I've seen the ever so common .35 Whelen, the 375/06, 375 Whelen AI and heard of a 400 Whelen but never seen that cartridge or dimensions or a picture of a loaded round. Is there anybody out there that has one? How about anything larger on the old 30/06 case like a .416/06 or a .404/06 or..........?

snell

When you get up to 40 caliber you are at the practical limit for an 06 based wildcat. Whether it's a .404, .405, .416 it doesn't really make much difference. I suppose you could theoretically go all the way to 45 caliber by making a case that headspaces on the case mouth but my question would be, "Why?" Back when the 400 Whelen was developed there may have been a good reason for doing so (brass availibility) but today, the validity of even that old wildcat is questionable.

I have a 400 Whelen in my collection but no photo. I could take one tomorrow when that relentless Arizona sun rises, if you'd like to see it.



Ray

My case is a blown out 280 case. The shoulder is .458. I used it for just about ever cal from 243 to 416. Shown is the 280, 340 and a dummy for the 416. The shoulder is not sharp on the 416 but only case I had in the desk when I took the picture. It is used by my buddy in Alaska. The 411 Hawke is basically the same.

Thanks for the pictures!
So from left to right it is a 458/06, 416, and a 340. What kind of speeds with what bullet weights is your buddy or you getting with the larger ones. (458 and 416)?
Thanks for the info.....

snell

i think you misread his post. from left to right it's the 416, 340, 284 and an empty original 280 case. As you can see on the 416, there is not much shoulder left to headspace on.

ray

quote:

think you misread his post. from left to right it's the 416, 340, 284 and an empty original 280 case. As you can see on the 416, there is not much shoulder left to headspace on.

Yep you got it correct. That case was a dummy I had in the desk. The shoulder is a touch rounded. Fully formed the shoulder is .458 with a 416 bullet. Hawke uses a .454 shoulder and .411. I agree it isn't much. However with a couple pieces of tape on the back of the case I couldn't force it to chamber. 40deg has to help with that.

416PDK Load data.

Case length 2.47" My chamber is set for 2.5" case but net volume would not be higher since the bullet would just fill the neck
Volume 82.2gr water
OAL 3.4"

Powders tried H335, 4320 and IMR4895.
4895 gave best results and choosen as standard
All loads are IMR 4895

Bullet Charge Velocity
350Speer
68 2400
67 2385 Most Accurate
66 2365
65 2350

300 Hawk
70 2570 Accurate
69 2555
68 2525

400Hawk
67 2205
66 2190
65 2160 Accurate

We found the 400PT too long used up to much case.

Thanks for the clarification, when I was originally reading it my 4 year old son and my wife were both trying to gab at me and I didn't quite put it all together, got it now.
I'm actually impressed with the numbers, not a cross canyon shooter but a Moose and Bear thumper for sure.
Tell me about terminal performance on game if you have any first or second hand experiences.

ramrod340, how does the 416-06 compare to a 416 taylor? just curious. i'm very inclined to build one or the other. looks cool to build. dave

quote:

how does the 416-06 compare to a 416 taylor? just curious. i'm very inclined to build one or the other. looks cool to build

The Taylor will beat the 416PDK by 2-300fps. I didn't use a strain guage on this rifle but based on how the brass acted I would guess 65,000-67,000. The Taylor will give the above gain at around 60,000. With big heavy bullets you just can't beat case capacity. Only advantage is the 06 based case gives you one more down.

If I was going to play with the 411-416 on an 06 based case I would use cylinder brass and a 3.6" action.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

400Hawk
67 2205
66 2190
65 2160 Accurate

Ramrod, I see preassures above 65000.... Would you take them to Africa?
Beating .450-400 NE 400/2150 from a '06 case is impressive!!

quote:

Ramrod, I see preassures above 65000.... Would you take them to Africa?
Beating .450-400 NE 400/2150 from a '06 case is impressive!!

Bent.
I guess I had not really thought about it until I read your post this morning. When I first built it I had been planning to try and write some Articles to get published. Taking my case from 243 up to 416. I had chosen 416 vs 411 because at the time the barrel and bullets were easier to come by. Then several issues caused me to drop the project. Key one is someone said "Wow that sounds just like what Rocky Gibbs did with the 06". Up until then I had not even heard of him. Short story who would want to hear of reinventing the wheel.

