.

I don't think most people are out squeeze every last fps. The Roberts will never give screaming velocity no matter the action length. It's simply a matter of using an action that doesn't cramp the cartridge.

10-4, x 2 roger

Every reloader should aspire to eek out ALL the velocity they can from ANY and EVERY cartridge by using all the techniques available...it DOESN'T matter that there might be or is a larger cased cartridge available.

Anyone who has messed around with the quarter bore for any length of time knows full well just how close the various case sizes can come to the larger case by using selected bullets, powders, seating and barrel lengths.

If you use that criteria the you would soon escalate to monster size by the meer fact of incremental increase in cartridge case..."well if this one is this size then why not go just a little bigger and go to a ...., and if that does this, why not go just a little bit farther and go to this case"...etc, etc, etc. No one would get any work done worrying about going to a larger size.

Why even wildcat or do "something new"...the Roberts or the 250 Savage OR the 25 Souper wouldn't be here today without someone doing a bit of "I wonder".

Maybe peole are finally realizing they can gain extra velocity just by seating the bullet out level or shorter than the bottom of the neck and WELL past what SAAMI specs are...realize that SAAMI specs are just a way to STANDARDIZE for manufacturing purposes and safety, but the standards are NOT cast in stone.

I did some test with a 284 Win...15" rechambered 7mmBR XP-100, so I didn't have to be concerned with magazine length. I used mostly Speer 110gr and Hornady 154 gr SP's loaded to Hornady/Hodgdon #26 manual specs and got what was expected with the short barrel over the chrono...~2400fs

I rethroated to seat the bullet base to the base of the neck and ~0.010" off the lands. I gained ~5 gr H2O case volume and an additional ~75-100fs...2470 - 2500fs. Not a lot, but all it cost was a throat job which ANYONE can do by hand for the rental cost of a rental throater...about 40 bucks.

The problem is always arguments of what CAN'T be done instead of what CAN be done or getting locked into something that is supposedly locked into place rather than looking at those parameters to see how to go about stepping outside the envelope...just a little...to increase performance in ANY rifle or caliber.

We all seem to jump on the "I'm RIGHT and you're not...instead of HEY...just look at how neat this all is.

My 250 SavAI is within ~25-50 fs of a standard Roberts OR a 25 Souper...a 257 Roberts AI is about the same compared to the 25-06...each with selected bullets...but the larger cases will always do much better with heavier bullets than the smaller cases...

So what...they ALL will take down the game that they were designed for, so pick the size for the game and go have fun.

When these arguments come up everyone forgets the fact of CHOICE...without which we would still be throwing rocks and sticks.

LUCK

Nicely put FOOBAR. roger

Bohica, I always enjoy your comments. From what I have read, I thought you were a 250AI fan? Nice to talk to you again, hope your doing alright, DW

I have a Rem 722 short action in 257 Roberts and I can not load 85 grain Nosler BT's to a length that will fit in the magazine. The bullets need to be so deep only the tapered front of the bullet is in the neck and thus they can't be held firmly (or at all).

It's not just about speed. I use other bullets and am mostly happy with it but I am limited in a short action from using the entire range of bullets available.

quote:

Originally posted by makeminestainless:
I have a Rem 722 short action in 257 Roberts and I can not load 85 grain Nosler BT's to a length that will fit in the magazine. The bullets need to be so deep only the tapered front of the bullet is in the neck and thus they can't be held firmly (or at all).

It's not just about speed. I use other bullets and am mostly happy with it but I am limited in a short action from using the entire range of bullets available.

PM Jeffesso, He probably has the answer. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

PM Jeffesso, He probably has the answer. roger

to the poster -- how long does this combo require the OAL to be inorder to crimp?

roger -
.. blah blah blah ..

The 722 is not really a very good action for the Roberts as the mag length is ~2.85" and the Roberts needs a COAL of about 3.05" for the Nosler bullet.

But you can always single load the first round at a longer length or pick out a bullet with a sharper ogive and shorter length like the Hornady 87 SP and get a 2.8" COAL and about .300" deep seat. Throating can help also...Or rechamber to 25 Souper... and solve the problem easily.

Lots of ways to solve problems.

LUCK

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jeffeosso:
vip,




not a single sole will state a well made 708 or 260 actually would outshoot a 6.5x55 or 7x57, if the same care and barrel and ammo are made with the level of care...

QUOTE]

Which short action would you be shooting the 6.5x55 or 7x57 out of? Jeffeosso I think that you're missing the point. I want to stay with the relatively heavier/longer bullets, so wouldn't the souper allow me to do this without seating the bullet too deep into the case?

Vip,
hmm, i am not being clear .. AT A GIVEN LENGTH
if the 257 has X useable capacity with Y bullet, and the souper, at the same length, has X or less useable capacity, then you gain nothing.

the barnes bullets are the current longest readily available .257 bullets .. longer than even the old hornady 140gr ..

x57 rounds are US - COMMERICALLY built on the same length action as the 308..

I have 7x64 on a std 98, 7x57 and 708 on mexican mausers ..

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Vip,

x57 rounds are US - COMMERICALLY built on the same length action as the 308..

QUOTE]


?????? If you look at my second post I am limited to the magazine length of a short action. I could fit a 308 in it but no way a X57. Isn't the parent case of the 257 Roberts the 7X57. I haven't seen the 7x57 in short actions. The Mexican is not a short action but instead an intermediate length action which is ideal for the X57's. I know SAAMI set the overall length of the bob at 2.780" but that doesn't mean it's the ideal O.A.L. for the heavier bullets. Here's a question for you Jeffeoso, if both calibers are seated to the same o.a.l. with the same bullet but the souper is trimmed around .200" shorter, is the bullet seated the same depth in each case?