Snell while I think about it. I killed a lot of paper with it. Only animal I shot with it was a 300#+ hog at about 50 yds. Right behind the ear bullet exited and he dropped on the spot and didn't move. I know my buddy has taken at least 1 Bull Moose, 2 black bear and did the follow-up shot on a Brown Bear. I think it was the 350 on the Moose and blacks and a 400 on the Brown. The brown had taken a 250 from a 338 and the shooter short cycled. The 400 broke the on side shoulder and he dropped. Both bullets were in the shoulder area of the offside. Who knows he might have been on the way down.

Back to the Africa issue. I think I would need to do some more testing and get a better handle on pressure and performance of the 400. While a small turbo engine turning 10,000 RPM and a big truck engine both make 300HP I feel safer betting my life on the truck engine.

If my data is correct it is taking me 25,000psi more to reach what the 450/400 makes.

So if a person were to build a .416 on an '06 case and wanted to be able to shoot the 400 grain bullets what would be an appropriate twist rate for that animal? If I had a .416 bullet in my hands or the dimensions of one I could do the math and figure it but beings how I have your attention I thought I'd ask.
I have hunted with a 30/06 most of my life and have a 9.3x62 that is getting put together now, I think it would be a natural progression to go with a .416 on an '06 case.
If pressure were kept around the same as an '06 or a 9.3x62 what would the numbers reveal?
Thanks gentlemen

Good place to start is look at the 411 Hawke.

As to twist mine was a 14.

Well if I was really going to do it again I would start with an action that can handle a 3.6" OAL. I would choose 2.6" cylinder brass. While the cylinder brass won't give you any more net capacity by itself it will give you more neck to hold the bullet. The longer oal is where you gain net capacity. If my rough calculations are correct you gain about 10% net case capacity by going to 3.6" this would help allow you to lower pressure. More or less the difference between a 9.3x62 and a 9.3x66.

Check out this site for info and pics of the 411 Hawk.

http://www.z-hat.com/HawkCartridges.htm

I like ramrod felt the need to build a .416/06, our case dimensions differ a bit but not enough to matter. Dave at PTG has the neck dia at only .438 so am in the process of firing then sizing then outside turning. So far the rifle is really accurate using rcbs 350 gr cast and 350 speers for initial pressures. As to velocity they should be the same weight for weight as the 411 hawk. as I progress will post results. Lynn

quote:

I like ramrod felt the need to build a .416/06,

Glad to see at least one more twisted mind. Curious as to your dimensions and results.

My case started as a 280rem case. Shoulder moved forward to 2.17" and blown out to .458. Neck Dia is .44 with I believe .005 clearance. I end up turning the necks a little more to even things out. My max case length is 2.5 simply because that is were the neck/throater gave the shortest bullet jump. Since a longer case would just hold bullet not powder I didn't see it as an issue. My other wildcats on this case are 2.54.

I used Norma 280Rem case for my testing. The last cases formed were with AHR basic brass.

Finally made it to the range with the .416/280. Cool day in the mid 40's, windy and switching back and forth. Initial run in win cases as the rem cases give too much neck dia. cases necked up and fireformed with 50 gr. H4895 under 350 gr. RCBS cast GC bullet, av. vel. 1966fps, not corrected to muzzle, had to move chrono out to avoid roof shadow. Cast shot fairly well as the weren't culled or weighed just lubed and shot. Initial jacked run with Speer 350gr and H4895 starting at 61 grains for 2292fps to 65gr at 2367fps, best group at 64gr at 2361 about 1". Turned the rest of speers lose on gongs at 250 and 325 no problem kind of surprising how well they carry up. Have you tried Win 748 in your 416? My case dimensions are length 2.480" shoulder dia .459" neck dia. .438" from head of case to neck/shoulder juncture 2.150" shoulder angle 40 degrees. I will work up more loads and post as I go. Later Lynn

quote:

Initial jacked run with Speer 350gr and H4895 starting at 61 grains for 2292fps to 65gr at 2367fps, best group at 64gr at 2361

Your results are very close to what I had.

I never tried 760. Looks to be a bit slow to me. Based on the data below. VArget would be worth looking at. I did get an email from my Buddy. He said the last 3 or 4 years he has used nothing. but Woodleigh 340s. Said he picked up several 100 on closeout. To date they have taken a Caribou, black bear, moose and 2 whitetails. I asked WHITETAILS??? said he had got used to the rifle and took it on two trips back home to LA. Said max shot would be 100yds anyway. All one shot. The bear did a 360 and dropped. Moose stood for about 15secs and dropped. Smaller animals dropped on the spot. Ony bullet found was from the bear.

He said he had tried 4895 and then said what the heck and tried IMR 4064. This is the load data he sent me. No pressure signs at all. Using Cylinder brass to start trimed to 2.49". Some cases now on their. 5th loading.
340 Woodleigh IMR 4064
68.5 2435
68 2430 MOA
67.5 2420
67 2410
66.5 2405
66 2395
65 2375
64 2360
63 2340

He said since he was gaining only 5FPS for each .5 gr and had a MOA group he loads 68grs and a CCI Std primer.

the 416 on the 06 is tempting but the 66 brass is the better choice...yes 400@ 2150 is d.g. territory but 350's @ 2300 will have the same energy and lower preasure wont it? s.d. of the 350"s is .289! that is good s.d.

416x66 will work great on an 06. it will use the extra mag space and no bolt work to get higher velocity or lower preasure but i cant argue the cheap brass thing...

Boom Stick

First let me agree with you. I think in this case the 340-350 makes the most since. My buddy zeros about 2" high at 100 and has a 220Yd point blank for a 6" kill zone.

As to the 66 case or leaving an 06 cylinder case longer I also agree if you are loading in a longer than 3.4" magazine and rifle.

The drawing below shows a 416 case made with 62, 66 and cylinder 06 left at 2.5". I then set a 350gr bullet deep enough to give an COAL of 3.37" so it would work in a 3.4" mag. With the 06 the bullet is .42 in the case with about .38 in the neck. The red shoulder is mine and the green is Lynns.(Sorry the drawing when copied to jpg color sucks in order from left to right 62 shoulder, Lynns, mine and the 66) I doubt if the 66 case would give much if any net capacity. Now if you had a 3.6" magazine and seated the bullet out you would gain. While you could still use the 2.5" 06 case you would only have around .22" in the neck. Questionable as to holding the bullet.

So in my opinion. In the basic 06 magazine the 66 is wasted. In the 3.6" mag it makes sense.

Sure wish you guys would change the subject. I have an FN action heavy stock and the reamer is still in the cabinet.

I know what you mean.
I have an 03 action that I swore was going to be a 35 Whelen but then I got to thinking 400 Whelen, now I'm really thinking .416/06, .416 Hawk or something there abouts!
Trouble is I have 2 rifles underway and a third makes no sense, no sense at all but I might just do it.

quote:

400 Whelen

One thing many people forget is that the 400 Whelen was improved. The shoulder was .458 I believe. So the real only difference between the 416/06 and the 400Whelen is .05". If I do it again I might consider the 411. The idea of plinking loads with .410 handgun bullets is appealing. It will be something to think about after I return from Namibia in May.

... The 9.3x 64 Brenneke will by and large fit in an 06 action ...I have necked one to take a .416 bullet and as it is I don,t think there is enough shoulder to reliably head space......408 would possibly be good but it would be a good case for RIP,s 395 caliber...

quote:

I have necked one to take a .416 bullet and as it is I don,t think there is enough shoulder to reliably head space.

It really doesn't take much. My case has a .458 40 deg and it will headspace fine. The 9.3 has a .474. Don't know if the 17deg would be an issue. Capacity would be 3-4grs less than the 416 Taylor with no belt.

If you are strictly talking about the 30-06 case as a parent then a cylindrical case made from the 30-06 case will be .470" at the case mouth. This would accommodate a bullet designed for the 11.2x72 Schuler (.440") and would have to headspace on the case mouth.

In actual practice there have been many rifles made to accommodate a 30-06 expanded to receive a .429" bullet, sometimes called the 444-06. This also has to headspace on the case mouth.

Wow I thought headspacing on my shoulder was pushing it. Thanks for the info I'll have to do some research.

I found a 44-06. A short case around 1.285" long?

A .416 or a .411 on a opened up .240 Weatherby would be cute! A scaled down .458 Winmag and .550 Magnum! .416 Stright Belted!

quote:

A .416 or a .411 on a opened up .240 Weatherby would be cute!

Yep I agree it would look cute. I wonder how much capacity you would give up to the 06 case since the dia just in front of the belt is down to .458". Guess I'm not curious enough to draw it out.

actualy you could go to 423!

quote:

actualy you could go to 423!

No, actually .429" to .432". The 444 Marlin has a case mouth outside diameter of .453". Hence, a straight case on the 240 Weatherby could accommodate bullets intended for the 444 Marlin. I don't think a truly straight case is very condusive to easy chambering though.